UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[Khafee]

What I would like to know is, if the UAE is selling us M29's, what will it replace them with in it's fleet?

It simply cannot remove 68 aircraft from its inventory and leave a gaping hole in its capability without, replacing it with some other front line aircrafts.

Well said!!! Sanity on this thread!!!

Thank You Sir.

 

[ziaulislam]

issues would inducting cost
spares, how much technology transfer and help from France
armament and missles and french allowance for indigneous systems
i have no doubt if we throw money this cnabe done, as french MRCA is over

however, i still think this is not cost effective unless
UAE are giving them up for nearly free, and French are at least more generous in tot and refurbhsing than what they were with india upgrades and USA is blocking any further f-16s

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I won't rule out some sort of relevance with the recent overtures regarding Raheel Pasha's projected taking command of the Muslim Military Alliance. Come Jan 20 and we'll see much more. For a preview, if NATO/EU etc. find themselves under receiving ends with such a ferocious venom, what chances KSA/GCC folks have??? Mr. Trump's rage is all for the folks who can't fend for themselves - even Senator McCain is a loser!!!!

 

[The Eagle]

Ah! that is the main contention point, now, isn't it? India
would have "paid" for insurances that no such deal was
to happen within the Rafale deal and so on, right?
Well, let's suppose they did ...

In such cases, the politics favour the bold. I remember
things like Israeli vedettes mysteriously leaving their
French port and their maintenance documents fleeing to
Switzerland and later settling in the Levant.

One could imagine easily that an UAE deal for Rafales
would include a few too many MICAs or an associated
contract for parts for the Dash-9s only for these to be
transferred to Pakistan despite assurances to the contrary ...

Of course, France will play the innocent virgin/victim but
let's be realists and understand that arms sales are still
sales for all their complexity and that money talks loud?

So France signs a legit series of contracts with "trust-in-cheek"
conditions but once the Rafales have landed in Abu Dhabi,
the UAE change their minds about those and 2000-9s with
their full kits change adresses 2000 kliks to the East.

Of course, that will bring a nominal cold front over our relation
but I somehow think it will warm in time for the next contract?

​

I will say that for once, I disagree with Horus and a couple other;
those dashnines are better planes era for era & year for year than
the IIIs and 5s when Pakistan acquired them.
They compare favourably with the I/TI being transformed in Bharat.*
Of course, they'll suffer size and capacity comparison with Rafales H
but for now, there is to be less of the latter so . . .

Plus it brings about a simple question : Is Pakistan going to attack India?
Because if the answer is no, that batch with Rose type works will be
more than enough to gap to the next generation as ad peeps call it.
They'd replace the Mirages that are beginning to be really old with an
overall level on par or better than the F-16s just in case and while JF-17
finishes production and thus secure most needs for PAF until a brand
new aircraft of tomorrow can come in in numbers, whichever that will be.

I see no reason why it couldn't be done nor have any objections.

Have a great day all, Tay.




* About which :

Technologically ambitious and based on the integration of the latest generation equipment and systems, the first phase of the programme was completed on schedule in France.
The maiden flight of its first upgraded Mirage 2000 was completed successfully by Dassault Aviation on the 5th October 2013, following a two year development phase dedicated to the equipment kit provided by Thales including the radar, the electronic warfare suite and the mission computer. ​

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/d...nt/pr_150325_two_first_indian_mirage_2000.pdf​

But the original of that development is still the UAE's 2000-9.

Well input Sir.... got it clear though that contention was mentioned from diplomatic and recent contract point of view, which wasn't unclear until & unless your post.

Also, capability is not challenged at all, IMO, they are still better than existing in our inventory and also, I mentioned later here that we recently signed MoU with France w.r.t. JF-17 electrification that indicates about melting the ice as well as HRK pointed out, the French option was raised in Parliament as well so such developments are not blank shots but are reason of the few contacts & talks behind the doors. My bad that did not tag you earlier when it comes to Dassault and France in such matters but thanks to @Khafee for doing so. Keeping the BOLD type business aside which is indeed the part of every deal and cannot be ignored but how do you see such development that may not only bring Mirage 2000-9 but also bonus packages for other utilization i.g. JF-17 further support?

It is to be kept in mind that Indian factor is not that effective being a simple buyer (your post clarified as well) and UAE is also in business with Dassault that can have a say or can favour such environment of a possible deal.

Regards,

 

[Khafee]

Technologically ambitious and based on the integration of the latest generation equipment and systems, the first phase of the programme was completed on schedule in France.
The maiden flight of its first upgraded Mirage 2000 was completed successfully by Dassault Aviation on the 5th October 2013, following a two year development phase dedicated to the equipment kit provided by Thales including the radar, the electronic warfare suite and the mission computer. ​

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/d...nt/pr_150325_two_first_indian_mirage_2000.pdf​

But the original of that development is still the UAE's 2000-9.

When I said this, people didn't believe me, hopefully now they will.

 

[ziaulislam]

Well said!!! Sanity on this thread!!!

Thank You Sir.

even if this news is true it will take atleast 5-10 years before UAE can replace or sell its own mirages
though i still think this is unlikely and false,

 

[jupiter2007]

Only if they are coming with Discount price with no other string attached to it ..



What i don't want is that PAF has not stranded in times of war because of Logistics and Spare parts ..
now JF-17 is not fully Chinese , Pakistan has a significant input in JF .
J-10 ? when did PAF get that ?
J-31 ? really ..........

I want Pakistan Air Force to have Aircrafts from East and West, but what i am Trying to learn here, that What these Mirages will bring for PAF that J-10C/D cant ? or JF-17 block 3 Wont ..

I was giving an example. I think from a war or a conflic prospective, J-10 has not been used in any conflict, it's not mature compare to Mirage who been used and proven in many conflicts/wars.

This is what i am trying to find out that , What new Mirage 2000-9 will bring to Table , except a better payload .. unless it comes with a Good discounted price like Jordan F-16 than why buy an old Aircraft when we can get J-10 which will bring new technology on table like AESA and IRST ..
but there will be some goods attached to this deal if forwarded , like we can later negotiate with French for Support mechanism and also re-start negotiations on Package for JF .
50+ Mirages 2000-9 , replacing Mirage III/V is a welcome thing but again Payment will be the issue and UAE is willing to sell or not ? so far its just a Hot Air Balloon in the Sky ..

Don't think J-10s are free, 65 million per plane or more.

 

[HRK]

how come army is paying??? i hate book cooking, army is paid by pakistan govt, army doesnt earn a penny itslef

The Government about which you are talking allocate budget for all branches of defence to spend on their programs & acquisition but previously Army spent portion of its funds for the purchases of 13 F-16 from Jordan plz search the video of induction ceremony of that batch of F-16; previous PAF chief at that occasion on record narrate the whole incident himself that how he called the Army chief RS and explained the need for his 'support'

Secondly that was not the first occasion before that 18 F-16 blk-52+ were also paid by ARMY's budget and to make payment for F-16s Army let their 5 year development budget go to settle the payments for PAF which donated their funds for 2005 earth quack victims ..... & for this plz search Gen. Tariq Interview of last year he is original narrator of this cooperation

I don't know how you find negativity in my post & replied with totally irrelevant remarks. If two institutions of our National Defence Structure do co-operate with each other upto this extent then its appreciable it is not something which deserve idiotic remarks.

Lastly Government also does not earn penny itself; its you, me & ordinary people like us who pay taxes to Government, so plz Sir its a humble request 'SPARE ME FORM UNNECESSARY DEBATE'

I JUST STATED WHAT HAPPENED IN PAST & on the basis of this I concluded that it MAY happen again.

Reagrds,

 

[ziaulislam]

The Government about which you are talking allocate budget for all branches of defence to spend on their programs & acquisition but previously Army spent portion of its funds for the purchases of 13 F-16 from Jordan plz search the video of induction ceremony of that batch of F-16; previous PAF chief at that occasion on record narrate the whole incident himself that how he called the Army chief RS and explained the need for his 'support'

Secondly that was not the first occasion before that 18 F-16 blk-52+ were also paid by ARMY's budget and to make payment for F-16s Army let their 5 year development budget go to settle the payments for PAF which donated their funds for 2005 earth quack victims ..... & for this plz search Gen. Tariq Interview of last year he is original narrator of this cooperation

I don't know how you find negativity in my post & replied with totally irrelevant remarks. If two institutions of our National Defence Structure do co-operate with each other upto this extent then its appreciable it is not something which deserve idiotic remarks.

Lastly Government also does not earn penny itself; its you, me & ordinary people like us who pay taxes to Government, so plz Sir its a humble request 'SPARE ME FORM UNNECESSARY DEBATE'

I JUST STATED WHAT HAPPENED IN PAST & on the basis of this I concluded that it MAY happen again.

Reagrds,

its not negativity its stupidity, govt should do budget planning carefully, not randomly give money which at the end of the day goes to another branch of arm forces.

you are saying that ministry of health purchased 4 buses for ministry of education, da..
the money should have ended up with PAF and not army in first place, if army saved money it would/should have been returned to govt which would have given it to PAF or whoever it wanted to

thats who any government work, unless the govt is RAN BY THE ARMY WHICH YOUR STATEMENT SEEMS TO IMPLY

wow, i have no idea what you mean by government doesnt earn a penny?
Government is the entity we use to describe people of Pakistan??

if you have objection to that than we need to change government of Pakistan word to people of Pakistan, though it would sound foolish

 

[HRK]

Government is the entity we use to describe people of Pakistan??

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=definition+of+government

 

[MastanKhan]

@Starlord

Here is a copy of a conversation

" A coversation with a former Hellenic Air Force pilot in WAFF

Q:the Mirage 2000 is slicker than the Viper but less powerful.

A: This true.

Q : With good pilots on both sides, they are probably equal in dogfight

A: This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).

I served in an M2K fighter squadron in HAF. We analyzed tactics and combat scores against HAF F-16 squadrons all the time.

The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the Magic 2 is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).

A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16's climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.

As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.

Q: Would you agree with the statement that F-16 is a better choice for multi role missions than Mirage 2000 ?

Absolutely. The M2K is a multi-role fighter also, but its performance varies greatly among roles - whereas the Viper performs almost all missions at a very satisfactory level.

HAF M2Ks are specialized. 331's (where I served) primary role is now TASMO (naval strike with AM-39 Exocet) and 332's primary role will become Deep Strike (with SCALP EG). CAP & Air Supremacy are their secondary roles.

The F-16 sqdns OTOH undertake a number of roles such as SEAD, CAP, CAS, and numerous specialized strike missions (enemy AFBs, enemy C&C centers etc). The Viper is a much more volatile weapons system ". END

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So---basically---both these aircraft have their strengths and weaknesses---but they are so close---ie neck to neck performance with the F16 taking the lead many a times.

Here is the situation---it is just like a battle in the old days---the enemy in front of you in large numbers ready to decimate you---. You are hopelessly outnumbered---sure of your demise and that of your soldiers as well before the end of the day---and then the watcher points out to a dust cloud moving fast coming from one side onto your open flank---till the moment arrives and you realize that you have 3 Tumens of friendly fighting force arrive just in the nick of the time to save your neck.

That is how I would look at these 50, 2000-9's if we get them---perfect for our naval strike force---.

 

[Tiger Awan]

If the cost is right and we get access to French missiles and avionics (for our JF-17 too) in the deal then i can see the logic in going for Mirage-2k9

 

[war&peace]

The main advantage Mirage 2000 brings with it is fast integration of A/C in PAF system and war doctrine. It will replace its predecessor Mirage III of which PAF has a lot of experience and knowledge and it has a well defined role. JF17 not being able to carry Ra'ad ALCM due to its shorter legs will be happy to delegate this role to Mirage 2000-9.
Furthermore, PAF has a lot of infrastructure to support Mirage III and MRF. These facilities can be upgraded to be used for M2k-9s at a reasonable cost.

 

[khansaheeb]

Why are we even thinking about Mirage-2000??????????

Yeh, unless there is TOT we shouldn't even consider it. However the French are notorious for bribing for contracts and we should be wary.

 

[The SC]

Why Army involving in Air Force matter???

Because these aircrafts can also be used effectively for ground support..