UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[ACE OF THE AIR]

For me the matter of F-16 is wait and watch. The potential upcoming US defence secretary has given favorable hints but everything is up in air at the moment.

Yes it is wait and watch. Sill being optimistic PAF would get >60 F-16's. This would still leave PAF searching for 100-150 aircraft not adding the PN requirements.

This is a too optimistic Fleet by 2020
150 F-16
200 JF-17
150 M2K
Total 500 Aircraft

ACM in one of the interviews stated that PAF required 450 aircraft.

 

[MastanKhan]

But wasn't this cut mainly made to batmen and support staff? In that case, yes, the cut made sense as these people were not serving any operational purpose, it was a money pit.

It's not a direct response, but it's interesting to watch the Army evaluate the T-129 and Z-10.

On the surface, it would seem as though these choppers were competing against one another, but when we look at their respective capabilities, they're very different.

For example, the T-129 is a lightweight aircraft optimized for high-altitude operations, while the Z-10 is seeing a lot of use over the Army's desert exercises. The T-129 is also costly, while the Z-10 is (likely) much cheaper, yet their respective value is in different realms.

There is no air coverage for infantry in the Northern Areas, but few T-129s could provide some valuable force support. But the plains and deserts are vast, and in war, will be filled with armour from both sides - thus needing a low-cost but capable attack helicopter in the Z-10.

It'd be a dream to see both, but one kind of gets the sense that the Army was trying to see how each could support its needs in those key theatres.

Hi,

Most posters don't understand that the current 600---or 700 thousand is still a lean and mean army under the current conditions.

The lean and mean is a relative term---and the increment has to be proportionate to the development on the other side of the border as well.

It is just like at my car dealership---if I an selling a 100 cars a month---and I have 10 sales people---that is a lean sales force---but if I am selling 200 cars a month and I have increased the numbers to 22 sales personal---it is a still a lean force because of the adjusted increase in sales.

The Paf truly missed out on its opportunity in an extremely ungainful manner---.

The army will support to fund the air force as much as it can---as it has done in the past---but the army cannot sit back and play the waiting / evaluation game like the Paf did---.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think judging from the Last 5 years production I can say with confidence we will reach about 120 JF-17 Thunders, only. Unless we develop a new factory (another factory in other province etc) which would make sense

Which is still is a Proud achivement for Pakistan Airforce and the Engineers that have worked diligently on the project

Mirage 2000-9 Seems to be up for talks but even that is only about 40-50 jets at most

Back in 2009 I had hope that we would be able to make 25 Jets a year , which was some what reasonable (Expectation) however we have presently only reached about 16 or so crafts a year in best case scenario plus we also have some obligation to external customers

And the avenue for F-16 is pending interest from PAF.
The avenue for F16 might open but it remains to be seen how things develop upcoming weeks and months, in case FMS opens to Pakistan since our continued fight against elements like ISIS

Some members recently posted General Matis's statement about Pakistani Military's sacrifices in congessional hearing so that was a pleasant suprise that finaly our side of story was being told in some areas of political circle

 

[MastanKhan]

army still has batmans, a very bad practice, that should be cut, unfortunately it never happened, we should learn from Bangladesh regarding this

in my opinion fighting terrorism should devolve to frontier core and police once the army does the major role
fighting terrorism is not the role of army


if air force is defeated within a few hours than it will not matter whether we have the t-129 or z-10s
war will be fought on principal of cold start given extensive damage in case of prolonged war, hence air force will be the first force to engage each other and probably will be the deciding the factor, both numbers and quality will matter
when done a vis to vis comparison with india, our air force and navy(except in submarine depart) is far more obsolete as compared to army both in numbers and quality

Hi,

You know what---' cold start ' has not disappeared at all---. The longer it has taken the Paf to acquire the right aircraft---the cold start has gotten stronger---.

I think judging from the Last 5 years production I can say with confidence we will reach about 120 JF-17 Thunders, only

And the avenue for F-16 is pending interest from PAF.

Mirage 2000-9 Seems to be up for talks buy even that is only about 40-50 jets at most

Back in 2009 I had hope that we would be able to make 25 Jets a year , which was some what reasonable however we have presently only reached about 16 or so crafts a year in best case scenario plus we also have some obligation to external customers

The avenue for F16 might open but it remains to be seen how things develop upcoming weeks and months

Hi,

The problem we have now is that the Paf looked at the best possible scenario--and that is what it relayed to the public--- ( bad choice ).

The truth to the matter is that when you build a new weapon---there are a lots of growing pains ---and the pains are not predictable that when they are going to hit---.

Thus you have snags in development. Promise less deliver more---Paf never heard of that slogan---.

For that---there was no reason for the Paf not to lease at least 3 sqdrn's of J10B's for 10 years---just to cover the flanks.

 

[帅的一匹]

Yes it is wait and watch. Sill being optimistic PAF would get >60 F-16's. This would still leave PAF searching for 100-150 aircraft not adding the PN requirements.

This is a too optimistic Fleet by 2020
150 F-16
200 JF-17
150 M2K
Total 500 Aircraft

ACM in one of the interviews stated that PAF required 450 aircraft.

To be honest, this number is very decent for a country with Size of Pakistan. Pakistan can't go arm race with India bullet to bullet. Or it will tie down Pakistan economic development in the future. China is always with you, you are China's Israel.

Means China will not allow India attack Pakistan. Believe me , if a full scale war breaks out, tanks/ fighters/ missiles/ ships what ever you need to deal India. That's why I always said PAF pilots shall have regular training on Chinese platform.

 

[ziaulislam]

To be honest, this number is very decent for a country with Size of Pakistan. Pakistan can't go arm race with India bullet to bullet. Or it will tie down Pakistan economic development in the future. China is always with you, you are China's Israel.

Yes it is wait and watch. Sill being optimistic PAF would get >60 F-16's. This would still leave PAF searching for 100-150 aircraft not adding the PN requirements.

This is a too optimistic Fleet by 2020
150 F-16
200 JF-17
150 M2K
Total 500 Aircraft

ACM in one of the interviews stated that PAF required 450 aircraft.

what are you smoking....

this is not even must best case scenrio lol

by 2025 if we are extremely look we might get to 150(highly unlikely will require 2-3 billion dollars investment)
200 Jf-17 yes we would probably reach tehre
M2K not coming

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

You know what---' cold start ' has not disappeared at all---. The longer it has taken the Paf to acquire the right aircraft---the cold start has gotten stronger---.



Hi,

The problem we have now is that the Paf looked at the best possible scenario--and that is what it relayed to the public--- ( bad choice ).

The truth to the matter is that when you build a new weapon---there are a lots of growing pains ---and the pains are not predictable that when they are going to hit---.

Thus you have snags in development. Promise less deliver more---Paf never heard of that slogan---.

For that---there was no reason for the Paf not to lease at least 3 sqdrn's of J10B's for 10 years---just to cover the flanks.

Sir ji Pak not going to get these Mirage, seems this news is very old. Meanwhile, it has emerged that the UAE has deployed Mirage 2000-9 fighters to Eritrea in support of operations in Yemen @Khafee

 

[帅的一匹]

And also don't forget that China also has JF17 production line, means we can produce it as many as we can if PAF want it. Don't worry my friend, India is doomed.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I think judging from the Last 5 years production I can say with confidence we will reach about 120 JF-17 Thunders, only. Unless we develop a new factory (another factory in other province etc) which would make sense

Which is still is a Proud achivement for Pakistan Airforce and the Engineers that have worked diligently on the project

Mirage 2000-9 Seems to be up for talks buy even that is only about 40-50 jets at most

Back in 2009 I had hope that we would be able to make 25 Jets a year , which was some what reasonable (Expectation) however we have presently only reached about 16 or so crafts a year in best case scenario plus we also have some obligation to external customers

And the avenue for F-16 is pending interest from PAF.
The avenue for F16 might open but it remains to be seen how things develop upcoming weeks and months, in case FMS opens to Pakistan since our continued fight against elements like ISIS

Some members recently posted General Matis's statement about Pakistani Military's sacrifices in congessional hearing so that was a pleasant suprise that finaly our side of story was being told in some areas of political circle

The 16 aircraft per year is based on the international limitations. (atleast this is what I understood in JF-17 thread). Recently there was a thread regarding a new facility at PAC. There is however no conformation on what is this for.

Hi,

The problem we have now is that the Paf looked at the best possible scenario--and that is what it relayed to the public--- ( bad choice ).

The truth to the matter is that when you build a new weapon---there are a lots of growing pains ---and the pains are not predictable that when they are going to hit---.

Thus you have snags in development. Promise less deliver more---Paf never heard of that slogan---.

For that---there was no reason for the Paf not to lease at least 3 sqdrn's of J10B's for 10 years---just to cover the flanks.

Sir,
We have to realize that Pakistan is not USA that would build every thing at home. So having equipment from one source could be a negative thing even if it is not from your most trusted friend.

Pakistan faced such an issue in the 60's. Now they have to diversify.

 

[HRK]

I tend to disagree with this point. When the corps commanders proposed reductions of just 50k troops, cost was the culprit. Per their thinking, the reduction "will transform the army into a more potent institution, enhance its response capabilities and result in a fine balance between quality and quantity"

http://www.dawn.com/news/393707/pakistan-to-reduce-army-size-by-50000

those were non-combatant personals ...plz read excerpt from your posted link

This reduction in manpower will in no way affect the fighting potential of the army.

The president also approved the Pakistan Army's plan to replace use of combat soldiers as batmen of Officers and Junior Commissioned Officers with a new cadre called Non-Combatant Bearers employed on contract.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well since folks brought the case of Best case scenario well , if I had a choice here is what I would have preferred

• 150 JF-17 Thunder , Block 3 Joint Program with China, possible Block 4 Upgrade
  
• 100 F-16 Block C/D
  
• 40 J-31 (First Export Outside of China)
  
• 40 Typhoons or 40 Rafale or 40 J-11 or 50 Mirage 2000-9 or 40 Sukhoi-35
  
• 5th Generation Joint Program with Turkey (Might need some initiative from Government/Military to kick start things)

This would be sufficient till 2022 planning , with assumption that Mirage 3/5 retired and F-7PG retired.


*Retirement of 190 planes and Induction of about 165 planes

Going above the figure would be over kill

 

[帅的一匹]

Some on said FC31 will start LRIP at year 2019, and already has first user.

 

[Khafee]

I do know what I have read so far. And it does not provide ongoing maintenance costs. And no one is talking about ensuring we are on the top of the technology curve.

Pardon me, Sir, but as far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, the UAE airforce has 0 actual battle experience. They have never fired a shot in hostility, and certainly have 0 kills to their name. An aircraft built to their specs does not inspire trust in me. Whatever info you have provided tells me it has the same capability planned for JF-17 Block 3. And the only reason why I am 'banging my head against the wall' is the very real possibility that this becomes a white elephant which diverts our limited funds from other avenues. Or it becomes a cause for complacence and we stop looking for better aircraft.

To everyone else on the thread, do you feel confident about an aircraft which the army chief has to tout for the airforce chief? There is something fundamentally shady and broken here that makes me uncomfortable.

For the statement you have made you have my heartfelt sympathies. Just to update you, the M2k-9 stands for Mirage2000-9 built by Dassault of France, and NOT the UAE Air Force.

Btw, our first four Air Chiefs were Pakistani, we have always had trainers / instructors form PAF, either on deputation, or on contracts. So if they haven't imparted any knowledge, or refined our air war doctrines, then it is a sad day for PAF, and Pakistanis as a whole, as well. Please accept my heartfelt condolences.

Do not forget to let the PAF know, that since the M2k-9 "does not inspire trust in you," you would rather not see it in PAF colors, IF an opportunity arises.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Some on said FC31 will start LRIP at year 2019, and already has first user.

Well the plane is successfully flying I would imagine it is ready for real life implementation

Would really not mind if PAF flys 40 Units , around 2+ squadrons, as Trial basis to iron out some of the kinks in the first generation , and provide some feedback

It would be nice to review its performance first hand compare it to existing friendly units in few air drills etc

1-2 Years of in field Testing with PAF will ensure we test it against some of the best platforms available and few live missions to test the machines in real environment

Plus we might put it on active missions get some stars under the plane

PS: Listen to al the camera snaps in the video the plane is a Rock STAR

 

[帅的一匹]

Well the plane is successfully flying I would imagine it is ready for real life implementation

Would really not mind if PAF flys 40 Units , around 2+ squadrons, as Trial basis to iron out some of the kinks in the first generation , and provide some feedback

It would be nice to review its performance first hand compare it to existing friendly units in few air drills etc

1-2 Years of in field Testing with PAF will ensure we test it against some of the best platforms available and few live missions to test the machines in real environment

I just guess, if , I say if, PAF is the first user. Maybe PAF pilots had joined the fly test. Who knows? Everything is possible.

For the statement you have made you have my heartfelt sympathies. Just to update you, the M2k-9 stands for Mirage2000-9 built by Dassault of France, and NOT the UAE Air Force.

Btw, our first four Air Chiefs were Pakistani, we have always had trainers / instructors form PAF, either on deputation, or on contracts. So if they haven't imparted any knowledge, or refined our air war doctrines, then it is a sad day for PAF, and Pakistanis as a whole, as well. Please accept my heartfelt condolences.

Do not forget to let the PAF know, that since the M2k-9 "does not inspire trust in you," you would rather not see it in PAF colors, IF an opportunity arises.

How much it gonna charge PAF for these M2K9? What is the price you bought it from France?