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U.S F35 beaten by F16 in dogfight

Even in that case was the media source from a third world country? please check that, before BLAMING anyone one must at least check out if there is anything to blame for. You cannot say that his response was because some PREVIOUS trend, we are here on this thread and the words used were uncalled for.

I did not ssay nor hint the source is from a third world country, nor did I actually use such word. I simply ask a question. How.Do.You.Know?

Whatever the source was, it is better to think of the creditability of the source before considering the context of what they said. I am not saying it must be an "Official" source, but most reliable source would have to be verifiable, when you simply quote "An US Test Pilot" said, you cannot verify what it say.

That's called deniability, mostly used in disinformation, in this case, the authority will either let the rumor wither and dies or force to clarified. In this case, the US Government did the latter

Joint Program Office Response to "War is Boring" Blog | F-35 Lightning II

We can keep on arguing for as long as we want, discussing this and that!! the point remains the same that the statement was uncalled for, was made with out any bit of research and the poster was not sure what he is talking about, to who and about what!! It was a UK paper, quoting a US pilot, comparing two US planes :lol: now i dont find and of your supposed THIRD RATE countries here, as for Chinese influence, you need to look at the pace of progress and all that. AGAIN, I AM NOT COMPARING OR STATING THAT CHINA OR US CAN WIN THE WAR. BOTH WILL HAVE A LOT TO LOSE. Look at US largest trade partners list. AGAIN, NOT DECLARING A WINNER just saying that no one will be able to win now, and that is an achievement for any country against US.


First of all, it is Daily Mail online Australia not an UK source, and second of all, if I remember correctly, Daily Mail Online quote Aviation weekly which feature this personality - Dr Carlos Kopp, which is supposed to be some kind of authority in Aviation, but his qualification is in Computer Science and his "Aviation Experience" is flying the F-15 and F-18 simulator and having a PPL.

I have already made the comment on Chinese Challenge, I myself am Chinese, I know what China is capable of, and the fact is that most Chinese (not the Chinese Here) would agree if China go against the US now or in near future, it will be suicidal for China as US can hit China within their soil, but there are no other mean beside Ballistic Missile for the Chinese to fight back.

It would be quite stupid for China to challenge the US now, before themselves turning into developed world.

Again, i guess i am getting off topic. The Simple point is that i fail to realize that why any other country was brought into this in the first place when the TOPIC was F-35 vs F-16, so yes, all this we are watching is a bit of crying trying to take attention from what was originally being discussed. :disagree:

Problem is, it's wrong in the beginning to believe these kind of article without considering the source.

I can see al lyour point are related to the supposed "US Test Pilot" but you don't actually know, nor can you verify such person did exist, or if he indeed exist, did say such thing.


Don't take it personally but then if you even do what i say about it? i need to say it again, the OP was about a UK source quoting a US pilot comparing two US plains, it was that post by that "us" that started all this and made no sense. The main issue was it came from such a senior member, one i have followed on numerous threads and respect a lot and am sure is better than these cheap shots.

Umm, he is being ironic and sarcastic......we all did that at one point or the other..
 
Not surprsing.

There are few fighters which can beat F 16 in Dogfight and looking at F 35s Aerodynamic Performnce, the OP is not surprising.

F 35 has Aerodynamic Performance of a brick.

One has to look at the priorities, F-35 replaces a large number of specialized platform, with better than average performance in all these specifications.
 
I did not ssay nor hint the source is from a third world country, nor did I actually use such word. I simply ask a question. How.Do.You.Know?
Actually,, i quoted the guy WHO DID :)
may be you need to check the last few pages and will get to know what it was all about.

Whatever the source was, it is better to think of the creditability of the source before considering the context of what they said. I am not saying it must be an "Official" source, but most reliable source would have to be verifiable, when you simply quote "An US Test Pilot" said, you cannot verify what it say.

That's called deniability, mostly used in disinformation, in this case, the authority will either let the rumor wither and dies or force to clarified. In this case, the US Government did the latter

Joint Program Office Response to "War is Boring" Blog | F-35 Lightning II
Again, i guess you have missed the starting issue and that is causing the confusion, otherwise i am begning to think we are on the same page. You need to check out first 7 10 posts to know what i am saying,,


First of all, it is Daily Mail online Australia not an UK source, and second of all, if I remember correctly, Daily Mail Online quote Aviation weekly which feature this personality - Dr Carlos Kopp, which is supposed to be some kind of authority in Aviation, but his qualification is in Computer Science and his "Aviation Experience" is flying the F-15 and F-18 simulator and having a PPL.
PLEASE!!! Australia,, UK Mr Carlos,,, STILL, the point is i DO NOT SEE ANY THIRD RATE COUNTRY BASHING F-35, the original post that i objected to and still DO !!

I have already made the comment on Chinese Challenge, I myself am Chinese, I know what China is capable of, and the fact is that most Chinese (not the Chinese Here) would agree if China go against the US now or in near future, it will be suicidal for China as US can hit China within their soil, but there are no other mean beside Ballistic Missile for the Chinese to fight back.

It would be quite stupid for China to challenge the US now, before themselves turning into developed world.
I am not getting into that China US debate, i have clearly stated that i am not saying CHina can beat US just stating that they wont lose either, or you can say, no one will win!!

Problem is, it's wrong in the beginning to believe these kind of article without considering the source.
SIR, check the starting posts, NO ONE was believing it, not by the time the post was made by gambit that i objected to, do check that and you will see it for yourself.

I can see all your point are related to the supposed "US Test Pilot" but you don't actually know, nor can you verify such person did exist, or if he indeed exist, did say such thing.
my comments? where did i said F-35 is inferior to F-16 or anything but F-22??? find me one single such STUPID post by myself, not only on this thread but on the whole forum and i will be happy to apologize for that, remember, it was not MY claim or my point of view, my post was only quoting the post that i felt was insulting and BELOW the level of usual posts by gambit.

Umm, he is being ironic and sarcastic......we all did that at one point or the other..
:lol:
After all the debates, if this is some kind of justification, i rest my case...
 
Read for Yourself — The F-35's Damning Dogfighting Report

Test pilot reveals stealth fighter’s vulnerability
by DAVID AXE

The pricey new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter — the main new warplane for the U.S. military and many of America’s closest allies — can’t turn fast enough to defeat other jet fighters in close aerial combat.

In other words, the F-35 is dead meat in a real war against a determined foe.

But don’t take it from us. Below, we’re posting an F-35 test pilot’s own account from mock air battles in January.​

Read for Yourself — The F-35's Damning Dogfighting Report — War Is Boring — Medium
 
Actually,, i quoted the guy WHO DID :)
may be you need to check the last few pages and will get to know what it was all about.


Again, i guess you have missed the starting issue and that is causing the confusion, otherwise i am begning to think we are on the same page. You need to check out first 7 10 posts to know what i am saying,,



PLEASE!!! Australia,, UK Mr Carlos,,, STILL, the point is i DO NOT SEE ANY THIRD RATE COUNTRY BASHING F-35, the original post that i objected to and still DO !!


I am not getting into that China US debate, i have clearly stated that i am not saying CHina can beat US just stating that they wont lose either, or you can say, no one will win!!


SIR, check the starting posts, NO ONE was believing it, not by the time the post was made by gambit that i objected to, do check that and you will see it for yourself.


my comments? where did i said F-35 is inferior to F-16 or anything but F-22??? find me one single such STUPID post by myself, not only on this thread but on the whole forum and i will be happy to apologize for that, remember, it was not MY claim or my point of view, my post was only quoting the post that i felt was insulting and BELOW the level of usual posts by gambit.


:lol:
After all the debates, if this is some kind of justification, i rest my case...

lol I did say he is being Ironic and mockery a few post back, in fact, IIRC, it is the very post I post in this thread.
 
The most pointed criticism against the F-35 is the idea of 'concurrency engineering' or 'concurrent engineering', as if it was a harebrained scheme from the Pentagon and Lockheed, and the source of all the F-35's development problems.

Boeing Frontiers Online
SPRING Technologies | Success stories : AIRBUS

Would someone, preferably a citizen of a 3rd rate country whose indigenous aviation program that can barely hack up a prop jobber, tell Boeing and Airbus they are going about it the wrong way with their own programs of concurrency engineering.

But regarding the F-36 vs F-16 comparison...

F-16 Fleet Reports - F-16 aircraft version production

If our friends over at f-16.net did their research correctly, the F-16 is an even larger concurrent engineering project than the F-35.

An F-16 'large mouth' came from an F-16 'small mouth', but how is that possible unless from the start of the F-16's design phase, the F-16's creators, which included the oft cited F-35 critic Pierre Sprey, intended the F-16 to be a modular aircraft, capable of its airframe and components being upgraded as technology and mission requirements dictate throughout its life ? Often, a newer block of the F-16 required a new airframe based upon the older version. This is concurrent engineering spreaded over a longer period of time. Then there are 'one-off' projects like the F-16XL and the AFTI F-16. Those two are exploratory projects that was based upon the original F-16 design being a concurrent engineering project. In other words, the success of the F-16 as a concurrency engineering design set the foundation for the F-35 being the same with the F-35 benefitting more sophisticated manufacturing technology.

The F-16 was intended to replace the F-4 and yet its designers, which included the F-35 critic Pierre Sprey, did not formalized the F-16' performance specs, not even with controlled testing. The first few F-16s were built and delivered to the USAF and as the USAF conducted flight testings, feedbacks to General Dynamics were constant as to aircraft performance, who then modified the next batch in the manufacturing line as needed. The USAF had high confidence that the F-16's basic airframe was flexible enough to support a continuous upgrade program so the generals agreed with the absence of a final configuration. The USAF also agreed that older F-16s would not -- or should not -- be upgraded as newer technology inevitably add newer capabilities, hence the concept of a 'block' to designate newer airframes with those newer capabilities. Parallelism was a wonder for the F-16 but forbidden for the F-35 ?

Who said the F-15 can out turn the F-16 ? It is wrong to give the F-35 superior 'look first, shoot first' capability via superior sensor systems. But the F-15's large radar gave the F-15 exactly that needed 'look first, shoot first' capability that everyone, including the F-35's critics, praised the F-15 for, despite the fact that the F-15 cannot out maneuver the smaller F-16.

As for the article itself...

Any pilot worth the metal that make up his wings would immediately be suspicious at the selectivity of quotes from this alleged 'test pilot' who flew a test F-35 against a line F-16. The test pilot's brief is unclassified, so then release the whole thing. There are plenty of pilots who have experience in both the F-15 and F-16 and who know what situations can cause a jet to be 'sluggish' or have 'distinct energy disadvantage' so they can make up their own minds.
 
lol I did say he is being Ironic and mockery a few post back, in fact, IIRC, it is the very post I post in this thread.
to that i replied already that if this is the justification for that, i rest my case. :)

The most pointed criticism against the F-35 is the idea of 'concurrency engineering' or 'concurrent engineering', as if it was a harebrained scheme from the Pentagon and Lockheed, and the source of all the F-35's development problems.

Boeing Frontiers Online
SPRING Technologies | Success stories : AIRBUS

Would someone, preferably a citizen of a 3rd rate country whose indigenous aviation program that can barely hack up a prop jobber, tell Boeing and Airbus they are going about it the wrong way with their own programs of concurrency engineering.

But regarding the F-36 vs F-16 comparison...

F-16 Fleet Reports - F-16 aircraft version production

If our friends over at f-16.net did their research correctly, the F-16 is an even larger concurrent engineering project than the F-35.

An F-16 'large mouth' came from an F-16 'small mouth', but how is that possible unless from the start of the F-16's design phase, the F-16's creators, which included the oft cited F-35 critic Pierre Sprey, intended the F-16 to be a modular aircraft, capable of its airframe and components being upgraded as technology and mission requirements dictate throughout its life ? Often, a newer block of the F-16 required a new airframe based upon the older version. This is concurrent engineering spreaded over a longer period of time. Then there are 'one-off' projects like the F-16XL and the AFTI F-16. Those two are exploratory projects that was based upon the original F-16 design being a concurrent engineering project. In other words, the success of the F-16 as a concurrency engineering design set the foundation for the F-35 being the same with the F-35 benefitting more sophisticated manufacturing technology.

The F-16 was intended to replace the F-4 and yet its designers, which included the F-35 critic Pierre Sprey, did not formalized the F-16' performance specs, not even with controlled testing. The first few F-16s were built and delivered to the USAF and as the USAF conducted flight testings, feedbacks to General Dynamics were constant as to aircraft performance, who then modified the next batch in the manufacturing line as needed. The USAF had high confidence that the F-16's basic airframe was flexible enough to support a continuous upgrade program so the generals agreed with the absence of a final configuration. The USAF also agreed that older F-16s would not -- or should not -- be upgraded as newer technology inevitably add newer capabilities, hence the concept of a 'block' to designate newer airframes with those newer capabilities. Parallelism was a wonder for the F-16 but forbidden for the F-35 ?

Who said the F-15 can out turn the F-16 ? It is wrong to give the F-35 superior 'look first, shoot first' capability via superior sensor systems. But the F-15's large radar gave the F-15 exactly that needed 'look first, shoot first' capability that everyone, including the F-35's critics, praised the F-15 for, despite the fact that the F-15 cannot out maneuver the smaller F-16.

As for the article itself...

Any pilot worth the metal that make up his wings would immediately be suspicious at the selectivity of quotes from this alleged 'test pilot' who flew a test F-35 against a line F-16. The test pilot's brief is unclassified, so then release the whole thing. There are plenty of pilots who have experience in both the F-15 and F-16 and who know what situations can cause a jet to be 'sluggish' or have 'distinct energy disadvantage' so they can make up their own minds.

that's more like it sir.
 
Controversy Flares over F-35 Air Combat Report

July 2, 2015

Bill Sweetman
Aviation Week & Space Technology

A Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter was outperformed in the type’s first basic fighter maneuvering exercise by a 20-plus-year-old F-16 fighter, according to a leaked Lockheed Martin report prepared by the pilot who flew the mission.

Inferior energy maneuverability (EM), a limited pitch rate, and flying qualities that were “not intuitive or favorable” in a major part of the air-combat regime gave the F-16 the tactical advantage and allowed its pilot to get into both missile-launch and gun parameters over the F-35. Another drawback was that the large helmet and F-35 canopy design restricted the pilot’s rearward view.

Lockheed Martin and the JSF Program Office confirm that the document, originally leaked by the War is Boring website, is genuine but says “the interpretation of the scenario results could be misleading.” Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Harrigian, director of the U.S. Air Force F-35 integration office, says that it is “too soon” to judge the F-35’s maneuverability.

JSF risk reduction and development have been under way since late 1996 and more than $80 billion has been spent.

The test mission in the report was carried out on January 14. It could have been one of those flown from Edwards AFB in California by Lockheed Martin site lead test pilot David “Doc” Nelson and reported by AW&ST in April. At that time, however, the question of which aircraft had the advantage in the engagement was not discussed. The author’s name has been removed from the copy of the report obtained by Aviation Week.

The key performance parameters set for the JSF do not call for the aircraft to be superior to the F-16 and F/A-18C/D in air-to-air combat, but they demand comparable performance in terms of sustained and instantaneous g and acceleration. However, Lockheed Martin executives and pilots have stated that when including sensor fusion, stealth, and other attributes, the F-35 will be superior in air combat, by margins of 400 to 600%, to so-called “fourth-generation” fighters (a term coined by Lockheed Martin to denote both older U.S. fighters and current non-U.S designs).

The F-16 that outmaneuvered the F-35 in the January test was an F-16D Block 40, one of the lower-performing versions of the family, delivered between 1987 and 1994. The Block 40 was beefed up to carry more weapons than the preceding Block 30 and incorporated Have Glass radar cross-section reduction measures, boosting its empty weight, but lacked the higher-performance engines introduced on the Block 50. The F-16 retained its two 370-gallon external fuel tanks during the engagement and was limited to 7g until they were empty.

Lockheed Martin notes that AF-2 is an early development aircraft without stealth coatings, although those are not relevant in within-visual-range (WVR) combat and their absence would make the airplane lighter. It was also not equipped with simulated air training missiles, but neither was the F-16. Lockheed Martin says AF-2 lacked “software that allows the F-35 pilot to turn, aim a weapon with the helmet, and fire at an enemy without having to point the airplane at its target,” but this capability is available in clear daylight on any modern fighter and was not used by the F-16 in the test. Also, the F-35 cannot exploit this capability in stealth configuration because there is no suitable high-off-boresight air-to-air missile planned for internal carriage on the aircraft.

The report identifies changes to F-35 flight control software that could mitigate some of the problems found in the test. However, none of them can correct the deficit in energy maneuverability, which is defined at any given airspeed by the aircraft’s available thrust, drag, and weight and indicates its ability to accelerate, climb, or change maneuver state.

The F-35 has higher angle-of-attack limits than the F-16, which should normally be an advantage, but a combination of factors, including a limited pitch rate and the inferior EM, made it less useful. It took too long to reach high AoA and the lack of energy maneuverability meant the F-35 could not quickly re-accelerate into high-speed maneuver states.

The sortie included 17 engagements starting between 18,000 and 22,000 feet with a 10,000-foot floor, with starting speeds between 380 and 440 knots indicated airspeed, the report says. The test was primarily designed to “stress the high AoA control laws during operationally responsive maneuvers utilizing elevated AoAs and aggressive stick/pedal inputs,” the report says. The pilot judged the test as being “extremely effective at providing data that are not achievable with scripted test cards,” it adds.

The first observation in the report is that “the most noticeable characteristic of the F-35A in a visual engagement was its lack of energy maneuverability” and the pilot notes that the F-35A has a smaller wing than the F-15E, similar weight, and 15,000 lbs. less thrust.

The “insufficient pitch rate exacerbated the lack of EM” the pilot reported, because energy would bleed off continuously as the pilot tried to get the nose up. The F-35 would have had more shot opportunities in some cases if the pitch rate limit (imposed by control laws rather than aerodynamics) had been more relaxed, the report says. Offensive and defensive gun moves were slow and easily detected and countered, the report says, and the highest g loading was around 6.5g in breaks or on entering a turn, decreasing as the aircraft slowed down. The F-35 airframe is designed for 9g.

High-AoA flight allowed “a few offensive opportunities” against the F-16 (which is AoA-limited and roll- and yaw-limited towards its maximum angle of attack). For instance, a long full-rudder input could yaw the F-35 sharply enough to cause the F-16 to cross its nose and get a missile shot, the report says, but this maneuver “required a commitment to lose energy” with the F-35 headed for the floor and “meant losing the fight unless the bandit made an error”.

The F-35 has a sophisticated flight control system that changes the response of the control surfaces to stick and rudder commands as the airplane moves through its flight envelope, with low- and high-AoA regions and a “blended” region between them, at 20 to 26 degrees. This was the area where the aircraft “fought best,” the pilot reported, but it was not easy, because flying qualities “were neither intuitive nor favorable” and “the lateral/directional response was often unpredictable”.

The problem, in the pilot’s view, is the way that the FCS adjusts response according to AoA. In flight test, the pilot aims at a specific AoA and expects a certain response, but in a dynamic flight “attention is focused on the bandit rather than the specific AoA [and] the response was often confusing,” the report says. The pilot was left waiting for a roll rate that did not happen, or expected yaw and got sideslip.

In one case the pilot applied full rudder to no immediate effect, then tried a stick input – just as the rudder kicked in. The pilot added more rudder and got a “fantastic yaw rate” that was promptly quashed (“immediate, abrupt, and forceful”) by the anti-spin logic in the FCS.

Both the anti-spin logic and the slow pitch rate meant that the F-35 could not escape a gun attack by the F-16. “No successful guns defense was found,” the report says. For instance, a standard escape maneuver – unload, roll, and pull to change the plane of the aircraft’s movement – was bogged down by pitch rate, so “the result was an out-of-plane maneuver that was easy to track.”

The size of the helmet-mounted display system presented a problem. “There were several occasions where the bandit would have been visible, but the helmet prevented getting in a position to see him,” the report says. The “eyebrow” formed by the visor assembly also blocked the tally at times.

Some mitigating measures are advocated in the report, such as relaxing restrictions on AoA onset and pitch rate. Both would let the pilot move more quickly into and out of the higher-AoA regime, where the F-35 has a controllability advantage over the F-16. The pilot also advises expanding the “blended” control regime, avoiding shifts in control laws in a key part of the combat envelope, and giving the pilot more yaw authority versus the anti-spin logic.

In the pilot’s view, the F-35’s departure resistance is good enough to allow more latitude. Other aircraft, including the F/A-18 Super Hornet, have benefited from flight control software changes over time, which have allowed pilots to better exploit the aircraft’s strong points and mitigated early problems.

However, the basic energy maneuverability deficiency is more difficult to address and most contemporary fighters are much less restricted at high AoA than the F-16. (“Drag him into the phone booth” has long been the adversary’s best way to fight the F-16.) “The F-35 goes out against something like a Sukhoi or a Typhoon and they’re going to eat his lunch,” remarks an experienced military pilot. “They have the advantage in turn rate, [specific excess power], and energy bleed rate.”

Pilots who talked to Aviation Week about the leaked report – some but not all of whom work or have worked for other fighter manufacturers – were surprised by the magnitude of the shortfall in energy maneuverability, but not by its existence. The limitations of the Block 40 F-16 and the fact that it retained its tanks “should have been a plus for the F-35,” says one, and the engagement altitude – “above mid-range” in terms of within visual range combat – should have favored the F-35 because of its modern, powerful engine.

“People all need to look at what F-35 really is,” another aviator comments. “A stealth A-7 bomb truck, capable of first-night suppression of enemy air defenses, with limited self-escort. It is, as software-configured right now, not a light air-combat-maneuvering-capable platform. This is what we saw with the early F/A-18E/F blocks: millions of lines of code and in need of constant update. But, in this case, it’s becoming increasingly easier to rewrite the code laws to allow for those changes.”

“Anyone can see that it is not a very agile aircraft,” a third pilot comments, pointing out that changing flight test laws may be more of a problem if – as some operators expect – pilot flying hours are reduced and training is transferred to lower-cost aircraft and simulators.

Part of Lockheed Martin’s response to the release of the report is to downplay the importance of maneuvering combat. “The F-35’s technology is designed to engage, shoot, and kill its enemy from long distances, not necessarily in visual ‘dogfighting’ situations,” the company says. But as one of Aviation Week’s sources says, reliance on deciding the fight beyond visual range may not always be possible in the early stages of a conflict (power projection, show-of-force) or where rules of engagement limit BVR shots. “My belief is that the tactics against the F-35 will be something which we are not used to saying: If you see one — get close.
 
Controversy Flares over F-35 Air Combat Report

July 2, 2015

Bill Sweetman
Aviation Week & Space Technology

A Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter was outperformed in the type’s first basic fighter maneuvering exercise by a 20-plus-year-old F-16 fighter, according to a leaked Lockheed Martin report prepared by the pilot who flew the mission.

Inferior energy maneuverability (EM), a limited pitch rate, and flying qualities that were “not intuitive or favorable” in a major part of the air-combat regime gave the F-16 the tactical advantage and allowed its pilot to get into both missile-launch and gun parameters over the F-35. Another drawback was that the large helmet and F-35 canopy design restricted the pilot’s rearward view.

Lockheed Martin and the JSF Program Office confirm that the document, originally leaked by the War is Boring website, is genuine but says “the interpretation of the scenario results could be misleading.” Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Harrigian, director of the U.S. Air Force F-35 integration office, says that it is “too soon” to judge the F-35’s maneuverability.

JSF risk reduction and development have been under way since late 1996 and more than $80 billion has been spent.

The test mission in the report was carried out on January 14. It could have been one of those flown from Edwards AFB in California by Lockheed Martin site lead test pilot David “Doc” Nelson and reported by AW&ST in April. At that time, however, the question of which aircraft had the advantage in the engagement was not discussed. The author’s name has been removed from the copy of the report obtained by Aviation Week.

The key performance parameters set for the JSF do not call for the aircraft to be superior to the F-16 and F/A-18C/D in air-to-air combat, but they demand comparable performance in terms of sustained and instantaneous g and acceleration. However, Lockheed Martin executives and pilots have stated that when including sensor fusion, stealth, and other attributes, the F-35 will be superior in air combat, by margins of 400 to 600%, to so-called “fourth-generation” fighters (a term coined by Lockheed Martin to denote both older U.S. fighters and current non-U.S designs).

The F-16 that outmaneuvered the F-35 in the January test was an F-16D Block 40, one of the lower-performing versions of the family, delivered between 1987 and 1994. The Block 40 was beefed up to carry more weapons than the preceding Block 30 and incorporated Have Glass radar cross-section reduction measures, boosting its empty weight, but lacked the higher-performance engines introduced on the Block 50. The F-16 retained its two 370-gallon external fuel tanks during the engagement and was limited to 7g until they were empty.

Lockheed Martin notes that AF-2 is an early development aircraft without stealth coatings, although those are not relevant in within-visual-range (WVR) combat and their absence would make the airplane lighter. It was also not equipped with simulated air training missiles, but neither was the F-16. Lockheed Martin says AF-2 lacked “software that allows the F-35 pilot to turn, aim a weapon with the helmet, and fire at an enemy without having to point the airplane at its target,” but this capability is available in clear daylight on any modern fighter and was not used by the F-16 in the test. Also, the F-35 cannot exploit this capability in stealth configuration because there is no suitable high-off-boresight air-to-air missile planned for internal carriage on the aircraft.

The report identifies changes to F-35 flight control software that could mitigate some of the problems found in the test. However, none of them can correct the deficit in energy maneuverability, which is defined at any given airspeed by the aircraft’s available thrust, drag, and weight and indicates its ability to accelerate, climb, or change maneuver state.

The F-35 has higher angle-of-attack limits than the F-16, which should normally be an advantage, but a combination of factors, including a limited pitch rate and the inferior EM, made it less useful. It took too long to reach high AoA and the lack of energy maneuverability meant the F-35 could not quickly re-accelerate into high-speed maneuver states.

The sortie included 17 engagements starting between 18,000 and 22,000 feet with a 10,000-foot floor, with starting speeds between 380 and 440 knots indicated airspeed, the report says. The test was primarily designed to “stress the high AoA control laws during operationally responsive maneuvers utilizing elevated AoAs and aggressive stick/pedal inputs,” the report says. The pilot judged the test as being “extremely effective at providing data that are not achievable with scripted test cards,” it adds.

The first observation in the report is that “the most noticeable characteristic of the F-35A in a visual engagement was its lack of energy maneuverability” and the pilot notes that the F-35A has a smaller wing than the F-15E, similar weight, and 15,000 lbs. less thrust.

The “insufficient pitch rate exacerbated the lack of EM” the pilot reported, because energy would bleed off continuously as the pilot tried to get the nose up. The F-35 would have had more shot opportunities in some cases if the pitch rate limit (imposed by control laws rather than aerodynamics) had been more relaxed, the report says. Offensive and defensive gun moves were slow and easily detected and countered, the report says, and the highest g loading was around 6.5g in breaks or on entering a turn, decreasing as the aircraft slowed down. The F-35 airframe is designed for 9g.

High-AoA flight allowed “a few offensive opportunities” against the F-16 (which is AoA-limited and roll- and yaw-limited towards its maximum angle of attack). For instance, a long full-rudder input could yaw the F-35 sharply enough to cause the F-16 to cross its nose and get a missile shot, the report says, but this maneuver “required a commitment to lose energy” with the F-35 headed for the floor and “meant losing the fight unless the bandit made an error”.

The F-35 has a sophisticated flight control system that changes the response of the control surfaces to stick and rudder commands as the airplane moves through its flight envelope, with low- and high-AoA regions and a “blended” region between them, at 20 to 26 degrees. This was the area where the aircraft “fought best,” the pilot reported, but it was not easy, because flying qualities “were neither intuitive nor favorable” and “the lateral/directional response was often unpredictable”.

The problem, in the pilot’s view, is the way that the FCS adjusts response according to AoA. In flight test, the pilot aims at a specific AoA and expects a certain response, but in a dynamic flight “attention is focused on the bandit rather than the specific AoA [and] the response was often confusing,” the report says. The pilot was left waiting for a roll rate that did not happen, or expected yaw and got sideslip.

In one case the pilot applied full rudder to no immediate effect, then tried a stick input – just as the rudder kicked in. The pilot added more rudder and got a “fantastic yaw rate” that was promptly quashed (“immediate, abrupt, and forceful”) by the anti-spin logic in the FCS.

Both the anti-spin logic and the slow pitch rate meant that the F-35 could not escape a gun attack by the F-16. “No successful guns defense was found,” the report says. For instance, a standard escape maneuver – unload, roll, and pull to change the plane of the aircraft’s movement – was bogged down by pitch rate, so “the result was an out-of-plane maneuver that was easy to track.”

The size of the helmet-mounted display system presented a problem. “There were several occasions where the bandit would have been visible, but the helmet prevented getting in a position to see him,” the report says. The “eyebrow” formed by the visor assembly also blocked the tally at times.

Some mitigating measures are advocated in the report, such as relaxing restrictions on AoA onset and pitch rate. Both would let the pilot move more quickly into and out of the higher-AoA regime, where the F-35 has a controllability advantage over the F-16. The pilot also advises expanding the “blended” control regime, avoiding shifts in control laws in a key part of the combat envelope, and giving the pilot more yaw authority versus the anti-spin logic.

In the pilot’s view, the F-35’s departure resistance is good enough to allow more latitude. Other aircraft, including the F/A-18 Super Hornet, have benefited from flight control software changes over time, which have allowed pilots to better exploit the aircraft’s strong points and mitigated early problems.

However, the basic energy maneuverability deficiency is more difficult to address and most contemporary fighters are much less restricted at high AoA than the F-16. (“Drag him into the phone booth” has long been the adversary’s best way to fight the F-16.) “The F-35 goes out against something like a Sukhoi or a Typhoon and they’re going to eat his lunch,” remarks an experienced military pilot. “They have the advantage in turn rate, [specific excess power], and energy bleed rate.”

Pilots who talked to Aviation Week about the leaked report – some but not all of whom work or have worked for other fighter manufacturers – were surprised by the magnitude of the shortfall in energy maneuverability, but not by its existence. The limitations of the Block 40 F-16 and the fact that it retained its tanks “should have been a plus for the F-35,” says one, and the engagement altitude – “above mid-range” in terms of within visual range combat – should have favored the F-35 because of its modern, powerful engine.

“People all need to look at what F-35 really is,” another aviator comments. “A stealth A-7 bomb truck, capable of first-night suppression of enemy air defenses, with limited self-escort. It is, as software-configured right now, not a light air-combat-maneuvering-capable platform. This is what we saw with the early F/A-18E/F blocks: millions of lines of code and in need of constant update. But, in this case, it’s becoming increasingly easier to rewrite the code laws to allow for those changes.”

“Anyone can see that it is not a very agile aircraft,” a third pilot comments, pointing out that changing flight test laws may be more of a problem if – as some operators expect – pilot flying hours are reduced and training is transferred to lower-cost aircraft and simulators.

Part of Lockheed Martin’s response to the release of the report is to downplay the importance of maneuvering combat. “The F-35’s technology is designed to engage, shoot, and kill its enemy from long distances, not necessarily in visual ‘dogfighting’ situations,” the company says. But as one of Aviation Week’s sources says, reliance on deciding the fight beyond visual range may not always be possible in the early stages of a conflict (power projection, show-of-force) or where rules of engagement limit BVR shots. “My belief is that the tactics against the F-35 will be something which we are not used to saying: If you see one — get close.

The worst thing about this is that it was beaten by a block 40 F16
 
F35 is too fat to be stealthy or agile, of course an f16 can beat it, heck even a made in india mig can shoot it down
 
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