Two vehicle system for Pakistani Missiles?

[thesameguy]

This is an old Video from Musharraf era and commentator says that one vehicle is launcher and the other is transporter. The transporter vehicle seems to be an enclosed vehicle unlike the rather open Launcher.
Is it that instead of encapsulating the missiles and making the system more expensive and complicated,Pakistan has opted to have one dedicated storage vehicle and another dedicated launcher.
If so then wont it increase launch time and how they load the missile from transporter to the launcher, specially in shaheen 2 case where the missile is rather heavy.
@The Deterrent @HRK @Arsalan @Horus @Side-Winder @Bratva

 

[thesameguy]

As you no this video from mush era and also the 2015 Pakistan day parade video, each launcher carrying missile Is followed by a flat enclosed vehicle which the commentator calls missile transportation vehicle.
How doed this system work. Any better than encapsulated Agni system?

 

[The Deterrent]

Strategic Missile Groups don't operate singular TELs. Just like in case of SAMs, there are batteries. Similarly a typical ballistic missile battery would consist of 2 TELs, 2 transporters (4 missiles in total), reloading crane, 1-2 command/control/communications vehicles and 1-2 support vehicles. So there could be 6-8 vehicles in a battery. This estimate is based on PLA's Second Artillery Corps' exercise videos, as Pakistani SFC follows similar protocols/procedures.

The system would theoretically work like everything (core, warhead package, RV, missile motor bodies, launcher) will be integrated at a remote location, and the battery will be sent off to designated launch sites. There could be further dissipation of assets to ensure survivability, and after initial launches, TELs would be reloaded and relocated for a possible second strike.

A canisterized weapon is better in every way except that it increases risks of accidental/rogue launches by cutting down assembly time and a decreased amount of disintegration of assets.

 

[amardeep mishra]

A canisterized weapon is better in every way except that it increases risks of accidental/rogue launches by cutting down assembly time and a decreased amount of disintegration of assets.

hi @The Deterrent Deterrent
You are correct ,in fact according to ex-DG DRDO the launch time of A5 with TCT-5 is as low as just 10 mins(compare that with other non canisterized agnis that take as much as 30 mins for preps)! With the advent of canisterized systems,the mating of warheads is done electronically and takes 10s of seconds as explained by ex-chairman of SFC india
and they are working on further reducing this time. In canisterized systems,the RCS(reaction control system) tanks are either empty or filled depending on the metallurgical prowess of the country. If you can develop metallurgy sufficiently advanced enough then you can keep the RCS tanks filled all the time and that would further reduce the launching time to hardly a couple of mins. The choice of materials for RCS is a very tricky subject especially for canisteried missiles that are sealed in SSBN silos or land based canisters(a problem that india faced in late 2000s).In fact to your surprise the most likely contender wont work in real life situations

 

[desimorty]

A canisterized weapon is better in every way except that it increases risks of accidental/rogue launches by cutting down assembly time and a decreased amount of disintegration of assets.

Source: Two vehicle system for Pakistani Missiles?

Wouldn't a canister version have difficulty re-equipping warhead? Same rule applies. Keep the warheads away from launch platform to reduce risk of "accidental" launch. I think the "TNW" think going on is complete bull sh!te in that regard. The number of warheads needing security would increase exponentially. The PLA for its part considers use of conventional warheads in the 2nd arty corp of the PLA also does salvo launch practice. Is that anything PA does regularly? Or is it limited to the PLA?

You are correct ,in fact according to ex-DG DRDO the launch time of A5 with TCT-5 is as low as just 10 mins! With the advent of canisterized systems,the mating of warheads is done electronically and takes 10s of seconds as explained by ex-chairman of SFC india
and they are working on further reducing this time. In canisterized systems,the RCS(reaction control system) tanks are either empty or filled depending on the metallurgical prowess of the country. If you can develop metallurgy sufficiently advanced enough then you can keep the RCS tanks filled all the time and that would further reduce the launching time to hardly a couple of mins. The choice of materials for RCS is a very tricky subject especially for canisteried missiles that are sealed in SSBN silos or land based canisters(a problem that india faced in late 2000s).In fact to your surprise the most likely contender wont work in real life situations

Source: Two vehicle system for Pakistani Missiles?

Electronically? How do you mate the warhead to the missile electronically? You mean its a secure "key" that requires the arming of the warhead which is already mated? So the next question would be who is responsible in this "key" or electronic mating of the warheads?

 

[thesameguy]

hi @The Deterrent Deterrent
You are correct ,in fact according to ex-DG DRDO the launch time of A5 with TCT-5 is as low as just 10 mins! With the advent of canisterized systems,the mating of warheads is done electronically and takes 10s of seconds as explained by ex-chairman of SFC india
and they are working on further reducing this time. In canisterized systems,the RCS(reaction control system) tanks are either empty or filled depending on the metallurgical prowess of the country. If you can develop metallurgy sufficiently advanced enough then you can keep the RCS tanks filled all the time and that would further reduce the launching time to hardly a couple of mins. The choice of materials for RCS is a very tricky subject especially for canisteried missiles that are sealed in SSBN silos or land based canisters(a problem that india faced in late 2000s).In fact to your surprise the most likely contender wont work in real life situations

There seems to be some refuelling going on only on top stage. What this would be?

 

[JamD]

There seems to be some refuelling going on only on top stage. What this would be?
View attachment 272707

Not refueling. As you might know Shaheen is powered by a solid rocket motor and does not need to and cannot be refueled.

Those are wires for allowing the missile to communicate with the launcher for perhaps updating targeting information and monitoring system health. I am not sure what exactly but definitely not fuel related.

EDIT: I might be wrong and those are indeed fuel lines for RCS but I doubt it.

 

[thesameguy]

Not refueling. As you might know Shaheen is powered by a solid rocket motor and does not need to and cannot be refueled.

Those are wires for allowing the missile to communicate with the launcher for perhaps updating targeting information and monitoring system health. I am not sure what exactly but definitely not fuel related.

EDIT: I might be wrong and those are indeed fuel lines for RCS but I doubt it.

@The Deterrent what says you? There seems to be a refuelling going on in the picture above. It cannot be data input as one it is above the missile cable runner, the black lines on the sides of missile, two ,it's a last minute thing as being done just before launch, so clearly there is something driven by liquid fuel sat on top if solid fuel stage.

@amardeep mishra ........

 

[amardeep mishra]

@The Deterrent what says you? There seems to be a refuelling going on in the picture above. It cannot be data input as one it is above the missile cable runner, the black lines on the sides of missile, two ,it's a last minute thing as being done just before launch, so clearly there is something driven by liquid fuel sat on top if solid fuel stage.

@amardeep mishra ........

hi @thesameguy
it does seem to me the fuel line for fueling the RCS tanks of the shaheen missile.and the very fact that there aint any fuel lines connecting the lower stage of shaheen means that there aint any RCS in 1st stage- which means shaheen uses external control surfaces only during 1st stage for roll/pitch/yaw corrections. Now in exo-atmosphere or in space(above 100kms) when the missile has left the atmosphere then external control surfaces loose their relevance hence some sort of reaction control is needed- and thats why you're seeing those plugs connecting shaheen's upper stage.Attitude correction is also very important from telemetry point of view.You need to be able to point the onboard antennae in particular orientation.
Now coming to the problem of selection of material for RCS- it is very very crucial expecially for missiles that are canisterized and kept inside submarine silos or land based canisterized launchers such as TCT-5.Fueling of RCS tanks in missiles sealed inside canisters(such as TCT-5) would be a challenge. This would be almost impossible for SLBMs stored inside silos of SSBNs,hence in modern SLBMs like trident the RCS tank remain filled all the time.In india too with the development of canisterized systems for both land and SSBNs,they faced this problem in late 2000s and now they have developed RCS that would tackle this issue.Pakistan too would run into this trouble when she decides to design RCS for missiles sealed inside canisters

You mean its a secure "key" that requires the arming of the warhead which is already mated? So the next question would be who is responsible in this "key" or electronic mating of the warheads?

Offcourse yes,thats known as electronic mating

Not refueling. As you might know Shaheen is powered by a solid rocket motor and does not need to and cannot be refueled.

RCS uses liquid fuel man,normally hypergollic fuels are used in RCS.Your RCS is an element of attitude hold autopilot that runs in OBC(on board computer)

 

[The Deterrent]

Wouldn't a canister version have difficulty re-equipping warhead? Same rule applies. Keep the warheads away from launch platform to reduce risk of "accidental" launch. I think the "TNW" think going on is complete bull sh!te in that regard. The number of warheads needing security would increase exponentially. The PLA for its part considers use of conventional warheads in the 2nd arty corp of the PLA also does salvo launch practice. Is that anything PA does regularly? Or is it limited to the PLA?

There are literally dozens of links from warhead storage to assembly to integration to arming. In case of Nasr, the launcher does not have sealed canisters, meaning that missiles can be loaded and taken out any time. So similar protocols and security measures are followed as in case of strategic nuclear weapons, there is no need of added security as claimed by western experts. Neither is there any delegation of command.

@The Deterrent what says you? There seems to be a refuelling going on in the picture above. It cannot be data input as one it is above the missile cable runner, the black lines on the sides of missile, two ,it's a last minute thing as being done just before launch, so clearly there is something driven by liquid fuel sat on top if solid fuel stage.

@amardeep mishra has explained it quite well, either they are fuel lines for TCS hydrazine or high-voltage power supply for internal batteries. Anyways this was the first Shaheen-I missile tested, so procedures must have changed, meaning all steps of preparation are done when the missile is horizontal on the TEL.

 

[thesameguy]

hi @thesameguy
it does seem to me the fuel line for fueling the RCS tanks of the shaheen missile.and the very fact that there aint any fuel lines connecting the lower stage of shaheen means that there aint any RCS in 1st stage- which means shaheen uses external control surfaces only during 1st stage for roll/pitch/yaw corrections. Now in exo-atmosphere or in space(above 100kms) when the missile has left the atmosphere then external control surfaces loose their relevance hence some sort of reaction control is needed- and thats why you're seeing those plugs connecting shaheen's upper stage.Attitude correction is also very important from telemetry point of view.You need to be able to point the onboard antennae in particular orientation.
Now coming to the problem of selection of material for RCS- it is very very crucial expecially for missiles that are canisterized and kept inside submarine silos or land based canisterized launchers such as TCT-5.Fueling of RCS tanks in missiles sealed inside canisters(such as TCT-5) would be a challenge. This would be almost impossible for SLBMs stored inside silos of SSBNs,hence in modern SLBMs like trident the RCS tank remain filled all the time.In india too with the development of canisterized systems for both land and SSBNs,they faced this problem in late 2000s and now they have developed RCS that would tackle this issue.Pakistan too would run into this trouble when she decides to design RCS for missiles sealed inside canisters



Offcourse yes,thats known as electronic mating



RCS uses liquid fuel man,normally hypergollic fuels are used in RCS.Your RCS is an element of attitude hold autopilot that runs in OBC(on board computer)

What?
There can't be any fuel lined at the bottom as first andand only stage is solid fueled.
For course correction the missile uses jet vanes inside the rocket exhaust.
Top section or reentry vehicle is being fuelled just before launch as it's old pic when they did not have tank advanced enough to hold liquid rocket fuel for too long.
But fuel lines show the RV is pretty advanced fitted with vernier Rocket

 

[shaheenmissile]

There are literally dozens of links from warhead storage to assembly to integration to arming. In case of Nasr, the launcher does not have sealed canisters, meaning that missiles can be loaded and taken out any time. So similar protocols and security measures are followed as in case of strategic nuclear weapons, there is no need of added security as claimed by western experts. Neither is there any delegation of command.


@amardeep mishra has explained it quite well, either they are fuel lines for TCS hydrazine or high-voltage power supply for internal batteries. Anyways this was the first Shaheen-I missile tested, so procedures must have changed, meaning all steps of preparation are done when the missile is horizontal on the TEL.

But the picture shows the RV has own rocket propulsion and can maneuver. You have been advocating that Pakistan has no such capabilities and our missiles are Tad better than German WW2 V2 rockets and may be same as Scuds

 

[The Deterrent]

But the picture shows the RV has own rocket propulsion and can maneuver. You have been advocating that Pakistan has no such capabilities and our missiles are Tad better than German WW2 V2 rockets and may be same as Scuds

Where did I disagree with the TCS (RV's propulsion/maneuvering system)? However, it is used for pitching and correcting the trajectory rather than making evasive maneuvers.

 

[Viper0011.]

There seems to be some refuelling going on only on top stage. What this would be?
View attachment 272707

Data link, Diagnostics and the bigger wire also has a small net of heavy duty steal / copper wire that tie around the top of the missile / rocket, to keep it stable and roped up prior to a launch. This was the object is secured from the top, in case heavy winds or storms hit it. The bottom is already locked in and secured.

 

[amardeep mishra]

What?
There can't be any fuel lined at the bottom as first andand only stage is solid fueled.
For course correction the missile uses jet vanes inside the rocket exhaust.
Top section or reentry vehicle is being fuelled just before launch as it's old pic when they did not have tank advanced enough to hold liquid rocket fuel for too long.
But fuel lines show the RV is pretty advanced fitted with vernier Rocket

hi dear @thesameguy
Oh sorry i didnt know if jet vanes are used in first stage of shaheen.The technology of jet vanes is pretty old(developed at the time of ww2) and not used in modern strategic missiles(ICBMs). In modern ICBMs flex nozzles is the norm these days in which nozzle is controlled using eletromechanical actuators.The deflection is usually not more than 5-8 degrees.But flex nozzle too(just like jet vanes) can provide only pitch and yaw corrections and not roll corrections.
The problem with jet vanes is,it can provide pitch and yaw corrections but for roll corrections you would either need an external control surface or a reaction control system. I am sorry my friend but i assume you are not familiar with the complexities involved in the selection of proper material of RCS(especially when the missiles is sealed away in canisters or SSBN silos)

PS- all indian strategic missiles onwards of A2 have flex nozzles for pitching/yawing and RCS for roll corrections.This combination eliminates the need for any external control surfaces hence A3,A4,A5 and A6 doesnt have any external control surfaces. @The Deterrent

But the picture shows the RV has own rocket propulsion and can maneuver. You have been advocating that Pakistan has no such capabilities and our missiles are Tad better than German WW2 V2 rockets and may be same as Scuds

hi dear @shaheenmissile
If you mean a "maneuvering" warhead then you are gravely mistaken my friend for pakistan doesnt have technologies at the moment to design maneuvering of warheads.Because for that you'd need
1)seeker- either RF or IIR(usually IIR seeker is preferred over RF in exo- atmosphere because of itz inherent resistance to jamming(EW) and ability to distinguish between chaff/flares and actual RV using image correlation algorithms)
2)Guidance and control - seeker forms the part of your guidance loop whereas control surfaces/reaction control forms the part of control loop
3)GNC running in OBC
THe fuel lines you see are for RCS tanks my friend - that help in attitude corrections(angle theta- with respect to earth fixed axis). Now attitude corrections are not only important from re-entry point of view but also from telemetry point of view.