Tution or Cheating, Which Is Better?

[DeathGod]

Hi guys

Sunday morning and I think its time to open a new thread... Which might be closed after maybe a day but I guess still needs to be done.

When we talk about indigenous manufacturing, we get a lot of flak for being behind schedule, costs overruns etc etc. We somehow return the favor to China saying what they are doing is copying. Now there are two types of people here : one who think that copying is fine and it needs large industrial base and research labs even to copy complex technology while others are vehemently opposed to it.

My take on the same:

I think that the comparison between India's TOT & Chinese copying is similar to a student choosing between taking tutions or cheating.

One very well knows that the tutions are the hard and grinding way to success and requires conventional thinking and skills. Cheating is quick and perhaps simpler and requires a different type of skill.

On a moral level, a person cheating will always be aware of his/her true capabilities that when the word Innovation comes he/she will be lagging behind. In contrast a student willing to grind it out maybe a dumbster and take more time but will learn the subject more throughly and will be able to add to his current knowledge more fluidly.

Also the bad name attained when someone is caught cheating will be blot to the credibility of person which unfortunately in China's case tends to stick. ( Same is the case with Pakistan's nukes but that is well a more profound way of cheating )

All and all I think everyone will agree that cheating is bad . Tutions maybe slow and the hard way but they will give you much better returns then plain cheating.

However, today's world and infact every person should be built on an inclusive approach, where cheating is not prohibited , though should be limited only to an extent where one can learn and understand from the process. So if China cheats and then innovates and makes a better model of the same stuff then credit must go to her, however I somehow find that missing. On the other hand, India is still in primary and getting tutions for basic science ( as compared to western counterparts & in most areas) , a little cheating might not be such a bad thing , especially if one doesn't get caught.

Lastly I think both China and India follow different models. The critique of China is that its main focus is on cheating and stealing while it should be on innovation while India's problems lies in the fact that she wants to reinvent the wheel a little too much. Its like she wants to make a mistake and then learn from it ( & not learn from others mistakes).

Your thoughts guys...

 

[jagjitnatt]

India cannot cheat the way China does. China is copying everything, creating duplicate cars, phones, electronics, everything, but it can get away with it somehow. But if India starts doing the same, we would be in a deep ****.

Also China's method is excellent for the short term but sooner or later China would have to innovate and learn the basics too. India is doing it earlier so it will help India in the long run.

 

[lhuang]

India cannot cheat the way China does. China is copying everything, creating duplicate cars, phones, electronics, everything, but it can get away with it somehow. But if India starts doing the same, we would be in a deep ****.

Also China's method is excellent for the short term but sooner or later China would have to innovate and learn the basics too. India is doing it earlier so it will help India in the long run.

With power comes right, let anyone who has any problems with how we develop technology take it up with the officials. China and Chinese government don't give a **** about anything other than China. If we develop Chinas military at the expense of the profits that foreign companies would make, so be it.

You're grasping at straws trying to claim the moral high ground for not developing military gear from the exports of other countries. How can you claim this high ground when from this high position your soldiers die because their gear is barely better than that which the terrorists are equipped with.

India was faced with a choice, copy technology or let soldiers die. You chose let soldiers die.

 

[jagjitnatt]

India was faced with a choice, copy technology or let soldiers die. You chose let soldiers die.

Well, I would like to disagree there. We have the equipment, we have the soldiers and we have the moolah. But the kind of enemy we face here are not soldiers.

In a war, we know our enemy but here when a common man type looking guy leaves a suitcase filled with explosives somewhere and remotely blows up a building, none of the usual gear works.

The terrorists have the advantage of surprise, stealth, and surveillance.We cannot act unless they have already struck. They always hold defensive positions within cities holding hostages.

We cannot just blow them up using a rocket. Special operations need to be carried out and you know how risky they are. Lives are definitely lost.

You should thank God you don't face anything of this sort.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

When you have 5 hours to go from spot A to spo B ....

Does it matters if you took the bus or a taxi ... perhaps you would like to walk if that means getting to destination in 12 hours and failing your test

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Ok MR Azad Living by any virtue is ur policy but living with some certain virtue is our policy.... Regards.

 

[chinapakistan]

India cannot cheat the way China does. China is copying everything, creating duplicate cars, phones, electronics, everything, but it can get away with it somehow. But if India starts doing the same, we would be in a deep ****.

Your language is a copy of britsih, the numbers you are using is a copy of arabian number, japanese culture and language is a copy of chinese culture and language, your society system is a copy of west, and Linux use Unix as a fundation, All the countries copied and are copying each other. The human techonoly can progress so fast is bcoz every new technology use some copies of previous legacy technology as a fundation. Are you talking about every new technology should start from innovating a new number system without using arabian number? And one of the most important purpose of almost all technology community is sharing info.

Also China's method is excellent for the short term but sooner or later China would have to innovate and learn the basics too. India is doing it earlier so it will help India in the long run.

I dont know who can copy any technology without basics. And What doese your basics mean? And are you talking about you import all the electrisic machanry from china is bcoz you know basics but you dont wanna use legacy electrisic techonology? Indian skiped develeping industrials phase and jump to develep information phase from agriculture phase is your so called learn the basics?

BTW: Why you guys like taking long term and bla bla bla, and you should tell us what kind basics indian knew but chinese dont know about technology. Specify your basics, please.

 

[DeathGod]

Your language is a copy of britsih, the numbers you are using is a copy of arabian number, japanese culture and language is a copy of chinese culture and language, your society system is a copy of west, and Linux use Unix as a fundation,

The debate is not if we learn from other cultures/regions/etc or not. The debate is that what is the right way of learning. Is it cheating or taking classes?

 

[chinapakistan]

The debate is not if we learn from other cultures/regions/etc or not. The debate is that what is the right way of learning. Is it cheating or taking classes?

My post is a reply to jagjitnatt, and you should read my whole post.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

You need wisdom for cheating too , Its not a easy thing

 

[humanfirst]

@the chinese members please help me to clarify my doubts
1.Does the chinese law allows chinese companies to violate international copyright laws?Like in making copies of international brands,mobile phones,cars and other consumer products..Is it legal in china for a local manufacturer to produce fake copy of..say a cartier sun glass?
2.Is the law same regarding the chinese companies?Can a chinese company produce a fake copy of another popular brand?Is it legal there?
3.Regarding the purchase of milary equipments with end user agreement.When china signs eula it promises not to copy the technology.Is it legal in china to override an end user agreement signed by itself and copy the technology?
I an not doubting the capability of china but the legality of these issues in china.

 

[topjumper]

My my... the hate and dislike some of the indian members have for the chinese is disheartening sometimes. I wonder if we can ever get along if the mentalities don't change.

Here is the answer to your (pointless) question:

In your learning example, it is cheating if you get the answer without understanding/knowing it during an exam.

ToT or reverse engineering really is two different ways of learning a new technology: ToT -- you learn it from a teacher and he/she will direct you to the right direction from the very beginning to the end (but if he/she doesn't want to teach you the everything so you won't get an edge or be on level terms with them, then you are stuck); reverse engineering -- there is no teacher to hold your hand, you learn it by yourself, it's hard work but if you figure out everything you will be on level terms with your teacher.

India is paying for a lot of its weapons and some ToT and that's absolutely fine, many many other countries do that too, but please, don't ride the moral high horse and say ToT is learning (it's not really learning if you ask me, it's getting a handout, everyone pays the right price will get a ToT) but reverse engineering is cheating, because the way I see it, in terms of the amount of work required to understand a technology: Invention > Reverse Engineering > ToT (a fancy name for paying for an answer).

I don't mean to use this to say China somehow is better than India in any way, this is not my point, I'd rather see both of our countries being able to develop properly and are capable to invent world leading technologies. Reverse engineering or ToT either way it shows we are behind and are playing the catch up game.

For example, India will get a lot of ToT from Russia on T-50 and this will definitely improve your country's expertise in its related fields, and China on the other hand is developing its own and I wish we all can be successful at it, but please don't think that paying for a ToT is harder than reverse engineering.

Peace.

 

[topjumper]

With power comes right, let anyone who has any problems with how we develop technology take it up with the officials. China and Chinese government don't give a **** about anything other than China. If we develop Chinas military at the expense of the profits that foreign companies would make, so be it.

You're grasping at straws trying to claim the moral high ground for not developing military gear from the exports of other countries. How can you claim this high ground when from this high position your soldiers die because their gear is barely better than that which the terrorists are equipped with.

India was faced with a choice, copy technology or let soldiers die. You chose let soldiers die.

LHuang, please refrain from using the word "we" to represent the chinese people, many of your views expressed here does not represent China. You could be of whatever ethnicity but you are more like an Australian than a Chinese, if you are a chinese by ethnicity I suspect you might have grown up in Australia with an identity crisis, the Australians view you as a chinese but you don't really understand China that much and hence the interest in China's domestic and international affairs (and learning Mandarin, taking cultural classes etc etc), but learn to understand China first before you come out and "represent". Thank you for your understanding!

 

[no_name]

Is copying really that easy? If someone give you a fighter how do you copy it?

How do you make the outer body? What material you use? How to make the material have the desirable property? How to make the mold for it? What tolerance and machine required to make the components?

What is happening inside a chip? Parameters for radar and other equipments? Why are things wired up the way they do? How to make the engines? How many parts are there even in a landing gear? How technicians should be trained?

Difference between learning and copying is usually that for the former someone can guide you through the above questions and others.

If a component is not available or a approach does not work how do we find an equivalent?

 

[Tu tu]

Your language is a copy of britsih, the numbers you are using is a copy of arabian number, japanese culture and language is a copy of chinese culture and language, your society system is a copy of west, and Linux use Unix as a fundation, All the countries copied and are copying each other. The human techonoly can progress so fast is bcoz every new technology use some copies of previous legacy technology as a fundation. Are you talking about every new technology should start from innovating a new number system without using arabian number? And one of the most important purpose of almost all technology community is sharing info.



I dont know who can copy any technology without basics. And What doese your basics mean? And are you talking about you import all the electrisic machanry from china is bcoz you know basics but you dont wanna use legacy electrisic techonology? Indian skiped develeping industrials phase and jump to develep information phase from agriculture phase is your so called learn the basics?

BTW: Why you guys like taking long term and bla bla bla, and you should tell us what kind basics indian knew but chinese dont know about technology. Specify your basics, please.

i would like to constructively debate on this but it would derail the thread ......should i make a new one???????





@topic

to certain extent we all copy techniques..... something that has been invented is bound to be copied..... be it a sewing pin or nuclear bomb....

in my view a lots of tution + a lil bit of cheating makes a great combo........
whatever Chinese did morally right/wrong is other thing but the fact is that they are ahead of us......

PS: we all took tutions and we all cheated in our school times ..... atleast i did


Jai Hind!