Turkish Naval Programs

[Oublious]

I don't think so. DZKK has been using Standard Missile family for decades. And all plans are made for RIM-156 SM-2 Block IV, if not SM-3. The HQ's choice would be that too. But we had the same in T-LORADMIS as well. So it's a little bit unpredictable.

I think they will buy both.

 

[ANMDT]

Even if it's not big enough you can give top score to a vessel for 'ship range' title directly...

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Ok guys it seems we got HQ-9... Do you think TF-2000 will have naval HQ-9 ?..

@cabatli_53 @Combat-Master @Neptune @isoo

Bakan Yılmaz’dan Çin füzesi yanıtı: NATO sistemine entegre edilmeyecek!

For 1st ships ( planned batch) i dont think there will be,we are even not experienced with such a complicated system till now. After 1st ship reached to maturity to test indigenous systems on it, then maybe it will be deployed.

Lets integrate cafrad and then required management systems for ship management system,meanwhile we will have been completed a national AA missile family to deploy them on our TF-2000. Its a time period like 10 years , to complete all.

 

[Exocet]

SM-3 and SM-2 aren't direct competitors.
SM-3 is an BMD missile while SM-2 mostly engages aircraft.
It would be good.If we had both of them
....
I think SM-2 will be selected for anti-aircraft role since that aster 30 looks to be out of competition in recent news.
...
@xxxKULxxx
Üstadım yanlış anlaşılma var.Ben menzil olur ama yakıt kapasitesi olmaz diyorum.Mesela Virginia sınıfı SSN lerde yakıt çubuklarıni koydun mu 17 yıl gidiyor (7800 ton) bunlar ama aynı ağırlıkta bir destroyer 15000 bin km civarı oluyor menzil bildiğim kadarıyla(CODAG gibi itme sistemli)
Yanlış anlayan ben olabilirim ama demek istediğim bu.

 

[xxxKULxxx]

SM-3 and SM-2 aren't direct competitors.
SM-3 is an BMD missile while SM-2 mostly engages aircraft.
It would be good.If we had both of them
....
I think SM-2 will be selected for anti-aircraft role since that aster 30 looks to be out of competition in recent news.
...
@xxxKULxxx
Üstadım yanlış anlaşılma var.Ben menzil olur ama yakıt kapasitesi olmaz diyorum.Mesela Virginia sınıfı SSN lerde yakıt çubuklarıni koydun mu 17 yıl gidiyor (7800 ton) bunlar ama aynı ağırlıkta bir destroyer 15000 bin km civarı oluyor menzil bildiğim kadarıyla(CODAG gibi itme sistemli)
Yanlış anlayan ben olabilirim ama demek istediğim bu.

İkimiz de aynı şeyi söylüyoruz aslında esas olan menzil ama isoo aynı silahlara sahip olan korvet ve bot nasıl ayrılacak demişti ben de o yüzden botu korvetten ayırmak için cephane ve yakıt deposu büyüklüğüne vurgu yaptım. Esas olarak demek istediğim menzil uzunluğu ve cephane büyüklüğü de dikkate alınmak üzere vuruş gücü... Ama tabi savunma ağırlıklı ve saldırı ağırlıklı gemiler nasıl ayrılır bilmiyorum.. onu @isoo ve @Neptune çok daha iyi bilir. Bu konudaki cehaletimden belki yanlış bi fikir olabilir ama mesela 2 farklı karakteristik olabilir. Örneğin defence frigate attack frigate olabilir belki. Veya bir gemi aynı anda defence frigate/attack destroyer olabilir. Bu savunma/saldırı yeteneklerine göre belirlenir. Veya ben fena halde saçmaladım. Defence/attack diye bir ayrım var mıdır bilmiyorum ama sonuçta gemilerde savunma ve saldırı amaçlı olmak üzere farklı silahlar var...

 

[Exocet]

İkimiz de aynı şeyi söylüyoruz aslında esas olan menzil ama isoo aynı silahlara sahip olan korvet ve bot nasıl ayrılacak demişti ben de o yüzden botu korvetten ayırmak için cephane ve yakıt deposu büyüklüğüne vurgu yaptım. Esas olarak demek istediğim menzil uzunluğu ve cephane büyüklüğü de dikkate alınmak üzere vuruş gücü... Ama tabi savunma ağırlıklı ve saldırı ağırlıklı gemiler nasıl ayrılır bilmiyorum.. onu @isoo ve @Neptune çok daha iyi bilir. Bu konudaki cehaletimden belki yanlış bi fikir olabilir ama mesela 2 farklı karakteristik olabilir. Örneğin defence frigate attack frigate olabilir belki. Veya bir gemi aynı anda defence frigate/attack destroyer olabilir. Bu savunma/saldırı yeteneklerine göre belirlenir. Veya ben fena halde saçmaladım. Defence/attack diye bir ayrım var mıdır bilmiyorum ama sonuçta gemilerde savunma ve saldırı amaçlı olmak üzere farklı silahlar var...

Korvet ve bot radar büyüklüğünden. menzilden ve yapması gereken görevlerden ayrılabilir. Savunma saldırı konusunda da Geminin görevi AAW değilse kendini savunuyor.

 

[xxxKULxxx]

Korvet ve bot radar büyüklüğünden. menzilden ve yapması gereken görevlerden ayrılabilir. Savunma saldırı konusunda da Geminin görevi AAW değilse kendini savunuyor.

Elbette o şekilde ayrılır ama maksat bir standart belirlemekti... O yüzden hani dedim ya cephane ve yakıt depo büyüklüğüne vurgu yaptım bunlar gemiyi büyüten unsurlar diye. Aynı silahlara sahip korvet ve botu birbirinden ayıran unsurlar diye... O yüzden menzil ve cephane büyüklüğü dahil vuruş gücünden bahsettim standart belirleme açısından...

Bir de bahsettiğin AAW konusu var. Ben şöyle düşünmüştüm. Mesela diyelim ki korvet en düşük sınıf olsun ve 1 birim saldırı & 1 birim savunma puanı olsun. Fırkateynler 2'şer birim olsun böyle yükselsin, tabi menzil de belli mesafe aralıklarında da 1 birim, 2 birim diye yükselsin. Şimdi bi savaş gemisi düşünelim. Savunması 1 birim gücünde saldırısı 2 birim yani destroyer gücünde. Gemi adı da anadolu olsun mesela. Gemi şöyle adlandırılabilir mi ? ANADOLU Defence Corvette/Attack Frigate... Ya da kısaca ANADOLU DC/AF... gibi... Örnekleri çoğaltalım... TRAKYA DF/AF... Yani ne bileyim aklıma geldi... Maksat muhabbet olsun... Menzil de yine bir harfle eklenebilir. Corvette Range, Frigate Range, Destroyer Range, Cruiser Range. Mesela VATAN DD/AD/CR. VATAN DEFENCE DESTROYER/ATTACK DESTROYER/CRUISER RANGE.

Neyse uydura uydura bi hal oldum benden bu kadar...

 

[ANMDT]

Elbette o şekilde ayrılır ama maksat bir standart belirlemekti... O yüzden hani dedim ya cephane ve yakıt depo büyüklüğüne vurgu yaptım bunlar gemiyi büyüten unsurlar diye. Aynı silahlara sahip korvet ve botu birbirinden ayıran unsurlar diye... O yüzden menzil ve cephane büyüklüğü dahil vuruş gücünden bahsettim standart belirleme açısından...

Tartışılan mesele aslında gereksiz, olayın zaten bir standartı yok , kimsede bizi bu gemiye korvet diyeceksiniz, bunada muhrip diyeceksiniz diye diretmiyor. Daha ziyade geminin üzerine yüklenen görev tanımı ve geminin boyutları etkileyici faktör oluyor, bot korvetten daha küçüktür, silahlarını yakaladığı bir hedef üzerinde harcayıp hızlıca üsse geri gelip yeniden yükleme görevindedir, otonom süresi düşüktür .
Menzilin hiçbir önemi yok artık, gemiler filo olarak gittiği için zaten filoda takviye gemileri var .

Zaten bir geminin menzili yanı sıra otonom süresini gemide bulunan kumanya belirler . Menzil ise tam dolu yakıtla gidip gelebildiği mesafeyi , eğer bir gemiye kumanya takviyesi yapılabiliyorsa, yakıt takviyeside yapılır.

SSN lerde yakıt çubuklarının sebebi menzili uzatmak değil, havadan bağımsızlık sağlamaktır. Son zamanlar makine gürültüsünün azaltılması bir diğer etken olarak görülmeye başlandı.

Muhrip, fırkateyn , karakol botu ,korvet gibi tanımların bir kısmı eski zamanlardan ,bir kısmıda 2. Dünya savaşından gelmekte. Menzil, boyutun yanısıra, üzerine yüklenen görevlerde bu isimlerin verilmesinde etken oynadı, 2. Dünya savaşından itibaren donanma savaşlarındaki strateji değişikliği bu isimlerin artık işlevlerini de değiştirmeye başladı.

Şurada belki 10 sene sonra insansız ASW'ler çıkmaya başlayınca belki 60-70 metrede, 140 metrelik gemilerin silah ve sensorleri yer alacak, ve menzil açısındanda, 140 metlerik gemilerden daha üstün olacak. DARPA bile henüz , insansız bir dizaynda geminin nasıl değiştireleceği üzerine çalışıyor.

Elbette o şekilde ayrılır ama maksat bir standart belirlemekti... O yüzden hani dedim ya cephane ve yakıt depo büyüklüğüne vurgu yaptım bunlar gemiyi büyüten unsurlar diye. Aynı silahlara sahip korvet ve botu birbirinden ayıran unsurlar diye... O yüzden menzil ve cephane büyüklüğü dahil vuruş gücünden bahsettim standart belirleme açısından...

Bir de bahsettiğin AAW konusu var. Ben şöyle düşünmüştüm. Mesela diyelim ki korvet en düşük sınıf olsun ve 1 birim saldırı & 1 birim savunma puanı olsun. Fırkateynler 2'şer birim olsun böyle yükselsin, tabi menzil de belli mesafe aralıklarında da 1 birim, 2 birim diye yükselsin. Şimdi bi savaş gemisi düşünelim. Savunması 1 birim gücünde saldırısı 2 birim yani destroyer gücünde. Gemi adı da anadolu olsun mesela. Gemi şöyle adlandırılabilir mi ? ANADOLU Defence Corvette/Attack Frigate... Ya da kısaca ANADOLU DC/AF... gibi... Örnekleri çoğaltalım... TRAKYA DF/AF... Yani ne bileyim aklıma geldi... Maksat muhabbet olsun... Menzil de yine bir harfle eklenebilir. Corvette Range, Frigate Range, Destroyer Range, Cruiser Range. Mesela VATAN DD/AD/CR. VATAN DEFENCE DESTROYER/ATTACK DESTROYER/CRUISER RANGE.

Neyse uydura uydura bi hal oldum benden bu kadar...

Amerika kadar çeşit çeşit gemimiz olsa mantıklı . Destroyer yerine muhrip kullanırız, en azından karşılığı var. Korvet , Fırkateyn zaten aynısın. Bot, karakol botu ,Taarruz botu , DD, DDG, FFG , MMG olur,KG olur , FFG zaten aynı olur. Saldırı /savunma diye ayırmayada gerke yok , genelde küçük gemiler yakın sularda saldırı, büyük gemiler, saldırı / filo savunma görevi üstleniyorlar.

Aselsan works on a Towed array sonar, which is able to operate at 22 Knots, possible to be integrated on TF-100.

 

[Exocet]

I don't believe that unmanned ships will take over the roles of manned ones in near future.
......
What is this picture? @isoo @Neptune @xxxKULxxx I saw it in a discussion of national FAC project
....
With the coming of LHD will there be a CSG like LHD+ 1 TF-2000 + 2 TF-100?
...
There will be a ski jump in LHD. Is there a plan to purchase F-35B for it?

 

[xxxKULxxx]

I don't believe that unmanned ships will take over the roles of manned ones in near future.
......
What is this picture? @isoo @Neptune @xxxKULxxx I saw it in a discussion of national FAC project
....
With the coming of LHD will there be a CSG like LHD+ 1 TF-2000 + 2 TF-100?
...
There will be a ski jump in LHD. Is there a plan to purchase F-35B for it?

Picture is RMK MARINE's Turkish FAC offer

Most probably there is a plan to purchase F-35B

 

[xxxKULxxx]

Aselsan works on a Towed array sonar, which is able to operate at 22 Knots, possible to be integrated on TF-100.

@cabatli_53

 

[Neptune]

Guys I am sorry that I didn't respond to your mentions but. I didn't get the notification alarm. I just saw them when I was surfing. There must be something wrong in the website.

 

[Exocet]

Yeah site crashed several times nowadays.

 

[ANMDT]

I don't believe that unmanned ships will take over the roles of manned ones in near future.
......
What is this picture? @isoo @Neptune @xxxKULxxx I saw it in a discussion of national FAC project
....
With the coming of LHD will there be a CSG like LHD+ 1 TF-2000 + 2 TF-100?
...
There will be a ski jump in LHD. Is there a plan to purchase F-35B for it?

Its a FAC but it doesnt fullfill the RfP issues for Turkish FAC project . Its alluminum hull, which is planning hull, driven by 2 or 4 (or turbine) engines by 3 water jet , 2 is maneuvering,one is boosting.

This design is completed 3 years ago , it even has options of 2 quadruple SSM , stringer AA missile, 2 Ciws ,but unfortunately it lacks in sensors , counters. Also it was a modular design to be used as patrol , coast guard, fast intervention , FAC.

This is design is quite good for deploying commandos, anti-piracy operations, patrolling .and engagement. Its aliminum hull is 40 percent lighter than the same designed steel hull.

Tubitak offered a major economical support for this vessel's prototype with technical assistance. It was planned to be 1st aliminum structure Fast vessel of turkey ,unfortunately RMK suspended this project because of pressure from Government during Gezi parkı protests ,and the engineer designed it have been to somewhere else than RMK. (so far i heard he got offers from Russia ship design bureu ,which designs russian warships, and Korea).

To brief,this is old design which is totally designed indegenously , with a lower RCS compared to its rivals with same material. But this is not RMK's offer for FAC project. Its just R&D conducted by RMK years ago.

@xxxKULxxx , i head about sonar directly from a staff of Aselsan. They said " We need a test ship ,that we can test our equipments, such as attack and defence torpedoes, decoys , and Sonar, which is tower . This is why we need 20+(22 ) knots of speed criteria, to deploy and operate and take the system back to ship at that speed " . Further, they want to involve with commercial ship sector for radars, electronics . So " we need a civilian to ship our equipment, that we can cut, weld something, re-build as we want to, also prove ability of application of those equipments on a civilian vessel, unlike we have done till now, by conducting tests on the naval vessels, which is building. We want to gain freedoom for test and qualification ".

Well this is enough

I don't believe that unmanned ships will take over the roles of manned ones in near future.
......
What is this picture? @isoo @Neptune @xxxKULxxx I saw it in a discussion of national FAC project
....
With the coming of LHD will there be a CSG like LHD+ 1 TF-2000 + 2 TF-100?
...
There will be a ski jump in LHD. Is there a plan to purchase F-35B for it?

There will be also one DİMDEG .

 

[Exocet]

Its a FAC but it doesnt fullfill the RfP issues for Turkish FAC project . Its alluminum hull, which is planning hull, driven by 2 or 4 (or turbine) engines by 3 water jet , 2 is maneuvering,one is boosting.

This design is completed 3 years ago , it even has options of 2 quadruple SSM , stringer AA missile, 2 Ciws ,but unfortunately it lacks in sensors , counters. Also it was a modular design to be used as patrol , coast guard, fast intervention , FAC.

This is design is quite good for deploying commandos, anti-piracy operations, patrolling .and engagement. Its aliminum hull is 40 percent lighter than the same designed steel hull.

Tubitak offered a major economical support for this vessel's prototype with technical assistance. It was planned to be 1st aliminum structure Fast vessel of turkey ,unfortunately RMK suspended this project because of pressure from Government during Gezi parkı protests ,and the engineer designed it have been to somewhere else than RMK. (so far i heard he got offers from Russia ship design bureu ,which designs russian warships, and Korea).

To brief,this is old design which is totally designed indegenously , with a lower RCS compared to its rivals with same material. But this is not RMK's offer for FAC project. Its just R&D conducted by RMK years ago.

@xxxKULxxx , i head about sonar directly from a staff of Aselsan. They said " We need a test ship ,that we can test our equipments, such as attack and defence torpedoes, decoys , and Sonar, which is tower . This is why we need 20+(22 ) knots of speed criteria, to deploy and operate and take the system back to ship at that speed " . Further, they want to involve with commercial ship sector for radars, electronics . So " we need a civilian to ship our equipment, that we can cut, weld something, re-build as we want to, also prove ability of application of those equipments on a civilian vessel, unlike we have done till now, by conducting tests on the naval vessels, which is building. We want to gain freedoom for test and qualification ".

Well this is enough



There will be also one DİMDEG .

First i read it as Towed array radar and said "Dafuq" Then i noticed it was sonar.
....
Its radar seems very small indeed but who is developed those SSM launchers? They are not Harpoons original.Also ship seems to be very small. Its endurance wouldn't be long enough to impress navy i think. Alumuinium bodies crack easily in impacts.Same problem also exists in LCS of america, many people say that USN ships are designed to fight, take punch and continue. They criticize LCS for being not survivable in hostile areas.
....
What is DİMDEG?

 

[ANMDT]

First i read it as Towed array radar and said "Dafuq" Then i noticed it was sonar.
....
Its radar seems very small indeed but who is developed those SSM launchers? They are not Harpoons original.Also ship seems to be very small. Its endurance wouldn't be long enough to impress navy i think. Alumuinium bodies crack easily in impacts.Same problem also exists in LCS of america, many people say that USN ships are designed to fight, take punch and continue. They criticize LCS for being not survivable in hostile areas.
....
What is DİMDEG?

This ship was just R&D, not for FAC project . In a suitable project this ship is actually will be quite good and impressive.

Launchers are foreigner made, directly thought to be mounted ( 3 years ago) . But at the moment roketsan already builts such launchers for SSM missiles.

Aliminum is the material used for aerospace engineering, high impact endurance and good strength/weight ratio. Its durable against impacts as well as steel ,because there are variety of aliminum alloy, as well as there are for steel. Problem about aliminum is, its sensitive to temperature so its not durable against explosions as much as steel. But thats the point, after the explosive got reached to plate of steel or aliminum, it doesnt matter ,it will give damage.

Survability isnt about the material going to be broken or not, its about whether ship will survive after damaged, how much damage it can receive. LCS is designed to be avoid damage ,and focused on intence protection of ship. Freedoom,doesnt have such a survability issue because its regular monohull, while Independence is a trimaran and has survability issues .

Material problem emerged in LCS indepence is because of application of steel foundation for machinery , it causes a corrosion in aliminum . Because of the lack of the protective material , this happened. Later they solved it with anode-catode application and finally used active system to neutralize current between steel and aliminum.

All materials has handicaps and advantages, just because steel is applied for long term of time ,a well known and easily weldable ,formable material. Aliminum has hardships in building, high cost to process.

Denizde ikmal muhabere destek gemisi ( dimdeg) designed by Adik.

*1) impact and explosion are 2 different terms.
*2) LCS ,littoral combat ship ,not designed to fight in intense combat conditions. As well as CVN's are not designed for such condition.
*3) main reason that LCS got criticized is over budget ,and not working modular design ( with fastly mountable modules),and not manuvarable as its expected for piers