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TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

If things go down the funny, non-traditional route for Turkey (as it is going at the moment), and if Turkey decides to buy technology I really wouldn't be surprised if the engines used in this thing are Saturn AL-41F1 or AL-41F1S, or even Klimov RD-33OVT's (if not specifically these versions, perhaps their predecessors or derivatives).
 
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Hi guys I just joined the forum. I have been a lurker for some time now. The reason I joined was because I have some questions, regarding the TFX, Anka, and other Turkish projects. @cabatli_53 seems to be familiar with these matters, but if anyone provides his opinions I would be very glad. Okay here are my questions on the TFX:

1- What is the latest update on the program? I heard some people in some other forums saying that the project is probably going to be terminated since talks with BAE haven't progressed well, and there aren't many other suitable partners for Turkey.

2- It took Russia 8 years to design Sukhoi Su-35. While Su-35 has a huge commonality with Su-27, Russia has decades of experience in aircraft design, and Su-35 is not even a 5th gen fighter. Considering this how can anyone even hope that the TFX will be ready before 2030 (let alone 2023)? Am I missing something? I love my country as much as the next guy, but being realistic is also important i think.

3- Why has Turkey never considered reverse engineering some Russian products? Iran seems to be successful in it, China did it, many countries do. And yet Turkey has always decided to "invent the wheel" to put it crudely. Of course, this type of work has its own problems, but definitely not as much as the alternative.

Thank you all wonderful people for your responses in advance.
 
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It will make it's first flight at 2023, it will not be functional and completed until 2030s.
 
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1- What is the latest update on the program? I heard some people in some other forums saying that the project is probably going to be terminated since talks with BAE haven't progressed well, and there aren't many other suitable partners for Turkey.
Tbh,nobody knows whats going on,many speculations,nothing concrete.
2- It took Russia 8 years to design Sukhoi Su-35. While Su-35 has a huge commonality with Su-27, Russia has decades of experience in aircraft design, and Su-35 is not even a 5th gen fighter. Considering this how can anyone even hope that the TFX will be ready before 2030 (let alone 2023)? Am I missing something? I love my country as much as the next guy, but being realistic is also important i think.
Just be realistic.
3- Why has Turkey never considered reverse engineering some Russian products? Iran seems to be successful in it, China did it, many countries do. And yet Turkey has always decided to "invent the wheel" to put it crudely. Of course, this type of work has its own problems, but definitely not as much as the alternative.
Ever seen a complicated product becoming better by reverse engineering?
Did you see those reverse engineered Iranian defence products or even some of the Chinese defence products,although the Chinese have a better base and one of the best developed military industry complexes,they still havent got a fully functioning indigenous jet engine.
Its never easy.
 
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1- What is the latest update on the program? I heard some people in some other forums saying that the project is probably going to be terminated since talks with BAE haven't progressed well, and there aren't many other suitable partners for Turkey.

On the contrary, there are a lot of suitable partners. Russia, Japan, Ukraine are a few...

2- It took Russia 8 years to design Sukhoi Su-35. While Su-35 has a huge commonality with Su-27, Russia has decades of experience in aircraft design, and Su-35 is not even a 5th gen fighter. Considering this how can anyone even hope that the TFX will be ready before 2030 (let alone 2023)? Am I missing something? I love my country as much as the next guy, but being realistic is also important i think.

Money was the real issue behind how long it took... Although the whole idea of a Turkish fighter is interesting, I think that the end is gradually coming for planes with pilots in them, as most humans break long before the plane does... it is easier to omit the pilot from the plane and make planes for the computer game generation (that has more flight hours on game fighting enemies than most military pilots get in a career).. A good example is, a decade back I saw new battle field management systems, the current military commanders lacked skills in their usage, however if you've ever really played RTS your average decisions per second should be around 5-10, and you would pretty much slaughter easily any existing commander in a battle simulation...

3- Why has Turkey never considered reverse engineering some Russian products? Iran seems to be successful in it, China did it, many countries do. And yet Turkey has always decided to "invent the wheel" to put it crudely. Of course, this type of work has its own problems, but definitely not as much as the alternative.

Thank you all wonderful people for your responses in advance.

Most of Iran's stuff, might look cool in theory, but in practice they lack a lot (they're engineers are lacking for some odd reason). But, considering that countries like Korea have succeeded in reverse engineering, and combing US & Russian tech into their own, I think this is possible, Turkish engineers like finding solutions and in some fields they are good at it.. the main reason Turkey doesn't do or hasn't done this in the past is the amount of lobbying that goes on to kill off products that don't suit agendas A good example is the Bayraktar UAV project, I from friends know for fact that there were people in the military who wanted to kill it off, in favor of buying systems from Israel, and US, and who deliberately stalled them.... p.s. why reverse engineer when you can buy the damn technology from willing sellers.

Ever seen a complicated product becoming better by reverse engineering?
Did you see those reverse engineered Iranian defence products or even some of the Chinese defence products,although the Chinese have a better base and one of the best developed military industry complexes,they still havent got a fully functioning indigenous jet engine.
Its never easy.

True.. but a funny way around engine problems could be making a modular plane, that can be fitted with engines of different manufacturers. (Japanese anime logic) I think Turkey will eventually develop its jet engine technology, though who knows how and when that will be.
 
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Full text of Aviation week:


Sierra Nevada Corp./TAI Team To Offer Freedom Trainer For T-X

Dec 16, 2016 James Drew | Aviation Week & Space Technology


Sierra Nevada Corp. (SNC) and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) are betting that the U.S. Air Force is seeking a fuel-efficient advanced pilot trainer to succeed the outdated Northrop T-38 Talon, like the one the companies plan to offer.

With the spotlight shining on the major primes until now, the two businesses have quietly set up shop in Centennial, Colorado, as Freedom Aircraft Ventures LLC, to develop a lightweight, all-composite trainer powered by two business jet-class engines.

The company tells Aviation Week in exclusive interviews that it intends to enter the jam-packed race for the T-X, offering an “economical” trainer alternative to those being pitched by rivals Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon. The clean-sheet aircraft has been designed by an integrated team of engineers from SNC and TAI, who have been working for some time at the joint venture’s headquarters near Denver.


Dream Chaser

»SNC/TAI pitch lightweight, FJ44-4M-powered Freedom Trainer

»Single prototype being built in Colorado for flight evaluations

»American-made advanced pilot trainer aimed at domestic and international air forces, but based on U.S. T-X requirements

»Freedom Aircraft Ventures LLC registered in Centennial, Colorado



Better known for its satellites and Dream Chaser spaceplane, the Sparks, Nevada-based company’s Turkish-American owners Fatih and Eren Ozmen, CEO and owner/president, respectively, want to play in the big leagues and see military aircraft manufacturing as a key driver of growth.

They singled out the military trainer market after sensing demand for more than 1,200 aircraft globally, driven partly by the introduction of the Lockheed F-35 Lightning II, with the largest potential order being the U.S. government’s requirement for 350 or more T-X aircraft.


The company’s twin-tail, moderately swept-wing trainer with a tricycle landing gear and step-tandem cockpit is powered by the Williams International FJ44-4M, a 3,600-lb.-thrust-class engine chosen by the Aero Vodochody L-39NG and Leonardo/Alenia Aermacchi M-345 High-Efficiency Trainer. Williams certified the engine in 2010 for the light business jet market, providing a cruise speed of up to 450 kt. over a 2,000-nm range with 5,000 flight hours between overhauls. It was chosen as the Freedom Trainer offering due to its relatively inexpensive procurement and sustainment costs as well as fuel efficiency, with the company saying it can buy two Williams engines for half the cost of one high-power military turbofan.

The company already has one flying prototype in development, and it intends to answer the long-awaited T-X request for proposals (RFP) once released by the Air Force. The timing of the RFP will not be affected by the stopgap funding measure passed by Congress, since it is not a new-start program. The air force says a RFP notification could come any day, otherwise it will push into January due to holidays.


DF-FREEDOMTRAINER_SierraNevadaCorp.jpg


SNC/TAI’s proposal is for a purely a fly-by-wire trainer, seeming to leave little design margin for secondary light-attack or aggressor roles. Instead, the aircraft digitally replicates radar intercepts, precision-guided munition drops and the use of targeting pods. The aircraft is no larger than the GE J85-5-powered T-38 and consumes 30% less fuel, allowing weight reductions across the board to boost high subsonic performance at lower thrust levels. “We’re focusing on open architecture and lowest total ownership cost,” one company executive explains. The Freedom Trainer also is designed to fully comply with the Air Force’s Open Mission System standards to prevent “vendor-lock,” even though that requirement was dropped. “We did not want to drive costly design/redesign into systems that may otherwise meet the objective requirement,” an Air Force Life Cycle Management Center official says. SNC believes buying into any proprietary systems will drive up costs later.

The company says the Freedom Trainer will likely cost less to buy and sustain than its higher-powered competitors and consume 40-50% less fuel, while still meeting all threshold and objective performance requirements, including 6.5-7.5g sustained and high angle-of-attack maneuverability.

“In this day of tight budgets and looming operations and sustainment bow waves, it only makes sense for the Air Force to spend less up-front so they can save more over the life cycle, which is why this training system makes so much sense,” Fatih Ozmen says.

SNC is the prime contractor, with financial and intellectual input from TAI, it notes. “We’re not just a pretty face,” the company says. “We didn’t start off with a design from Turkey or anyplace else.” The single prototype under construction in Colorado, and the overall program, can be accelerated as needed to meet the Air Force’s schedule requirements for T-X. It has not been decided where in the U.S. serial production would occur, and there is potential for coproduction overseas for foreign buyers, the company says. It has some experience in this arena, having teamed with Brazil’s Embraer to set up an A-29 Super Tucano factory in Jacksonville, Florida, which is now delivering aircraft for the Afghan and Lebanese air forces.

T-X is the single largest opportunity for SNC, but it will complete the trainer even if it loses, with opportunities in Australia, Turkey and many other nations that are inducting modern warplanes. “We’ve cast a wide net,” a company official says.

Freedom Trainer was purposefully designed from the outset to meet Air Force training and airworthiness standards, which are well regarded by other air arms. The aircraft incorporates “live, virtual and constructive” training elements, provisions for aerial refueling, data links and communication radios woven into a high-performance aircraft with a fifth-generation cockpit, sensor suite and avionics. The overall training system requires “very little invention,” the company notes.


SNC is renowned for keeping a low profile, having also silently competed unsuccessfully in the Air Force’s first round of contracts for the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System, or J-Stars, replacement program.

The company has again kept quiet while finalizing its teaming arrangements and developing the T-X proposal. It has been engaging directly with the government, steering clear of industry days.

“We don’t want to surprise people in the Defense Department and Air Force, but we do want to surprise the industry,” says one company official. “It’s not just about T-X per se; we’re looking at an international advanced trainer.”

The Air Force confirmed engagement with SNC, saying it keeps an “open dialogue” with all companies that express interest in the T-X competition. The service says it welcomes any proposals that meet its requirements.

SNC is lining up against sizable primes: the first, second, fourth and sixth largest defense OEMs in the world by 2015 revenue. Lockheed Martin and Korea Aerospace Industries are offering to build the Golden Eagle-based T-50A in Greenville, South Carolina. Raytheon and Leonardo would set up a T-100 final assembly and checkout facility plant in Meridian, Mississippi. Boeing and Saab unveiled their clean-sheet trainer in St. Louis in September, without having picked a final assembly location. The Northrop Grumman/Scaled Composites/BAE Systems/L-3 team has not shown its hand, except through leaked photos on social media. Its T-X prototype is flying routinely at the Mojave Air and Space Port in California.


SNC’s annual revenue has grown to $2 billion since being bought by the Ozmens in 1994. The majority of its revenue comes from space systems and special forces programs. TAI has significant aerospace aircraft manufacturing clout in Turkey, having license-built more than 300 F-16s and now center fuselages for the F-35 as a second source. The company is producing the Hurkus Free Bird turboprop basic trainer as well as helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles and a next-generation fighter for the Turkish government.

The Ozmens’ ethnic tie is with Turkey, and they are helping that nation develop a regional jet based on the Dornier 328, with TAI as a major subcontractor. It seems a natural fit, but the SNC/TAI partnership for T-X is not without headwinds due to the political and security situation in the NATO-allied nation. The unsuccessful military coup against President Recep Erdogan in July resulted in a governmentwide purge, and war continues to rage across the borders in Syria and Iraq.

SNC says the joint venture with TAI is solid, postcoup. TAI immediately sent an envoy to the U.S. to reaffirm its commitment to Freedom Trainer. “The talent from TAI has been phenomenal,” SNC points out. “They brought their A-Team. We’ve cast a wide net,” a company official says.

SNC says it aims to be a disruptive innovator, and its Freedom Trainer “family of systems” is the embodiment of that ethos, from the aircraft to the ground-based training system, simulators and courseware, and logistics chain. “The aircraft is just another training device,” the company notes. “We want the students to go off to their weapon systems with as high a quality training experience as possible, but focusing on doing it at the lowest possible cost per graduate.

“We think a lot of our solutions are groundbreaking innovations,” the company continues. “We took an engine that can meet [our requirements] and built an airplane around it.”

The U.S. government plans to retain 546 T-38A/B/Cs. While some play aggressor roles in flying exercises or support weapons testing, 431 Talons support undergraduate training for pilot selected to fly fighters or bombers. The Air Education and Training Command expects to phase out its T-38 between 2023-29 as the T-X comes online, targeting initial operational capability by fiscal 2024.

The source-selection process will take about one year, with a development contract expected in early fiscal 2018. Low-rate production should start in fiscal 2022.
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US T-X contenders:

- Boeing / Saab (BTX1 - N38ITX)
- Northrop Grumman / Scaled Composites / BAE systems / L-3 (N400nt)
- Lockheed Martin / Korea Aerospace Industries (T-50A)
- Raytheon / Leonardo / Honeywell / CAE USA (T-100)
- Sierra Nevada corp. / Turkish Aerospace Industries (Freedom Trainer)
 
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The company tells Aviation Week in exclusive interviews that it intends to enter the jam-packed race for the T-X, offering an “economical” trainer alternative to those being pitched by rivals Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon. The clean-sheet aircraft has been designed by an integrated team of engineers from SNC and TAI, who have been secretly working for some time at the joint venture’s headquarters near Denver.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-indigenous-jet-fighter-program-tx-fx.256669/page-75#ixzz4UYqfGerq
 
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TAI ve Sierra Nevada Corp, Amerikanin ihtiyaci olan Advance Trainer T-X icin bir yildir gizli olarak Amerikanin Colorado eyaletinde 50% ortak olarak gelistirdikleri Freedom Trainer in prototype i bitmek uzere. Umariz TAI&SNC ihaleyi kazanir ve Turkiye olarak Amerika devletine ucak satmaya baslariz.
Ayrica benim anladigim kadariyla TAI-F-16 ve Freedom Trainer T_X in calismalrindan birikmlerinden ogrendiklerini bizim sabirsizlikla bekledigimiz TFX e aktarmasi, ve ayrica Boeing, Northrop, Lockheed gibi firmalarla ayni sahada top kosturmasi bizim gosumuzu kabartiyor. Basarilarinizin devamini dileriz.
 
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Tbh,nobody knows whats going on,many speculations,nothing concrete.

Just be realistic.

Ever seen a complicated product becoming better by reverse engineering?
Did you see those reverse engineered Iranian defence products or even some of the Chinese defence products,although the Chinese have a better base and one of the best developed military industry complexes,they still havent got a fully functioning indigenous jet engine.
Its never easy.
We already have domestic WS10 turbo jet engine on our fighters( 200 plus fighters), but engine development is quite difficult. Cause we had been imposed arms embargo by the west. The WS15 engine produce Max 190KN wet thrust is undergoing development, will be implemented at year 2019.

Even Turkey is a NATO member, I don't think EU and USA will TOT engine tech to you. Means Turkey has to study by yourself.
 
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We already have domestic WS10 turbo jet engine on our fighters( 200 plus fighters), but engine development is quite difficult. Cause we had been imposed arms embargo by the west. The WS15 engine produce Max 190KN wet thrust is undergoing development, will be implemented at year 2019.

Even Turkey is a NATO member, I don't think EU and USA will TOT engine tech to you. Means Turkey has to study by yourself.
We have a program but in very early stages.
Who knows,we might buy your engine in the future.
 
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