TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Tayfun Öksüzoğlu]

I think you're referring to the the Saturn AL-117 engines? China isn't trying to buy the Russian engine's design, it's trying the copy it and call it its own. With China being one of Russia's biggest customers as well as a long-term strategic partner against the US/the West, they have a special and complex relationship. That's not the case between Turkey and the West.

There's nothing in this world that doesn't have a price tag, certainly no jet engine. I'm not suggesting that Turkey go and try purchasing the top-of-the line jet engine technology. I'm suggesting we buy off an "older but sufficient" design. Sufficient for the purposes of ensuring adequate propulsion for the first few TFX fighters, and sufficient for establishing a baseline technology level in engine know-how that we can build upon, saving us valuable time.

If we go with what the Brits are selling, the Brits will have pretty much full control. As for an R&D center, it doesn't add up to anything other than "goz boyama" like we say in Turkish. The devil's hidden in the details and we need to be able to read in between the lines and look at the effects of what we're doing today at 10-20 years down the road. If we BUY an older design, it'll undoubtedly also give us an R&D center as the purpose, by definition, is to meet today's needs AND build upon that technology for the future needs.

If we want to be independent, we must do it on our own. Brits may allow us to build some parts for their engines, but it'll come with a certain set of conditions attached. Conditions that may and probably will tie Turkey's hands at some point in the future. Considering Turkey's complex geopolitics, we must always opt for the option with the least strings attached. That's why it's better to simply buy an older tech and then nationalize it, build upon it.

Ergo, do with the jet engine what we did with the T-129, Firtina and Altay...

Amen.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Just to help put things in context... It took Sukhoi, a company with decades of experience building fighters, 8 years to conceptualize the T-50 (PAK FA) despite the fact that it shares many common parts, avionics, code, manufacturing processes, assembly line, maintenance tools and know-how with previous platforms.

Even though Turkey consults with Saab and a few other international partners in limited capacity, it still needs to mature many different technologies locally before a TFX prototype can be put together. And that's only the beginning. The actual challenge will be trying to push it for export and applying economies of scale.

To name a few...

-- Engine/powerplant, no national(ized) engine = no TFX
-- Supersonic aerodynamics, RCS and IR signature minimization, RAM materials, electronic waveguides, active radar cancellation and jamming
-- High load landing system and tires, fail-proof hydraulics, brushless high-G servos for control surfaces, retractable carrier hook (if to be used on TCG Anadolu)
-- Internal weapons bay, internal high-G hardpoints, volume maximization
-- Ejection seat system (this can also be bought off the shelf from Martin-Baker, etc.)
-- AESA radar, radar gimbal, radar cooling, cooled thermal detectors, radar warning receivers, basic built-in SIGINT capability , national IFF
-- On board oxygen generator, G-suit pressurizer, pilot vitals monitor
-- Sensor data fusion technologies, modern HUD/HMCS, cockpit pressurization/heating/cooling
-- Aerial refueling boom receptor, fuel pump, safety cutoff, engine fire monitoring and suppression system
-- New generation FCS, flight computer, solid state data storage and encryption, x-band sat com, qu/s/l band (radar) communications, networking and data fusion
...

 

[Babur Han]

Just to help put things in context... It took Sukhoi, a company with decades of experience building fighters, 8 years to conceptualize the T-50 (PAK FA) despite the fact that it shares many common parts, avionics, code, manufacturing processes, assembly line, maintenance tools and know-how with previous platforms.

Even though Turkey consults with Saab and a few other international partners in limited capacity, it still needs to mature many different technologies locally before a TFX prototype can be put together. And that's only the beginning. The actual challenge will be trying to push it for export and applying economies of scale.

To name a few...

-- Engine/powerplant, no national(ized) engine = no TFX
-- Supersonic aerodynamics, RCS and IR signature minimization, RAM materials, electronic waveguides, active radar cancellation and jamming
-- High load landing system and tires, fail-proof hydraulics, brushless high-G servos for control surfaces, retractable carrier hook (if to be used on TCG Anadolu)
-- Internal weapons bay, internal high-G hardpoints, volume maximization
-- Ejection seat system (this can also be bought off the shelf from Martin-Baker, etc.)
-- AESA radar, radar gimbal, radar cooling, cooled thermal detectors, radar warning receivers, basic built-in SIGINT capability , national IFF
-- On board oxygen generator, G-suit pressurizer, pilot vitals monitor
-- Sensor data fusion technologies, modern HUD/HMCS, cockpit pressurization/heating/cooling
-- Aerial refueling boom receptor, fuel pump, safety cutoff, engine fire monitoring and suppression system
-- New generation FCS, flight computer, solid state data storage and encryption, x-band sat com, qu/s/l band (radar) communications, networking and data fusion
...

In my Opinion it will make no Sense to use an Air Superity Fighter from a Amphibious Aussault Ship, for the support of Ground Forces F-35 B with VTOL Capabillities will be enough.

 

[mike2000 is back]

yes you are right.Turkey should buy old engin designs with fully IP

Who is going to sell you their engine tech IP? are you people dreaming? Not even old engine designs can be sold.
Even Russia doesn't sell that to China despite all the money the Chinese can offer and their complex ties against the "west".Reason the Chinese are still struggling to make their engines reliable enough to power all their fighters. Yet you think other countries will simply sell their engine tech IP rights to Turkey? lol
Good luck with that.
Truth be told, very very very few countries(barely 4 or 5 countries) can make a real reliable/proven turbofan engine. The deal we are offering Turkey is the best deal they can get or Turkey can get. It's take or leave. Only other alternative is for Turkey to make its own turbofan jet engine itself(we all know how many decades that will require, that's if they are even successful in the first place). We are a pragmatic power, Turkey has nothing to be worried about.

 

[Baybars Han]

Who is going to sell you their engine tech IP? are you people dreaming? Not even old engine designs can be sold.
Even Russia doesn't sell that to China despite all the money the Chinese can offer and their complex ties against the "west".Reason the Chinese are still struggling to make their engines reliable enough to power all their fighters. Yet you think other countries will simply sell their engine tech IP rights to Turkey? lol
Good luck with that.
Truth be told, very very very few countries(barely 4 or 5 countries) can make a real reliable/proven turbofan engine. The deal we are offering Turkey is the best deal they can get or Turkey can get. It's take or leave. Only other alternative is for Turkey to male its own turbofan jet itself(we all know how many decades that will require if they are successful in the first place). We are a pragmatic power, Turkey has nothing to be worried about.

We know nobody will sell it. Another option - Ukraine maybe. I dont know if they have turbofan but I know they have a lot of aircraft engine technologies from soviet times.

 

[Hindustani78]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tu...tems.aspx?pageID=238&nID=105877&NewsCatID=345


Turkish fleet will contain locally produced warplanes by 2030

Touching on future projects and planning for the defense industry, Demir said cybersecurity, satellite systems and space and electronic warfare were among Turkey’s projected priorities between 2020 and 2030. The main objective of the defense industry is to increase the weight of national production in the inventory of the Turkish army, the undersecretary said, stressing that the Turkish air force’s fleet would contain locally produced warplanes. “I can’t give numbers but I can say there will be fully Turkish-made warplanes in our fleets,” he said.

“This is a difficult process and we are proceeding phase by phase. We sure have dreams but we are not dreamers,” he said, adding that Turkey was in the process of working with countries and companies that have experience in the production of warplanes.

Demir said initial contact had been established with companies, but added: “It’s also important that not only companies but their countries should also be willing to engage in cooperation. This is about to be accomplished as well.”

 

[royalharris]

We know nobody will sell it. Another option - Ukraine maybe. I dont know if they have turbofan but I know they have a lot of aircraft engine technologies from soviet times.

Pakistan will help youthey are the only Muslim country who can make a 4th generation air fighter.they are far more advanced than you in this area, can provide big help

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Everything has a price and engine rights belong to individual companies, not governments. If Turkey approaches an engine manufacturer and offers good cash for an older design that no longer powers any of the production aircraft, there's no reason for any sane company to withhold that bar national security reasons. Provided Turkey doesn't threaten the selling company's country of origin in any shape or form, there's little obstacle to such a sale. Turkey has done this already with the T-129 attack helicopters (AgustaWestland I-129), Firtina howitzers (Samsung/Techwin K9 Thunder) and the Altay Tank (Hyundai/Rotem K2), all being cash-purchased designs.

Again, Turkey doesn't have to buy the rights to a cutting-edge engine. An engine from the early 2000s, 90s or even 80s will do just fine. It doesn't even have to be a production model, it can as well be one that's been prototyped and then abandoned due to the host country having gone with a competing engine. There's so many possibilities and options if you've got the cash for the purchase, which Turkey does.

Then there's always the black market and the China model. Buy it off the shelf or steal it, reverse-engineer it with some alterations in the nooks and crannies and then label it something else. It's very difficult to file DMCA complaints for top-secret military gear. China's done this with a great deal of products, both military and civilian. But since our topic here is jet engines, there's the recent example of WS-15 which is based on a Russian Yak turbofan which now powers the next-gen J-20.

The British offer may go ahead and be as "take or leave" as it wants. It certainly isn't Turkey's only choice.

 

[sehnaz]

Everything has a price and engine rights belong to individual companies, not governments. If Turkey approaches an engine manufacturer and offers good cash for an older design that no longer powers any of the production aircraft, there's no reason for any sane company to withhold that bar national security reasons. Provided Turkey doesn't threaten the selling company's country of origin in any shape or form, there's little obstacle to such a sale. Turkey has done this already with the T-129 attack helicopters (AgustaWestland I-129), Firtina howitzers (Samsung/Techwin K9 Thunder) and the Altay Tank (Hyundai/Rotem K2), all being cash-purchased designs.

Again, Turkey doesn't have to buy the rights to a cutting-edge engine. An engine from the early 2000s, 90s or even 80s will do just fine. It doesn't even have to be a production model, it can as well be one that's been prototyped and then abandoned due to the host country having gone with a competing engine. There's so many possibilities and options if you've got the cash for the purchase, which Turkey does.

Then there's always the black market and the China model. Buy it off the shelf or steal it, reverse-engineer it with some alterations in the nooks and crannies and then label it something else. It's very difficult to file DMCA complaints for top-secret military gear. China's done this with a great deal of products, both military and civilian. But since our topic here is jet engines, there's the recent example of WS-15 which is based on a Russian Yak turbofan which now powers the next-gen J-20.

The British offer may go ahead and be as "take or leave" as it wants. It certainly isn't Turkey's only choice.

Fantastic very good

 

[era_shield]

Everything has a price and engine rights belong to individual companies, not governments. If Turkey approaches an engine manufacturer and offers good cash for an older design that no longer powers any of the production aircraft, there's no reason for any sane company to withhold that bar national security reasons. Provided Turkey doesn't threaten the selling company's country of origin in any shape or form, there's little obstacle to such a sale. Turkey has done this already with the T-129 attack helicopters (AgustaWestland I-129), Firtina howitzers (Samsung/Techwin K9 Thunder) and the Altay Tank (Hyundai/Rotem K2), all being cash-purchased designs.

Again, Turkey doesn't have to buy the rights to a cutting-edge engine. An engine from the early 2000s, 90s or even 80s will do just fine. It doesn't even have to be a production model, it can as well be one that's been prototyped and then abandoned due to the host country having gone with a competing engine. There's so many possibilities and options if you've got the cash for the purchase, which Turkey does.

Then there's always the black market and the China model. Buy it off the shelf or steal it, reverse-engineer it with some alterations in the nooks and crannies and then label it something else. It's very difficult to file DMCA complaints for top-secret military gear. China's done this with a great deal of products, both military and civilian. But since our topic here is jet engines, there's the recent example of WS-15 which is based on a Russian Yak turbofan which now powers the next-gen J-20.

The British offer may go ahead and be as "take or leave" as it wants. It certainly isn't Turkey's only choice.

There are no such suitable engines. Outdated engines can't be put in a stealth airplane because that would have a big negative impact on stealth. The WS-15 is still not finished, by the way, which tells you how hard it is to make an engine for stealth airplanes - it's been in development for 20 years. It would be better to license produce an engine until we can design one ourselves, that way in wartime we can still continue to produce them ourselves. Export restrictions are not as important as having the needed performance.

 

[neosinan]

Everything has a price and engine rights belong to individual companies, not governments. If Turkey approaches an engine manufacturer and offers good cash for an older design that no longer powers any of the production aircraft, there's no reason for any sane company to withhold that bar national security reasons. Provided Turkey doesn't threaten the selling company's country of origin in any shape or form, there's little obstacle to such a sale. Turkey has done this already with the T-129 attack helicopters (AgustaWestland I-129), Firtina howitzers (Samsung/Techwin K9 Thunder) and the Altay Tank (Hyundai/Rotem K2), all being cash-purchased designs.

Again, Turkey doesn't have to buy the rights to a cutting-edge engine. An engine from the early 2000s, 90s or even 80s will do just fine. It doesn't even have to be a production model, it can as well be one that's been prototyped and then abandoned due to the host country having gone with a competing engine. There's so many possibilities and options if you've got the cash for the purchase, which Turkey does.

Then there's always the black market and the China model. Buy it off the shelf or steal it, reverse-engineer it with some alterations in the nooks and crannies and then label it something else. It's very difficult to file DMCA complaints for top-secret military gear. China's done this with a great deal of products, both military and civilian. But since our topic here is jet engines, there's the recent example of WS-15 which is based on a Russian Yak turbofan which now powers the next-gen J-20.

The British offer may go ahead and be as "take or leave" as it wants. It certainly isn't Turkey's only choice.

Please stop claiming this. It just is impossible to buy any meaningful engine and older design wouldn't do any good. In any case, Tei is already reverse engineered all the the engines used by TuAF. But We currently don't have material science and resources to design/produce engine. Designing turbofan/turbojet is such complex and expensive process in economic stand point We can't start it in the next 10 years. First We need more company in aviation industry and They have to use production methods we don't have.

I respect your views but This forum isn't about fantasies As long as you don't have something constructive to say, Don't say it. Many people come here with hope of reading something tangible.

 

[Bismarck]

"Everybody said, it's impossible. Than a man came around and said I will do it."

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Please stop claiming this. It just is impossible to buy any meaningful engine and older design wouldn't do any good. In any case, Tei is already reverse engineered all the the engines used by TuAF. But We currently don't have material science and resources to design/produce engine. Designing turbofan/turbojet is such complex and expensive process in economic stand point We can't start it in the next 10 years. First We need more company in aviation industry and They have to use production methods we don't have.

I respect your views but This forum isn't about fantasies As long as you don't have something constructive to say, Don't say it. Many people come here with hope of reading something tangible.

With all due respect, why don't you go ahead and put a sock in it? If you don't like what I have to say, simply move on and save us both a brawl.

Buying a ready design is ALWAYS an option and Turkey certainly is no stranger to the idea: T-129 ATAK, Firtina SPH, Altay MBT. a great number of APCs, all purchased and then successfully nationalized products. There's no reason as to why the same model cannot work for jet engines.

As for your claim about TEI having already reverse-engineered all the engines used by TuAF... LMAO! Okay, sunshine, whatever you say. But I think you might want to read up a bit on reverse engineering.

Engines have very little to do with a plane being stealth, Not nothing, but very little. While reading up on reverse engineering, also look up stealth. Nothing is ever fully stealth. In a nutshell, what you do is you reduce your airplane's radar, radio and infrared signatures. You get those under a certain level and your plane is referred to as "stealth". Simple as that. Engines are there to provide adequate propulsion, not much else. They're embedded in the airframe and have very little exposure to radar besides the air inlet and the exhaust. The main factors contributing to stealth are:

• Airframe design -- the thinner and sleeker, the lower the RCS
• Advanced RAM materials and painting
  
• Tuck in and hide the fan blades from radar
• Bleed air in and around the exhaust to help reduce IR sig, don't run afterburner unless absolutely necessary

Since Turkey has decided to go with a dual engine design, an older engine with less then the cutting edge thrust is perfectly adequate so long as the total propulsion gained is enough for meeting the performance and mission requirements. The question you ask yourself is: Do I get enough thrust from two of these engines to lift this airplane and perform its designed mission? If the answer is yes, then that's your engine. You're done. You're gold. You're a 'go' for production.

If we go with what you're suggesting and cooperate with the Brits, it won't be our engine. Sure, we'll produce some PARTS of the engine, but a lot of the critical parts, tools and technologies required in its production will remain British. We won't be able to produce it in as many quantity as we want, we won't be able to alter it and we certainly won't be able to sell/export it to third countries at will.

I assume you're someone who prefers playing checkers to chess. Our problem isn't getting a working engine into the TFX as quickly as possible. Our problem is solving Turkey's jet engine problem once and for all, never to need any foreign partner for this again Especially not those whose "alliiences" shift constantly and often against our national interests.

 

[era_shield]

Engines have very little to do with a plane being stealth, Not nothing, but very little.

Uh, no. Engines determine whether it can supercruise, and a stealth aircraft that can't supercruise has very limited stealth capability. Without supercruise, in most engagements its infrared signature would make it much too easily detectable. It wouldn't be completely useless but the only roles it could perform could be done by the F-35 anyway (which also can't supercruise).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan will help youthey are the only Muslim country who can make a 4th generation air fighter.they are far more advanced than you in this area, can provide big help

This is not correct. Turkey has a far superior military aviation industry in comparison to Pakistan. But Pakistan can help with scale and (minor) funding contribution.