Turkish airspace closed to Israel, Erdoan says

[TOPGUN]

This was awsome news i hope it stays closed for them forever & ever .

 

[Dr.Evil]

I do actually, though I definately didn't vote for him; and have no positive feelings for him (to be honest).



next you hindustanys will say that he asked the israilys to kill the civilians too.....

Sir - It's Hindustani not with a " Y "

 

[Dr.Evil]

Why does not tukey stop all the business and military dealings and also stop taking the delivery of the Drones.

This stopping the plane was a weak PR Stunt, nothing more.

 

[Jigs]

Why does not tukey stop all the business and military dealings and also stop taking the delivery of the Drones.

This stopping the plane was a weak PR Stunt, nothing more.

We payed for the drones and the deal was done before all this happened. Why doesn't Israel cancel the deal then ? They are finishing up building and delivering our Herons (which might i add are more advanced the any other Heron variant.) So kind of Israel to give us source codes for them too.

So much Irony i must admit.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The EU blew that Dogan Media Group thing up too. Another thing for us to improve they say. I swear by the time we get into the EU we will be more developed then every member nation already in it.

well, yes it was blown way out of control. But PM Erdogan should have also controlled the statement. He basically told Turks not to do business with, or purchase any ''goods'' from Dogan media. That isnt very professional, but I think it is by now a forgotten incident.

Dogan media was also politicising; using every opportunity to negatively cover elections (national and municipal) and other aspects of AK Parti.

Erdogan has done some good stuff but he isn't right for Turkey. Send him over to Pakistan maybe ?

Turkiye as a Republic is secular, the Constitution is secular. I admire PM Erdogan, he is a strong and smart leader. He would definately be much better suited in Pakistan, since there is a more religious bend in our country when compared to the Turks.

It is a mistake, however, to imply that he is going against Kemal Pasha's wishes for a progressive and moderate Turkiye. I think the ultra-secularists in Turkiye are also unfair to AK Parti, for their own agenda.

Me personally, I come from a school of thought whereby I don't believe religion has a role in state politics. There should be a Ministry of Religious Affairs in countries like ours and yours; but state figures should not even bring up religion in public.


As for EU; out of pride, the European power-houses like France and Germany will try to keep it afloat. I however, am of the opinion that nationalism is rising in Europe. I predict the eventual collapse of the European Union. Not the collapse of the nations, but the collapse of the ''system'' (economic regulations, currency, etc.)


my genuine message to Turkiye:

-Look towards the Orient.
-Maintain Kemal Pasha's vision and outlook, which I find quite similar in many ways to the vision of our Quaid-e-Azam
-Avoid confrontations, but in the event of incidents (diplomatic, military, etc.) --always hold firm on your ground.


until israil formally apologizes, offers compensation, and ends its illegal blockade on the ports of Gaza -- I dont think Turkiye should conduct business with israil


israil is the loser here, not Turkiye

I am sure he would do some heavy handed reforming there. I do believe CHP and MHP are working together.

their visions are totally different; though who knows, maybe you know something I dont. It is, after all, politics

(vote banks)

I think MHP knows it will be hard for them to be elected but if they could get more seats in parliament by helping CHP out it would benefit them. Since DTP is gone. Idk if CHP alone can remove AKP. We will see though how everything turns out in the elections.

If Kemal Dervis becomes party leader of CHP, I would support them whole-heartedly. He was the former finance minister, and did wonders to reverse the trend of hyper-inflation and other economic 'negativities' in Turkiye.

(he's also a close family friend of ours )

Deniz Baykal was not very good for the image of the party!!




(I apologize for the off-topic post)

 

[Dr.Evil]

We payed for the drones and the deal was done before all this happened. Why doesn't Israel cancel the deal then ? They are finishing up building and delivering our Herons (which might i add are more advanced the any other Heron variant.) So kind of Israel to give us source codes for them too.

So much Irony i must admit.

Israel does not have a problem doing business and relationship with Turkey.

Present govt/ ot Turkey has a problem with Isreal so logically they have to take that step aswell.

 

[gambit]

Can I quote you on that in the future?

Sure.

Especially when the topic of non-state actors is brought up

Non-state actors can also be state sponsored.

unarmed civilians WERE killed in a most inappropriate and appalling way

Unarmed? Since when is an unarmed person automatically a helpless and non-hostile person? You think the riot police in Canada is 'overreacting' against 'unarmed' and 'peaceful' anarchists who vandalized stores and violently disrupts daily lives?

I'm sorry to see that the U.S. never took action over Rachel Corrie,

She was foolish. She did not act on behalf of the US.

the victims of USS Liberty;

That is an internal matter between the US government and members of its armed forces. This is a red herring argument. You might want to check up on what that mean.

or any other American citizen killed by israil

Depends on how they were killed.

I'm sorry that your country priority-rushed laser guided bombs to israil instead of sending rescue boats for stranded U.S. citizens in Beirut, during the 2006 hostilities.

But of course we did evacuate US citizens...

CNN.com - U.S. family: Get us out of Lebanon - Jul 18, 2006

But were those Americans there to commit hostile acts against Lebanon?

I can see where you're coming from, bud.

No...You do not.

With all due respect, I am publicly questioning your patriotism.

Do not care.

 

[Solomon2]

Diplomatically, Turkiye has ''won''

In acceding to this, have you ever considered what you and your fellow Pakistanis have lost?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

In acceding to this, have you ever considered what you and your fellow Pakistanis have lost?

nothing, as far the topic of closure of Turkish airspace to israel (the topic of discussion) is concerned

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Non-state actors can also be state sponsored.

that wouldnt make them non-state actors.....unless you're talking about proxies

were the anti-soviet mujahideen non-state actors and/or state sponsored?

Unarmed? Since when is an unarmed person automatically a helpless and non-hostile person?

if they were brandishing BB guns or some weapon that looked like a gun, I would MAYBE understand a LITTLE bit more.

But the truth is, they raided the boat in int'l waters. They used gross disproportionate force. israailys are always known for brutal tactics against protestors and even stone-throwing kids, so the humanitarians were preparing for the worst, perhaps.

my question to you -- since when is it justified to raid an aid boat, and kill activists on board

You think the riot police in Canada is 'overreacting' against 'unarmed' and 'peaceful' anarchists who vandalized stores and violently disrupts daily lives?

you are comparing 2 completely different cases

incidentally, Canadian police arrested them. They didnt resort to bloodshed.

They confronted the problem. They didnt start crying and running away from people before turning to the real guns.

She was foolish. She did not act on behalf of the US.

she was foolish because she did her best to stop a bulldozer from DESTROYING the home of Palestinians.

as per the UN, those destructions of the homes are illegal; kind of like the rocket attacks (which mostly miss anyways)

That is an internal matter between the US government and members of its armed forces. This is a red herring argument. You might want to check up on what that mean.

I already know what it means. The USS Liberty example was merely to point out to you that turning a blind eye to the advertent and pre-planned mass murder of your own sailors is quite unpatriotic


a bit.......inhuman..i might add.

Depends on how they were killed.

But of course we did evacuate US citizens...

many of them had to flee to Cyprus, dude. Bush admin. was busy expediting shipments of laser/sat guided bombs and cluster munitions (which ended up killing mostly Lebanese civilians)

But were those Americans there to commit hostile acts against Lebanon?

No they were not

you're just helping me prove MY point.

(thanks)

Do not care.

take it easy, old man. Take it easy.

 

[Jigs]

Israel does not have a problem doing business and relationship with Turkey.

Present govt/ ot Turkey has a problem with Isreal so logically they have to take that step aswell.

Is that why they are boycotting Turkish products and telling their tourists to head to Bulgaria ? They must have no problem at all.

 

[gambit]

that wouldnt make them non-state actors.....unless you're talking about proxies

were the anti-soviet mujahideen non-state actors and/or state sponsored?

Proxies are usually states acting in front of other states for mutual interests. Allegiance is a two-way street. Non-state actors became that way through either a renunciation of allegiance or a denial of allegiance, the latter is an act done by the state. A person who is a 'non-state actor' can still be supported by a state without that state pledging allegiance to that person.

if they were brandishing BB guns or some weapon that looked like a gun, I would MAYBE understand a LITTLE bit more.

Matters little. Try threatening an armed police officer with a cricket bat and see for yourself if he cares either way.

But the truth is, they raided the boat in int'l waters.

Being in international waters does not automatically render one immune from boarding. Here is an example...

Crimes Under Flags of Convenience | YaleGlobal Online Magazine

In June, 2002, French commandos boarded the Cambodian-registered freighter Winner in international waters in the Atlantic amid an exchange of gunfire that injured one of the 12 crew members. The troops seized more than one tonne of Colombian cocaine worth well over $100 million in a cargo that was registered as scrap iron destined for Bilbao in Spain. Officials said that the raid was the result of 15-months of surveillance involving U.S., French, Spanish and Greek authorities.

Funny how this keeps surfacing despite being debunked over and over. Must be something wrong with the forum's software.

They used gross disproportionate force.

Irrelevant. Show me a police force that says an arrest MUST always be done mano-a-mano and with the same level of force.

israailys are always known for brutal tactics against protestors and even stone-throwing kids, so the humanitarians were preparing for the worst, perhaps.

The other five ships did not. May be they were that ignorant?

my question to you -- since when is it justified to raid an aid boat, and kill activists on board

When they assault.

you are comparing 2 completely different cases

incidentally, Canadian police arrested them. They didnt resort to bloodshed.

They confronted the problem. They didnt start crying and running away from people before turning to the real guns.

It is the same. The complaint is about bringing 'disproportionate force' to bear. The riot police is armed with the potentiality to inflict lethal force if necessary. When the Israeli troopers were personally assaulted at hand-to-hand combat distance, they were justified in escalating to lethal force from using paintball guns. Let me guess, you 'forgot' the paintball guns?

she was foolish because she did her best to stop a bulldozer from DESTROYING the home of Palestinians.

Yes, Rachel Corrie was foolish. The complaint here is that the US did nothing to 'avenge' her death. Whatever she did, it was on her behalf, not of the US nor did the US government sanctioned her act.

as per the UN, those destructions of the homes are illegal;

Then let the UN duke it out with Israel. In the meantime, if anyone stands in front of a bulldozer, he should be rightly called as foolish no matter how noble his intention may be.

kind of like the rocket attacks (which mostly miss anyways)

Right...That mean if your neighbor got drunk and shot off a few rounds that missed your children but nicked your house, you would be fine with it.

I already know what it means. The USS Liberty example was merely to point out to you that turning a blind eye to the advertent and pre-planned mass murder of your own sailors is quite unpatriotic

Good...Since you know what a 'red herring' argument is, we can leave the USS Liberty incident, along with Rachel Corrie, as red herring arguments.

many of them had to flee to Cyprus, dude. Bush admin. was busy expediting shipments of laser/sat guided bombs and cluster munitions (which ended up killing mostly Lebanese civilians)



No they were not

you're just helping me prove MY point.

(thanks)

Proved your point for you? Hardly. Those US citizens in Lebanon did not violated any Lebanese laws. They were there as tourists, some were on some sort of religious mission, some were associated with the US government, and so on. But they were not there as hostile agents against Lebanese authority. As for the US evacuation process, incompetent does not equate to malice. If the US government advised our citizens to stay out of XYZ regions and some people ignore the advice, how is that the government's fault?

Regarding the so-called 'peace activists' in this discussion, they knew there is a naval blockade for Gaza, they knew of the requested procedures to get anything past the blockade, they knew that others have acquiesced to those procedures and nothing happened to those other people, they knew the identity of the blockading authority, and finally they intended to violate the blockade. Imposing a blockade is an act of war. Running a blockade is therefore an equal act of war. Entering a country by obeying the host country's laws is not an act of war. So there is no comparison between the US citizens in Lebanon and the running of a naval blockade by anyone.

If anything that is 'proved', it is that you have failed to prove your case.