Turkish Airpower has a Fifth Generation Aircraft Problem

[MMM-E]

The US uses F-35 as political card against Turkiye

forget about the F-35 ... even F-35 is very bad option for TURAF ... without American permission flying computer F-35s even can not take off

and Turkiye planed to buy 100 F-35A for $10 billion + $35 billion operating cost for the lifespan of 100 F-35s
$45 billion ... what a great money for Countries like Turkiye


better to spend $45 billion to develop/produce the TF-X Fighter Jets and TRMOTOR Turbofan Engines
also to produce thousands of BORA,SOM,ATMACA Ballistic/Cruise Missiles and HISAR-O , SIPER Air Defense Missiles


in the region , only Israel has the 5th gen Fighter Jet

and if NO F-35s to Turkiye , then Turkiye should focus on long range Ballistic and Cruise Missiles for deterrence in the region against Greece,Egypt,Israel,Iran


No need American permission , no need Pilots , no need operating cost , no need maintenance .. but very big deterrence

-- 280/1.000 km KHAN/BORA Ballistic Missiles to hit every target in Greece,Egypt,Israel
-- 800 km GEZGIN land/naval based Cruise Missile to hit every target in Greece,Egypt,Israel
-- 400-500 km SOM air launched Cruise Missile with indigenous TRJ-3200 turbojet Engine
-- 250 km ATMACA land/naval based Cruise Missile with indigenous TRJ-3200 turbojet Engine

 

[azbaroj]

The US uses F-35 as political card against Turkiye

forget about the F-35 ... even F-35 is very bad option for TURAF ... without American permission flying computer F-35s even can not take off

and Turkiye planed to buy 100 F-35A for $10 billion + $35 billion operating cost for the lifespan of 100 F-35s
$45 billion ... what a great money for Countries like Turkiye


better to spend $45 billion to develop/produce the TF-X Fighter Jets and TRMOTOR Turbofan Engines
also to produce thousands of BORA,SOM,ATMACA Ballistic/Cruise Missiles and HISAR-O , SIPER Air Defense Missiles


in the region , only Israel has the 5th gen Fighter Jet

and if NO F-35s to Turkiye , then Turkiye should focus on long range Ballistic and Cruise Missiles for deterrence in the region against Greece,Egypt,Israel,Iran


No need American permission , no need Pilots , no need operating cost , no need maintenance .. but very big deterrence

-- 280/1.000 km KHAN/BORA Ballistic Missiles to hit every target in Greece,Egypt,Israel
-- 800 km GEZGIN land/naval based Cruise Missile to hit every target in Greece,Egypt,Israel
-- 400-500 km SOM air launched Cruise Missile with indigenous TRJ-3200 turbojet Engine
-- 250 km ATMACA land/naval based Cruise Missile with indigenous TRJ-3200 turbojet Engine

Right now Turkey badly need some 4.5+ generation jets to face SU 35 , Rafael or MIGs. F-16s are okey but not sufficient to deterrent or win decisively .
In modern warfare depends on missiles instead of Air power is a very very bad option.
You need underground missile programmes, otherwise if enemy can take control of air space they will take out missile sights . And also need very powerful ADs. Perhaps you can't defend your air space against Russia with S-400 .
Yes F35 is problematic and costly . But for the transition period of 2020 to 2040, you badly need some options. I hope by this time Turkey will be able to get the MMU with it's own indigenous Turbofan Engines.

 

[MMM-E]

Right now Turkey badly need some 4.5+ generation jets to face SU 35 , Rafael or MIGs. F-16s are okey but not sufficient to deterrent or win decisively .
In modern warfare depends on missiles instead of Air power is a very very bad option.
You need underground missile programmes, otherwise if enemy can take control of air space they will take out missile sights . And also need very powerful ADs. Perhaps you can't defend your air space against Russia with S-400

Russia can not attack NATO Country Turkiye


problem is functional puppet countries ( Greece-Egypt ) that serves others politically or militarily and is used remotely by The US,Israel,France,Germany against Turkiye

and Turkish Missiles will be enough to match with Greece+Egypt combined

-- 120km TRG-300 guided MLRS
-- 150km J600T Tactical Ballistic Missile
-- 280km KHAN Tactical Ballistic Missile
-- 220+km ATMACA land and naval based Cruise Missile
-- 110 km KGK guided Bomb
-- 100 km SDB guided Bomb
-- 280 km SOM air launched Cruise Missile

-- 1.000 km BORA Ballistic Missile
-- 800km GEZGIN land and naval based Cruise Missile
-- 500+ km SOM-ER air launched Cruise Missile
-- 1500-2.000 km KARGI anti radiation Drone




also Turkish Airforce 7 Boeing KC-135R Tankers , 4 Boeing E-7T AEWCs and 192 F-16 block50M/52 with link16 datalink + 120km AIM-120C7 networked air to air missiles easly to protect Turkish Airspace against F-16,MIG-29 and RAFALE Fighter Jets

also Turkish Navy 16 Frigates armed with 608 of SM-1MR and ESSM , 64 SEA SPARROW air defense missiles to intercept Fighter Jets over Turkish EEZ

and Turkiye will produce 7 TF-2000 Airwarfare Destroyers to intercept Fighter Jets over Turkish EEZ




about Air Defense Capability for Turkiye in near future ( in 5 years )

-- STINGER and SUNGUR MANPADS
-- KORKUT 35mm SPAAG with air burst ammunition to intercept Cruise Missiles
-- HISAR-O medium altitude Air Defense System to intercept Cruise Missiles and Fighter Jets
-- G-40 VL medium altitude Air Defense System ..( land based variant of 65km GOKDOGAN air to air missile )
-- SIPER high altitude Air Defense System to intercept Fighter Jets
-- S400 high altitude Air Defense System to intercept Fighter Jets and Ballistic Missiles
-- 20 and 60 kw high energy LASER Weapons
-- 192 F-16 block50M/52 with link16 datalink + 120km AIM-120C7 networked air to air missiles to protect Turkish Airspace against Fighter Jets
-- 4 Boeing E-7T AEWC with 600km MESA Radar
-- 4 Airborne stand off Jammer Aircrafts
-- 4 EIRS Early Warning AESA Radars with range of 600km
-- KORAL and REDET Radar Electronic Warfare Systems to jam hostile airborne Radars from 150-200km away
-- AKINCI and MIUS UCAVs armed with 65km GOKDOGAN air to air missiles and AESA Radar
-- Turkish Navy 16 Frigates armed with 608 of SM-1MR and ESSM and HISAR air defense missiles to intercept Fighter Jets and Cruise Missiles


and by 2030s GUMS anti Ballistic Missile Defense System also The TF-X air superiority Fighter Jets
and 7 TF-2000 class airwarfare Destroyers armed with HISAR and SIPER air defense missiles and 450km CAFRAD AESA Radar

 

[MMM-E]

Yes F35 is problematic and costly . But for the transition period of 2020 to 2040, you badly need some options. I hope by this time Turkey will be able to get the MMU with it's own indigenous Turbofan Engines.

Maybe Turkiye can buy 100-150 new F-16 block70 with AIM-120C7 air to air missile to protect balance of power in the region

F-16E/F block70/72

-- AN/APG-80 or AN/APG-83 AESA Radar
-- GE F110-GE-132A Engine
-- Electronic Warfare Suite
-- Improved Cockpit
-- Link-16 Data link for network centric warfare
-- service life extension to 12,000 hours ...... ( F-16 C/D 8.000 hours )
-- JHMCS

AN/APG-80 AESA Radar to detect RAFALE (1m2 ) from 110km away and MIG-29M2 (5m2 ) from 165km away

AN/APG-83 AESA Radar

120 km AIM-120C7 networked air to air Missile

 

[azbaroj]

Maybe Turkiye can buy 100-150 new F-16 block70 with AIM-120C7 air to air missile to protect balance of power in the region

F-16E/F block70/72

-- AN/APG-80 or AN/APG-83 AESA Radar
-- GE F110-GE-132A Engine
-- Electronic Warfare Suite
-- Improved Cockpit
-- Link-16 Data link for network centric warfare
-- service life extension to 12,000 hours ...... ( F-16 C/D 8.000 hours )
-- JHMCS

AN/APG-80 AESA Radar to detect RAFALE (1m2 ) from 110km away and MIG-29M2 (5m2 ) from 165km away

AN/APG-83 AESA Radar

120 km AIM-120C7 networked air to air Missile

I think it will be a wise option for transitional period but I am doubtful if US will provide it or not.

 

[Nasr]

I wouldn't be too surprised, if by some way a few years down the line Turkey ends up with either F-35s or claim to fame with an allegedly indigenous 5th Gen fighter. From what I can see, a game is being played and parties are playing their part in the "con." If you catch my drift!!

 

[Mamajama]

I wouldn't be too surprised, if by some way a few years down the line Turkey ends up with either F-35s or claim to fame with an allegedly indigenous 5th Gen fighter. From what I can see, a game is being played and parties are playing their part in the "con." If you catch my drift!!

Going to be as ingenious of a fighter as the Tejas from India.

 

[Figaro]

Going to be as ingenious of a fighter as the Tejas from India.

People here as usual significantly underestimate the difficulty of developing a 5th generation fighter. Look at Russia for example. They have immense aviation experience and not long ago were world leaders in developing fighter aircraft. Now their Su-57, which is already flawed in many numerous ways, has to undergo further prototype modifications scheduled for 2022. Judging by the progress, Russia would be lucky to produce the Su-57s in meaningful numbers by the end of this decade.

 

[IblinI]

People here as usual significantly underestimate the difficulty of developing a 5th generation fighter. Look at Russia for example. They have immense aviation experience and not long ago were world leaders in developing fighter aircraft. Now their Su-57, which is already flawed in many numerous ways, has to undergo further prototype modifications scheduled for 2022. Judging by the progress, Russia would be lucky to produce the Su-57s in meaningful numbers by the end of this decade.

at least take the schedule time table with a grain of salt.

 

[Figaro]

at least take the schedule time table with a grain of salt.

Anything with Russia and new weapons technology should be taken with a grain of salt

 

[IblinI]

Anything with Russia and new weapons technology should be taken with a grain of salt

Also not too sure about Turkish timetable.

 

[Figaro]

Also not too sure about Turkish timetable.

Turkish time table IMO is also far too aggressive. That is why I used Russia as an example in the first place. A renowned aviation leader has such great difficulty developing a 5th gen fighter while a country that has never successfully put a self-designed/engineered fighter jet into service is now talking about creating an indigenous 5th gen fighter within 10 years? I doubt it. Even the Japanese X-2, which put out a 5th gen demonstrator quite a long time ago, is going nowhere.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Turkish time table IMO is also far too aggressive. That is why I used Russia as an example in the first place. A renowned aviation leader has such great difficulty developing a 5th gen fighter while a country that has never successfully put a self-designed/engineered fighter jet into service is now talking about creating an indigenous 5th gen fighter within 10 years? I doubt it. Even the Japanese X-2, which put out a 5th gen demonstrator quite a long time ago, is going nowhere.

China developed J-8 then J-10 then J-20. It took decades of hard work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20

TF-X would take decades of hard work but it'll be worth it.

 

[MMM-E]

People here as usual significantly underestimate the difficulty of developing a 5th generation fighter.

Turkiye will take the TFX Fighter Jet which will be developed as blocks to a more advanced level in each block

Maybe 4,5+ gen Fighter Jet between 2020 -2030 ( for example TFX block-I ) with lower visibility , AESA Radar, Advanced Cockpit / Human Machine Interface , high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics , Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS) Infrared Search and Track (IRST), Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) , next generation advanced Electronic Warfare , integrated self-protection , the ability to supercruise and the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments

and between 2030-2040 5+ gen Fighter Jet TFX block II .... in finally the TFX will have superior characteristics for 5+ gen Fighter Jet such as

-- Stealth capability
-- Battlefield data fusion with the aircraft acting as a network node capable of receiving and relaying data to multiple other platforms
-- Controlling a swarm of drones acting in both a defensive and reconnaissance role for the controlling fighter jet
-- Artificial Intelligence as a decision aid to the pilot


even by 2029 , 4,5+ gen multi role-air superiority Fighter Jet TFX block-I will be enough to match with 4,5 gen Fighter Jets in the region

-- Greek Airforce F-16V
-- Egyptian Airforce RAFALE and SU-35



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and I remind everyone
Turkiye had zero knowledge about UCAVs but only in 10 years Turkiye was become Drone super power in the World

as of 2020 , Turkiye is one of top 4 Countries in UCAV technology with The US,Israel and China

 

[eagleeye]

this kind of huge project will have allways delays every one is aware of it. i am sure at the end we will sucseed because hundred of bae system egeneers are working together wit turkisch engeneers to design and to develop the tfx and more engeneers will come. except engine most subsystems like avionics Radars and weapons are either developed or are in development .