Turkey soon to decide who wins the multibillion dollar contract.

[Jigs]

ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News

U.S. and Western European companies are the usual winners of major Turkish defense contracts, but now for the first time, two non-NATO members seem to have a good chance to grab a strategic defense deal with Ankara.

For Turkey's multibillion-dollar plan for a long-range antimissile air defense program, U.S., European, Russian and Chinese rivals have submitted their best and final offers to Turkey's procurement agency before a March 1 deadline.

Competing are the U.S. companies Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, with their Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) systems, Russia's Rosoboronexport, marketing the S300, the China Precision Machinery Export-Import Corp., offering its HQ-9, and the Italian-French Eurosam, maker of the Aster 30.

Turkey is expected to select a winner late this year or in early 2011.

Turkish procurement officials said they are taking the Russian and Chinese options seriously.

Pros of rival systems

On the U.S. side, the latest major development came in September when the Pentagon's Defense Security and Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a planned foreign military sale to Turkey of 13 PAC-3 fire units, hundreds of Patriot-based missiles and related gear. Congress' permission for the potential sale came in late September.

Eurosam mainly relies on Italy's good defense industry relations with Turkey, analysts agree. In the past couple of years, Italian companies signed two major contracts with Ankara for attack helicopters and a military satellite and are competing with U.S. rivals for joint production with Turkish firms of hundreds of utility helicopters worth billions of dollars.

Eurosam's participation in the Turkish competition became possible only after the Turkish procurement office, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, or SSM, removed MBDA of France, one of Eurosam's top shareholders, from a blacklist in January.

Last year MBDA was not allowed to bid for Turkish weapon contracts because of a legal dispute over the cancellation of an earlier contract for anti-tank missiles.

But the issue was resolved amicably after MBDA paid more than 100 million euros to SSM in line with a verdict last summer in an international arbitration court.

The Russians earlier were hesitant about whether to bid but decided to go ahead and formally submit their offer when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan visited Moscow and held talks with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in mid-January, one business official familiar with the issue said. The Russian S300s are seen as an effective system.

The Chinese, meanwhile, are expected to offer the cheapest price and the highest degree of technology transfer, defense analysts said.



I want your opinions! What do you believe will be the best system for us ?

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News

U.S. and Western European companies are the usual winners of major Turkish defense contracts, but now for the first time, two non-NATO members seem to have a good chance to grab a strategic defense deal with Ankara.

For Turkey's multibillion-dollar plan for a long-range antimissile air defense program, U.S., European, Russian and Chinese rivals have submitted their best and final offers to Turkey's procurement agency before a March 1 deadline.

Competing are the U.S. companies Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, with their Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) systems, Russia's Rosoboronexport, marketing the S300, the China Precision Machinery Export-Import Corp., offering its HQ-9, and the Italian-French Eurosam, maker of the Aster 30.

Turkey is expected to select a winner late this year or in early 2011.

Turkish procurement officials said they are taking the Russian and Chinese options seriously.

Pros of rival systems

On the U.S. side, the latest major development came in September when the Pentagon's Defense Security and Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a planned foreign military sale to Turkey of 13 PAC-3 fire units, hundreds of Patriot-based missiles and related gear. Congress' permission for the potential sale came in late September.

Eurosam mainly relies on Italy's good defense industry relations with Turkey, analysts agree. In the past couple of years, Italian companies signed two major contracts with Ankara for attack helicopters and a military satellite and are competing with U.S. rivals for joint production with Turkish firms of hundreds of utility helicopters worth billions of dollars.

Eurosam's participation in the Turkish competition became possible only after the Turkish procurement office, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, or SSM, removed MBDA of France, one of Eurosam's top shareholders, from a blacklist in January.

Last year MBDA was not allowed to bid for Turkish weapon contracts because of a legal dispute over the cancellation of an earlier contract for anti-tank missiles.

But the issue was resolved amicably after MBDA paid more than 100 million euros to SSM in line with a verdict last summer in an international arbitration court.

The Russians earlier were hesitant about whether to bid but decided to go ahead and formally submit their offer when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan visited Moscow and held talks with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in mid-January, one business official familiar with the issue said. The Russian S300s are seen as an effective system.

The Chinese, meanwhile, are expected to offer the cheapest price and the highest degree of technology transfer, defense analysts said.



I want your opinions! What do you believe will be the best system for us ?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

My opinon is HQ-9A. But I dont know if China offered Turkey HQ-9A, it might be the FT-2000 which is a water down version of HQ-9A. However if it really is HQ-9A it will be at least as good as the S-300PMU2.

If Turkey buys HQ-9A then it will have many more future opertunities with China. Such as advanced destoryers like the 052D class for navy. J-20 for the air force, and even Military satalites such as the Beido2/COMPASS global navigation sytem.


destoryer
China 10 000-ton missile cruiser 052D trials

aircraft
Chengdu J-20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

COMPAS advanced GPS
Compass navigation system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[VelocuR]

Recommendation:

Effective system 'hot' pursuit !

 

[Obambam]

One thing for sure is that the Americans will be upset if Turkey hands it to China.

 

[AKINCI]

Best one is Chinese HQ-9 for Turkey because of tech transfer and price. Also Italians can offer a good deal, probably SSM will refuse Italians because of MBDA. A French company should not be involve this project, we should bethink outdated Eryx rockets and secondhand Mirages which have stolen Arab countries like new.
Although Russians did that on Algeria's Mig 29's, if Russia gives us S-300's tech, they can surpass China's offer . USA is last option anyway. :chin:

 

[Jigs]

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

My opinon is HQ-9A. But I dont know if China offered Turkey HQ-9A, it might be the FT-2000 which is a water down version of HQ-9A. However if it really is HQ-9A it will be at least as good as the S-300PMU2.

If Turkey buys HQ-9A then it will have many more future opertunities with China. Such as advanced destoryers like the 052D class for navy. J-20 for the air force, and even Military satalites such as the Beido2/COMPASS global navigation sytem.


destoryer
China 10 000-ton missile cruiser 052D trials

aircraft
Chengdu J-20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

COMPAS advanced GPS
Compass navigation system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most people point to us picking the European offering the Aster 30 SAMP/T. MBDA is offering us full technology transfers which is what we are looking for the most.

The Chinese destroyers look good but we have stopped buying our surface ships from other countries and build them ourselves.

We also launched our own fighter program, a upgrade program for our F-16s and ordered F-35s so we are set as far as fighter aircraft procurement is concerned.

However i welcome cooperation with china in other fields especially further cooperation in ballistic missile technology.

 

[Jigs]

Best one is Chinese HQ-9 for Turkey because of tech transfer and price. Also Italians can offer a good deal, probably SSM will refuse Italians because of MBDA. A French company should not be involve this project, we should bethink outdated Eryx rockets and secondhand Mirages which have stolen Arab countries like new.
Although Russians did that on Algeria's Mig 29's, if Russia gives us S-300's tech, they can surpass China's offer . USA is last option anyway. :chin:

Chinese have not said anything about tech transfer of the HQ-9 if they are offering us their export version we might as well pick the Russian offering at that point. MBDA however has offered tech transfer. MBDA also is not a french company but more of a joint European establishment with shareholders in many countries mainly British and Italian. The whole blacklisting was more so because french recognized the Armenian issue. I hope we go with whatever gives us the most modern system with a good amount of technology transfer.

 

[Obambam]

HongQi (HQ) 9 for Turkey's $4 billion missile defense system.

Here is a brief background on the HQ-9 system:

HQ-9 is an improved Russian S-300 SAM system with radar guidance incorporated US based technologies (SJ-231), possibly Lockheed’s Patriot’s Track-via-Missile (TvM). The TvM active radar homing guidance allows the HQ-9 to have a limited anti-ballistic missile capability up to 150 km in addition to the traditional anti-aircraft role.

It's naval version, HQ-9A, is currently fielded in PLAN’s Type 052C destroyer and has been spotted in number of Chinese cities included Hong Kong and Shenzhen as a replacement for the older HQ-2 systems.

The HQ-9 version offered to Turkey is likely to be the HQ-9B, an improved version with dual-mode semi-active radar seeker in addition to IR imaging.

HQ-9's SJ231 radar

HQ-9 TELs on 8 x 8 TAS-5380 chassis with HT-233 engagement radar

HQ-9

While US companies Lockheed Martin and Raytheon have jointly offered a combination of PAC-3 and PAC-2 low-to-high-altitude surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) to be purchased through US foreign military sales (FMS) credits, the China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) has offered the HQ-9 (reported export designation FD-2000) air-defense system. Turkey is hoping Russia will offer its more advanced S-400 defense system, which many suspect of having been manufactured with much Chinese input.

However, Washington has been pressing Ankara to consider potential NATO interoperability problems that could occur should Turkey opt for a non-Western solution.

US officials are not keen on the idea of sharing their technology with potential adversaries. US Defense Secretary Robert Gates said that any purchase of missile systems by Turkey should be in coordination with NATO's defense systems. He said Turkey should discuss this issue with its NATO allies.

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

Most people point to us picking the European offering the Aster 30 SAMP/T. MBDA is offering us full technology transfers which is what we are looking for the most.

The Chinese destroyers look good but we have stopped buying our surface ships from other countries and build them ourselves.

We also launched our own fighter program, a upgrade program for our F-16s and ordered F-35s so we are set as far as fighter aircraft procurement is concerned.

However i welcome cooperation with china in other fields especially further cooperation in ballistic missile technology.

But are you sure Turkey can produce advanced destoryer that can match the AGEIS like the Chinese 052D??

Can Turkey make some thing like the J-20 which is a match for F-22 on its own?

My point is that buying Chinese weapon systems will open doors for Turkey for future advanced weapon development. Turkey's military complex is not as advanced and capable as China's and it will be impossible for Turkey to do so on its own. China is more accountable than USA and with far fewer strings attatched.

BTW Jig what is your prefference? HQ-9A, S-300 or PAC-3?

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

Chinese have not said anything about tech transfer of the HQ-9 if they are offering us their export version we might as well pick the Russian offering at that point. MBDA however has offered tech transfer. MBDA also is not a french company but more of a joint European establishment with shareholders in many countries mainly British and Italian. The whole blacklisting was more so because french recognized the Armenian issue. I hope we go with whatever gives us the most modern system with a good amount of technology transfer.

BTW, Jigs. I said that it might be FT-2000, but it could very well be the real HQ-9A since this deal is pretty big, over 4 billion dollars. China might also transfer much tech to Turkey since China values Turkey as a furture stratigetic partner.


Jigs do you have any recent infos regarding which system Turkey is gonna pick?


Here is a picture of 052D

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

Let me provide some details about HQ-9A's capabilities.

1. Range 200KM.
2. Speed March 5.
3. Can detect 8 targets over 300KM and engage 4 at range 200 KM.
4. HQ-9A is a subsatial upgrade over HQ-9.
5. Entered serverice in 2001 and began mass productiion in 2005.
6. Also a even more advanced version of HQ-9 named HQ-9B was tested in 2006, if so this means HQ-9A is no longer the state of the art and will be ready for export!!!

It is fully comparable with Russia's S-300PMU2.

 

[Jigs]

But are you sure Turkey can produce advanced destoryer that can match the AGEIS like 052D??

We have the capability (both in shipyards) and (Local defense companies) To build modern AWW Frigates/Destroyers. We have a program currently in the works to do so. The Milgem from the picture was our corvette project and as you can see it is on par with any similar modern platform out there.

Can Turkey make some thing like the J-20 which is a match for F-22 on its own?

My point is that buying Chinese weapon systems will open doors for Turkey for future advanced weapon development. Turkey's military complex is not as advanced and capable as China's and it will be impossible for Turkey to do so on its own. China is more accountable than USA and with far fewer strings attatched.

BTW Jig what is your prefference? HQ-9A, S-300 or PAC-3?

We already decided to go with the F-35 and Upgrade our F-16 fleet. We have a project recently in the works for our own fighter aircraft to work along side these two platforms. So any other air platform won't come into our air force.

Chinese systems however are not compatible with NATO. This is a concern as we wont be able to integrate systems we buy from you into the NATO command and control interface members enjoy. I have no problem with cooperation with china but there are not many fields left open where china can come in. We generally look towards European and U.S. firms in our procurement because of NATO.

My personal preference is the Aster 30 SAMP-T. I like the specs of the system and the offer of full technology transfer along with compatibility with NATO. The PAC-3 is also one i think will get a fair amount of consideration even though minimal tech transfer is involved its quite capable.

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

We have the capability (both in shipyards) and (Local defense companies) To build modern AWW Frigates/Destroyers. We have a program currently in the works to do so. The Milgem from the picture was our corvette project and as you can see it is on par with any similar modern platform out there.






We already decided to go with the F-35 and Upgrade our F-16 fleet. We have a project recently in the works for our own fighter aircraft to work along side these two platforms. So any other air platform won't come into our air force.

Chinese systems however are not compatible with NATO. This is a concern as we wont be able to integrate systems we buy from you into the NATO command and control interface members enjoy. I have no problem with cooperation with china but there are not many fields left open where china can come in. We generally look towards European and U.S. firms in our procurement because of NATO.

True but so does Russian systems.

BTW, do you have any infos regarding which system Turkey is gonna pick?

Hey, I am not down grading Turkey's capabilities. I am just a sales man. lol

Then again this is just internet chatting, noting series.

 

[Jigs]

BTW, Jigs. I said that it might be FT-2000, but it could very well be the real HQ-9A since this deal is pretty big, over 4 billion dollars. China might also transfer much tech to Turkey since China values Turkey as a furture stratigetic partner.


Jigs do you have any recent infos regarding which system Turkey is gonna pick?


Here is a picture of 052D

It would put weight behind the offer if they did. We should pick the tender winner in the next SSİK meeting. Currently we are still evaluating the submissions.

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

It would put weight behind the offer if they did. We should pick the tender winner in the next SSİK meeting. Currently we are still evaluating the submissions.

Thanks.

But what is your prefference?