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Turkey may take Ataturk out of parliamentary oath

Ethogenesis of Turkish people is max. 900 years old. But self awareness of Turkish people is 100 to 150 years old. As somebozo stated, this conflict Will lead into identity crisis. I know who I am. but there are triggerhappy, Low educated guys standing around the corner, who knows nothing at all.
 
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Turkey was in a state of civil war in the 70s between right (nationalist/conservative/"Islamist"/Sunnis) v left (leftist/Alevi).

So it has seen very bad days and come through.

What ended the mayhem of the 1970s was the 1980 Kenan Evran led coup that made the Turk-Islam synthesis the official ideology of the state.

Anyway we wish Turkey all the best and sure it will flourish.
 
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Pakistan having an identity crisis.... How bro?

In terms of turkey.... It is the inheritor of Islamic empire.... The highest seat of our civilisation. It remains the foremost of Muslim nations. I do not see anything that should change that identity. Ataturk was a great man and should be given his due. But turkey is bigger than ataturk. Turks and turkey may not wish it but it needs to be the beacon that the rest of the Muslim nation can rally around..... It is the burden of empire .... Ataturk kept the empire from disintegrating but turkeys destiny can not in my opinion be be just a middle size central Asian country.

the so called empire killed more muslims than all the conflicts combined..wake up from your delusions of ummah republic!

Your brotherhood sermon will hold no value if you can read a little bit into history. There is no such thing as Islamic empire. All empires are based on material need of land, power, resources and wealth.

Every invader will use their own moral standards to justify the invasion and others as deserving inferiors. Muslims are no exception!
 
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This is something that is best left to the Turks to decide. If this decision is unpopular than the next ruling government will overturn it. It really is as simple as that.
 
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Tsherring,

I am a pan Islamist, i see the golden thread of Islam through the history of the Muslim nation. For you there is no such thing as a unified muslim nation, fair enough, but I do not share your world view. My opinion is my own as is yours. I recognise the importance of Ataturk and his accomplishments. But I see turkey as a template that the rest of the Muslim world should follow.... Strong Islamic democracy..... Pan islamism from that point is just a step away...

In terms of Bose.... Whilst I am supportive of this philosophy in one or two areas I think it is a stretch to equate Bose to Ataturk.
Personality cult is something we are more familiar with than you know ..... BAL is seeking to create one around Mujib in direct parallel to the Ataturk template.... In these cases I also say let these fathers of nations exist in idolised abstract as a sprit of the nation and not be fodder for politicians/military elites...
 
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Kemalism is used by radical Islamists excuses to criticize country. AKP is killing the country
 
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Tsherring,

I am a pan Islamist, i see the golden thread of Islam through the history of the Muslim nation. For you there is no such thing as a unified muslim nation, fair enough, but I do not share your world view. My opinion is my own as is yours. I recognise the importance of Ataturk and his accomplishments. But I see turkey as a template that the rest of the Muslim world should follow.... Strong Islamic democracy..... Pan islamism from that point is just a step away...

In terms of Bose.... Whilst I am supportive of this philosophy in one or two areas I think it is a stretch to equate Bose to Ataturk.
Personality cult is something we are more familiar with than you know ..... BAL is seeking to create one around Mujib in direct parallel to the Ataturk template.... In these cases I also say let these fathers of nations exist in idolised abstract as a sprit of the nation and not be fodder for politicians/military elites...

if Pan-Islamism worked then nothing can be farther from truth at 1400 years of Islam has not turned Muslims into global might of power and science. It did lead to fracturization of society and replacement of scientific principles with looney tunes.
 
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the so called empire killed more muslims than all the conflicts combined..wake up from your delusions of ummah republic!

Your brotherhood sermon will hold no value if you can read a little bit into history. There is no such thing as Islamic empire. All empires are based on material need of land, power, resources and wealth.

Every invader will use their own moral standards to justify the invasion and others as deserving inferiors. Muslims are no exception!

I do not share your perspective but understand and respect your points.

But please clarify what you meant by Pak identity crisis..... Where and how is that manifesting?
 
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if Pan-Islamism worked then nothing can be farther from truth at 1400 years of Islam has not turned Muslims into global might of power and science. It did lead to fracturization of society and replacement of scientific principles with looney tunes.

Pan islamism did create a civilisation and did make Muslims masters of their destiny. If 1400 years has been a series of only failures, Islam and Muslims would not have survived to this day....

As with all things civilisation forms, grows and declines and rises anew, do not lose hope...
 
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Tsherring,

I am a pan Islamist, i see the golden thread of Islam through the history of the Muslim nation. For you there is no such thing as a unified muslim nation, fair enough, but I do not share your world view. My opinion is my own as is yours. I recognise the importance of Ataturk and his accomplishments. But I see turkey as a template that the rest of the Muslim world should follow.... Strong Islamic democracy..... Pan islamism from that point is just a step away...

In terms of Bose.... Whilst I am supportive of this philosophy in one or two areas I think it is a stretch to equate Bose to Ataturk.
Personality cult is something we are more familiar with than you know ..... BAL is seeking to create one around Mujib in direct parallel to the Ataturk template.... In these cases I also say let these fathers of nations exist in idolised abstract as a sprit of the nation and not be fodder for politicians/military elites...

The secularization of Turkey was incremental and did not start with with Ataturk despite the misconceptions of some ignoramuses.

Many say it started with the Tanzimat reforms, others said it was even before that.

The late Ottoman state had a parliament with many Christian members and even a century or so before Ataturk the Ottoman had ceased being a theocratic state as per the exponents of traditional (note I say "traditional" and not true) Islamic law such as Hizbut_Tahrir and others would say.

There was opera in mid-19th century Istanbul, a parliament, a constitution. Ottoman Turkey was not like Saudi Arabia prior to Ataturk.

Ataturk did two things amongst others.

1. He introduced the post-Ottoman revolution to the masses and abolished the Ottoman oligarchy who did not care for ordinary Turks, as well as introducing greater industrialization. From a sociological viewpoint, Ataturk opened up Turkish society and abolished the Ottoman feudal structure.

2. He however went too far with his secularism (Inonu in some ways was worse) e.g. killing people for wearing the wrong type of hat, banning Kurdishness, killing clergymen, banning Hajj, forcing decadent western culture amongst the urban elite etc

This is the difference between him and the previous Ottoman reformers who though they made reforms did not do it in such a brutal, unnatural way thus traumatizing Turkish society for decades, they did it in a more gradual way respectful of traditional values. If Ataturk had heeded the ideas of Kazim Karabekir and others and been respectful of Islam (Ataturk didn't hate Islam itself but more "irtica" (backwardness) e.g. he was quite interested in the progressive and science-friendly ideas of Said Nursi) he would be to Turkey now what Washington is to the US, a truly universally respected hero.

The truth is contrary to what many Kemalists think, many Turks range from lukewarm respect coupled with disapproval of some of his acts to utter hatred.

Anyway he was a historical figure and should - as you right said - be seen in a historical light and not be utilized for advancing petty political agendas.
 
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if Pan-Islamism worked then nothing can be farther from truth at 1400 years of Islam has not turned Muslims into global might of power and science. It did lead to fracturization of society and replacement of scientific principles with looney tunes.

The Ottomans for a long time were the leaders on a global stage. Sure, their empire fell but every empire in history has fragmented over time. This is not a specific epidemic that befell the Muslims.
 
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The secularization of Turkey was incremental and did not start with with Ataturk despite the misconceptions of some ignoramuses.

Many say it started with the Tanzimat reforms, others said it was even before that.

The late Ottoman state had a parliament with many Christian members and even a century or so before Ataturk the Ottoman had ceased being a theocratic state as per the exponents of traditional (note I say "traditional" and not true) Islamic law such as Hizbut_Tahrir and others would say.

There was opera in mid-19th century Istanbul, a parliament, a constitution. Ottoman Turkey was not like Saudi Arabia prior to Ataturk.

Ataturk did two things amongst others.

1. He introduced the post-Ottoman revolution to the masses and abolished the Ottoman oligarchy who did not care for ordinary Turks, as well as introducing greater industrialization. From a sociological viewpoint, Ataturk opened up Turkish society and abolished the Ottoman feudal structure.

2. He however went too far with his secularism (Inonu in some ways was worse) e.g. killing people for wearing the wrong type of hat, banning Kurdishness, killing clergymen, banning Hajj, forcing decadent western culture amongst the urban elite etc

This is the difference between him and the previous Ottoman reformers who though they made reforms did not do it in such a brutal, unnatural way thus traumatizing Turkish society for decades, they did it in a more gradual way respectful of traditional values. If Ataturk had heeded the ideas of Kazim Karabekir and others and been respectful of Islam (Ataturk didn't hate Islam itself but more "irtica" (backwardness) e.g. he was quite interested in the progressive and science-friendly ideas of Said Nursi) he would be to Turkey now what Washington is to the US, a truly universally respected hero.

The truth is contrary to what many Kemalists think, many Turks range from lukewarm respect coupled with disapproval of some of his acts to utter hatred.

Anyway he was a historical figure and should - as you right said - be seen in a historical light and not be utilized for advancing petty political agendas.

I could not have set it any better myself. The Pan Turkism was not something Ataturk invented overnight. The seeds to the post Ottoman era Turkish state was already in place. The Young Turks were the de facto rulers of the Ottoman empire from year 1908 and this is common history. They were the rulers when the Ottomans charged into World War 1 with no direction. Ataturk had little choice but to do what he did in order to save the breakup of Anatolia. Maybe his policies were a little harsh, but he did it in the best interest of his people and that is all one can ask from a ruler.
 
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Said Nursi was Said Kürdi back then. There were No relations between regime and his jamaat. LOL at science friendly Said Nursi. :D. That guy has even called tasawwuf is unnecessary.
 
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A biopic of Muslim scholar Said Nursi, who lived during the early years of the republic, that starts showing in theaters today has caused much controversy, particularly due to a scene that shows Nursi and Turkey’s founder, Atatürk, arguing. The son of the parliamentary deputy who arranged the meeting between Nursi and Atatürk says they never quarreled...

Nursi also advised Atatürk not to import European morals and civilization to Turkey but to only take the industry and technology of Europe. “That would be real success for you. We should also work hard and elevate our country like that. But we should never bring their civilization here. They were the ones who learned civilization from us in the first place, anyway,” he said. Ensari also says the conversation took place in a very positive atmosphere, and Atatürk in addition offered Said Nursi a political position, saying, “Come. We will give you any office you like, come help us.” Bu Nursi replied that he was not interested in office but that he was always with Atatürk as long as he continued on his path.

Bediüzzaman Said Nursi and Atatürk never argued, says Ensari

Other sources say that Ataturk was impressed with Said Nursi, but Nursi himself disliked Ataturk's extreme anti-religious ways.

I am sure the above account by the son of the MP who arranged the Nursi & Ataturk meeting might (might not be) sanitized.
 
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