Turkey & Iran and Iran and Arabs (The Political Differences)

[FriendOfPakistan]

Azerbaijani people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genetics
Some new genetic studies suggest that recent erosion of human population structure might not be as important as previously thought, and overall genetic structure of human populations may not change with the immigration events but in the Azerbaijani case; some Azerbaijanis of Azerbaijan republic genetically resemble other Caucasian people like Kurds and Armenians[96] and people in the Azerbaijan region of Iran to other Iranians.[97]

According to a study of Eurasia's population by the American Society of Human Genetics, the different Iranian populations show a striking degree of homogeneity and nonsignificant FST values among themselves.[98] It seems that the people are largely Iranian settlers both before and after Islam.

2010 genetic study of Andonian et al shows Turkification of this region was predominantly by the process of elite dominance, i.e. by the limited number of invaders who left only weak patrilineal genetic trace in modern populations of the region and not mass migration.[99]

Studies conducted at Cambridge and Stanford Universities
A recent study of the genetic landscape of Iran was completed by a team of Cambridge geneticists led by Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab (an Iranian Azerbaijani).[100] Bonab remarked that his group had done extensive DNA testing on different language groups, including Indo-European and non Indo-European speakers, in Iran.[101] The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians in Iran.

As for Azerbaijan, lay this debate to rest .. they originate from Central Asia Iranians claiming they are Iranic, claims there is genetic proof of this yet have shown none of it

 

[A1Kaid]

First learn to interpret the information, so if you don't know how to interpret the information it's you who should shut up. It may be at one point before Turkic settlement of the modern day region of AZ was Iranic but that has change due to large influx of Turkic people from Central Asia under the Seljuk Turk empire.

"Turkicization of the population can be dated from the region’s conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century and the continued influx of Turkic populations in subsequent centuries,"

This is from your own wiki source

Origin of the Azeris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As for the genetic evidence provide a direct link to the American Human Genetic Studies on Azeri origin. It's funny how it takes an American source to prove something you Iranians can't, though you need to provide a direct source and not a wiki leak as that isn't a credible source in itself.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

As for Azerbaijan, lay this debate to rest they are ethnically Turkic people and even speak Turkic their ancestral language, they originate from Central Asia and migrated westward as the Oghuz Turks did and settled nearby Anataloa in this case the Caucuses. Iranians claiming they are Iranic, claims there is genetic proof of this yet have shown none of it need to come to realization that most Azeris are Turkic. If you ask an Azerbaijani they will even tell you they are a Turkic.

So lay this debate to rest.

With all invasions for the last 5000 years, there is so much racial mixing that we can't be sure where our ancestors came from.. unless we submit a DNA ancestral kit (which is available at National Geographic website)....

Therefore, people are grouped together on the basis of language, not race. Majority of Pakistanis and Afghans don't consider Azeris as Iranic people, even though many Iranians are hell bent on proving that they are... Some Iranians go on to the extent of saying that Iranian Arabs are also Iranic

 

[A1Kaid]

^ True, I actually asked an Egyptian girl about this and even she says before Arab arrival from the Arabian peninsula Egytians were not Arabs they were simply known as Egyptians. It is only after Arab conquest of Egypt, 7th century, did Egypt become an Arab country after Arab conquest and integration. Hence, I said Egypt has been 'Arabnized'. So today it is proper to consider Egyptians as Arabs.

As for the Iranians claiming they know better than Azeribjanis themselves on their ethnic origin is a bit laughable, even Azeribaijanis say they are of Turkic origin and this makes sense because a large influx of Turkic people did settle down there during the Seljuk Turk empires rule in the 11th century.

Honestly, Azeribaijanis could easily be another province of Turkiye and we would not be having this argument.

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

The source is not Wikipedia, and the source is linked and referenced in the Wiki article with all details.

Besides there are two independent studies, both referenced in the Wiki article (References 99-101). Read my post again, I quoted from the second study done by a British team led by an Iranian Azari.

Besides genetic data is collected from Iranians, so regardless of whether Americans or British or Iranians analyzed the data, the results would be the same. Don't bring US-Iran politics into this when you run of logical arguments.

As for the genetic evidence provide a direct link to the American Human Genetic Studies on Azeri origin. you need to provide a direct source and not a wiki leak as that isn't a credible source in itself.

It's funny how it takes an American source to prove something you Iranians can't

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

As I said before I am only interested in historically verifiable data and scientific facts.

What you or I or others (Pakistanis, Iranians) like to believe is irrelevant.

Scientific studies of genome is not belief or propaganda or wishful thinking.

If the evidence came convincingly the other way, I would accept it too.

For example, Baluchis are classified as Iranic (linguistically) and their language is closest to Kurdish,but if genetics study prove that they are closely related to Indo-Pakistanis (as I suspect), rather than to Kurds or Persians, then everyone should accept it as a fact.

Majority of Pakistanis and Afghans don't consider Azeris as Iranic people, even though many Iranians are hell bent on proving that they are... Some Iranians go on to the extent of saying that Iranian Arabs are also Iranic

 

[jinxeD_girl]

As I said before I am only interested in historically verifiable data and scientific facts.

What you or I or others (Pakistanis, Iranians) like to believe is irrelevant.

Scientific studies of genome is not belief or propaganda or wishful thinking.

If the evidence came convincingly the other way, I would accept it too.

For example, Baluchis are classified as Iranic and their language is closest to Kurdish, because of language, but if genetics study prove that they are closely related to Indo-Pakistanis (as I suspect), rather than to Kurds or Persians, then everyone should accept it as a fact.

Are you Azeri ?

 

[jinxeD_girl]

For example, Baluchis are classified as Iranic (linguistically) and their language is closest to Kurdish,but if genetics study prove that they are closely related to Indo-Pakistanis (as I suspect), rather than to Kurds or Persians, then everyone should accept it as a fact.

can we have Sistan va Balochistan then? just kidding....

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

Try Kashmir first, it has more beautiful scenery

I visited Chabahar (and neighboring areas) recently, in Sistan Baluchistan province, and the people there dressed, looked, and culturally seemed more like Pakistanis (not to mention that their are mostly Sunnis). But I did not see other parts of Baluchistan.

can we have Sistan va Balochistan then? just kidding....

 

[A1Kaid]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1088727/pdf/PB011197.pdf

This is a study done it seems to suggest most Azeris as mixed as they are are mostly indigenous caucasian and are more genetically similar to Armenians than other neighbors. I haven't fully read it but page 9 does mention something interest.

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

The same Wiki article I linked mentions this when talking about the people of the Republic of Azerbaijan, and makes clear distinctions between Azarbaijanis (of Iran) and those of Caucasus, the two being different genetically. See below:

According to Encyclopædia Britannica about Azeris in the Republic of Azerbaijan:

“ The Azerbaijani are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern Persia.[92] ”

The Caucasian origin mostly applies to the Azeris of the Caucasus, most of whom are now inhabitants of the Republic of Azerbaijan. There is evidence that, despite repeated invasions and migrations, aboriginal Caucasians may have been culturally assimilated, first by Iranians and later by the Oghuz. Considerable information has been learned about the Caucasian Albanians including their language, history, early conversion to Christianity, and close ties to the Armenians. Many academics believe that the Udi language, still spoken in Azerbaijan, is a remnant of the Albanians' language.[93][94]

The studies quotes I posted are about Azarbaijanis (in Iran) - and I repeat the correct term Azarbaijani is only for those south of the Aras river (mostly in Iran) - not the inhabitants of so-called Republic of Azarbaijan, who were known as Caucasian Albanians (mostly Christians) before the Turkification.

The reason you are confused is that you mix Iran Azarbaijan with the northern republic of the same name. The Wiki article I quoted has separate sections on both and makes clear distinctions. The studies I posted are about Iran, not that republic. How many times do I have to repeat this ?

And the PDF file you have seems to be about the people of the Republic of Azarbaijan, not those of Iran.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1088727/pdf/PB011197.pdf

This is a study done it seems to suggest most Azeris as mixed as they are are mostly indigenous caucasian and are more genetically similar to Armenians than other neighbors. I haven't fully read it but page 9 does mention something interest.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Try Kashmir first, it has more beautiful scenery

I visited Chabahar (and neighboring areas) recently, in Sistan Baluchistan province, and the people there dressed, looked, and culturally seemed more like Pakistanis (not to mention that their are mostly Sunnis). But I did not see other parts of Baluchistan.

I wish you could explain this to a Balochi that they share cultural similarities with Pakistan.. Balochis are always hell bent on proving that they are different people and they hate both Iranians and Pakistanis with passion...

Ofcourse, I would prefer Kashmiris over Balochis... Majority of Kashmiris don't want to be with either India or Pakistan, but they still support Pakistan over India, visit the Kashmir pages on facebook, and majority of them have Shahid Afridi photos in their profile and support Pakistani cricket team.. And not to mention, Kashmiris are much much cuter than Balochis.. especially from the parts held by India...

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

It was just an impression, and I could be way off the mark, because I have never been to Pakistan. Just that to us Iranians, some of the Balochis (the ones in Chabahar) seem that way. It is not an expert opinion. Don't quote me on that

I wish you could explain this to a Balochi that they share cultural similarities with Pakistan.. Balochis are always hell bent on proving that they are different people and they hate both Iranians and Pakistanis with passion...

 

[jinxeD_girl]

It was just an impression, and I could be way off the mark, because I have never been to Pakistan. Just that to us Iranians, some of the Balochis (the ones in Chabahar) seem that way. It is not an expert opinion. Don't quote me on that

I knew you would change your opinion after my post... I cant speak about the Sistan va Balochistan, but Balochistan of Pakistan is very diverse, it is not just populated by Balochis, but also by Brahuis, Makranis (the African group), and the northern Balochistan like Chaman, Quetta etc is heavily populated by Pakhtoons.

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

jinxeD, where in the US do you live ? and are you really a girl ?