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Turbulence ahead with Indian jet deal

Shaurya

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By preferring the French Rafale jet rather than the British-built Typhoon, they rejected, according to the Prime Minister, a “superb aircraft with far better capabilities”.

How dare they, asked MPs, snub Britain, which had given them £1.2 billion in aid? One newspaper even blamed the decision on the Gandhi family.

The truth about Britain’s “failure” to land the £6.3 billion Indian military jet deal — and the thousands of jobs it will sustain - is different. The game is not yet over.

But if we do lose, it will have nothing to do with the Gandhis, or the aid — which, as we report today, the Indians simply do not care about either way. It will be because of our own mistakes.

Senior Indian figures and military aviation experts have told The Sunday Telegraph that British defence cuts played a key part in India’s decision to prefer France for the huge 126-warplane contract. But they said the deal could still be rescued for the UK.

“For David Cameron to say that Typhoon has far better capabilities is embarrassing, and I say that as a strong supporter of the aircraft,” said Jon Lake, defence editor at Arabian Aerospace magazine, and an expert in Asian procurement.

“It would have been true to say that it has better potential than the Rafale, but thanks to the cheeseparing of our Treasury, and the other Typhoon partner nations’ treasuries, that potential has not been realised yet.”

Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Delhi, was the country’s wish for a radar and set of weapons which already exist on Rafale — but which are not currently present on Typhoon.

The French jet can launch a wide suite of smart weapons including Scalp, an air-launched cruise missile, Exocet, an anti-ship missile, and AASM, a precision-guided bomb with extended “stand-off” capability allowing it to be dropped from further away, reducing the risk to the pilot from anti-aircraft fire.

It also has an advanced reconnaissance pod and the latest electronic scanned array radar. This combination of capabilities proved highly effective in the recent war over Libya.

Typhoon currently has none of these things. The RAF badly wants the aircraft to have Scalp's British equivalent Storm Shadow — along with the anti-tank Brimstone missile, a reconnaissance pod, and the radar.

These capabilities, apart from the radar, are currently available on the RAF’s Tornado jets and were heavily used by the British in Libya. But their arrival on Typhoon has been delayed by defence cuts.

“For the Indians it’s all about credibility,” said Mr Lake. “If they believe what the Typhoon consortium told them, then by 2018 Typhoon will do everything that Rafale does now. But they clearly don’t believe it, and I don’t blame them, given the programme’s history of delays and cost overruns.

“At the moment, Typhoon can drop a laser-guided bomb, and that’s it. The combination of Typhoon and Tornado was quite effective in Libya. But on its own, Typhoon was less versatile than the Rafale.”

Tim Ripley, of Jane’s Defence Weekly, said: “The RAF are desperate for further weapons on the Typhoon but it is something the Treasury have been trying to avoid doing. This is a crucial test of the Government’s export rhetoric. The Indians ask why they should buy this kit for their own aircraft if we won’t put it on ours.”

Typhoon is built by a four-nation consortium of Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. The Indian marketing campaign was led by the Germans, a decision which Mr Lake described as “clearly mad” given India’s historic ties with Britain.

The culture and structure of the Indian Air Force is still heavily influenced by its British origins, with identical ranks and near-identical Air Force blue uniforms.

“The Typhoons they sent to India [for evaluation] were German, flown by German aircrew, but the Germans have a completely different culture,” said Mr Lake.

“It was mindblowingly inept.”

The British Typhoon contractor BAE was later brought in to partner the bid in apparent acknowledgement of the mistake.

Despite these failures, both Indian and British defence sources say that the contract could still be rescued for Typhoon.

A spokesman for BAE said: “The assessment made last week was basically a view from the pricing committee. There’s an awful long way to go before there’s a signed contract. It is far from a done deal.”

Though Typhoon is currently less well armed than Rafale, it is probably the more capable aircraft.

Experts say it can deliver a higher kill-loss ratio in air-to-air combat than the French jet.

“If they take the Rafale, the Indians will have to continue to rely on their Sukhoi 30s [fighters] for air dominance,” said Mr Lake.

“That’s all right if you are fighting Pakistan. But if you are fighting China, who also have Su-30s, you are not going to win.”

Commercially, Rafale has a track record of “winning” at this stage of a competition, then being overhauled in the final stretch.

The aircraft was selected as preferred bidder for a 60-jet order by the United Arab Emirates, but was then dropped as “uncompetitive and unworkable in commercial terms” by the customer, though there were reports last week that it might be back in the running.

Typhoon is now again in contention for the UAE business. Rafale was preferred by the Swiss air force, but the Swiss government chose the rival Gripen fighter instead. A supposed order with Brazil has also failed so far to materialise.

The Rafale has been assessed by the Indians as cheaper than the Typhoon.

The prices offered by the two bidders are secret. But official figures for Britain’s spending on the Typhoon, compared with France’s spending on the Rafale, appear to suggest that the British jet is slightly cheaper, though the science is very imprecise and cost figures for the same aircraft can vary by up to 40% depending on what is included.

Mr Lake said: “I would suspect when the Indians probe hard into the French price they will find that it is not satisfactory and hasn’t included things.”

Yet even if the Typhoon does, in the end, come through, it will not be the British jobs bonanza that some reports have claimed.

Because the aircraft is a four-nation joint effort, Britain would only have a 37 per cent share of the deal. And perhaps the most important part of the bargain for the Indians is that they want more than half — and perhaps up to four-fifths — of the aircraft to be manufactured in India.

Even on the Indian-made jets, substaintial components would still be British - but we could end up with less than a fifth of the actual work.

In other words, Britain may end up with less than 10 per cent of the production work on the deal.

It is still a good bargain, though, according to Tim Ripley.

“The real value is not in the assembly of the planes,” he says. “It is being involved in their future support and development over the next 40 years, it is keeping the production line going, and it is being embedded with one of the world’s major economic players.

“It is the life-support system for the British military aerospace industry. That is why it is so important that we get this right.”

Turbulence ahead with Indian jet deal - Telegraph
 
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Lower the price and give more tech transfer if u wish to win the deal :)
 
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^^^ do business with people of such disgusting mentality?? No thanks, we are better off with rafia/raffudin :rofl:
 
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It's not over till the fat lady sings already the British defence minister is coming to India for more begging talks.


L1 says Rafale is the cheaper plane and we invite you for executive talks but if EF can lower the per unit price and throw in some more tech transfer it can come back in the race.
 
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by the way guys katwe=shaurya , it seems my name was offensive to some pakistanis :undecided:
 
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Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Delhi, was the country’s wish for a radar and set of weapons which already exist on Rafale — but which are not currently present on Typhoon.

The French jet can launch a wide suite of smart weapons including Scalp, an air-launched cruise missile, Exocet, an anti-ship missile, and AASM, a precision-guided bomb with extended “stand-off” capability allowing it to be dropped from further away, reducing the risk to the pilot from anti-aircraft fire.

It also has an advanced reconnaissance pod and the latest electronic scanned array radar. This combination of capabilities proved highly effective in the recent war over Libya.

Typhoon currently has none of these things. The RAF badly wants the aircraft to have Scalp's British equivalent Storm Shadow — along with the anti-tank Brimstone missile, a reconnaissance pod, and the radar.

These capabilities, apart from the radar, are currently available on the RAF’s Tornado jets and were heavily used by the British in Libya. But their arrival on Typhoon has been delayed by defence cuts.

“For the Indians it’s all about credibility,” said Mr Lake. “If they believe what the Typhoon consortium told them, then by 2018 Typhoon will do everything that Rafale does now. But they clearly don’t believe it, and I don’t blame them, given the programme’s history of delays and cost overruns.

“At the moment, Typhoon can drop a laser-guided bomb, and that’s it. The combination of Typhoon and Tornado was quite effective in Libya. But on its own, Typhoon was less versatile than the Rafale

Things that I am saying for a long time, but it's funny that EF lobbyist John Lake now admits these things too! :)
 
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Things that I am saying for a long time, but it's funny that EF lobbyist John Lake now admits these things too! :)

+1.

At the end of the day, Typhoon doesn't do well in A2G roles compared to Rafale but still the decision seems to have been made on costs.
 
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How Table Turns. English refused us "Tornando" saying its too Complex for your need, IAF can not manage such Technological advanced aircraft. We settled for Jaguar. However, now as they are in Depression all the Colonial Wealth Fading Away - We see "Back to the Colonies - this time for Begging rather than Burglary". All this now adds to our National Self respect.

Aye Maria. Proud to say INDIA, INDIA, INDIA
 
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How Table Turns. English refused us "Tornando" saying its too Complex for your need, IAF can not manage such Technological advanced aircraft. We settled for Jaguar. However, now as they are in Depression all the Colonial Wealth Fading Away - We see "Back to the Colonies - this time for Begging rather than Burglary". All this now adds to our National Self respect.

Aye Maria. Proud to say INDIA, INDIA, INDIA

They did came to beg even ii colonial times !!!
But since there was no stability in india they got a upper hand and drained away our wealth !!!
And they refused to give tornado?
i had never heard about this!!
maybe cos i was a kid during that times :)
 
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How Table Turns. English refused us "Tornando" saying its too Complex for your need, IAF can not manage such Technological advanced aircraft. We settled for Jaguar. However, now as they are in Depression all the Colonial Wealth Fading Away - We see "Back to the Colonies - this time for Begging rather than Burglary". All this now adds to our National Self respect.

Aye Maria. Proud to say INDIA, INDIA, INDIA

From what I heard, IAF was looking at SAAB Viggen during the 70s...but as it was the cold war and we were on the opposite camp US pressured Swedes not to supply Viggen to India and we had to settle for Jaguar.
From Wikipedia:

The United States blocked an export of Viggens to India in 1978 by not issuing an export license for the RM8/JT8D engine, forcing India to choose the SEPECAT Jaguar instead
 
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Lower the price and give more tech transfer if u wish to win the deal :)

Its not going out buying a pair of socks that you are looking for the most cheapest ones.. many times things which are expensive pay-back in quality, reliability and durability. I don't know what has made guys in control think that price is the ultimate controlling factor and not the performance. India wouldn't be buying such equipment on such massive scale in next 30 years and the investment it is making now should have been seen as investment on future. Also in every deal, you have primary objectives, then secondary and tertiary objectives. If Primary Objective was transfer of technology, India should have bought technology and later built its own solutions with all the skill and technology needed _ BUT _ here we are not looking for Transfer of Tech as the primary objective. India wanted MMRCA (Mega - Multi Role Combat Aircraft) and here performance of the aircraft seems compromised for the sake of secondary objectives.

Honestly speaking, decision of MMRCA must have been made within 6-12 months as this is enough time to try 6 platforms and then choose the one which is the best out of them. I wonder why is cost a factor.. why its not the performance? There is a in-built flaw in the approach which India has followed and I would certainly not want Pakistan to follow such path. Too many minds, too many thoughts, too many stakes and too many concerns doesn't give you best out of you and this is one example for people to learn from.
 
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Its not going out buying a pair of socks that you are looking for the most cheaper ones.. many times things which are expensive pay-back in quality, reliability and durability. I don't know what has made guys in control think that price is the ultimate controlling factor and not the performance. India wouldn't be buying such equipment on such massive scale in next 30 years and the investment it is making now must be seen as investment on future.

Honestly speaking, decision of MMRCA must have been made within 6 months as this is enough time to try 6 platforms and then choose the one which is the best out of them. I wonder why is cost a factor.. why its not the performance? There is a in-built flaw in the approach which India has followed and I would certainly not want Pakistan to follow this procedure ever. Too many minds, too many thoughts, too many stakes and too many concerns doesn't give you best out of you and this is one example for people to learn from.


Over 20 major UK defence companies are going to India this week im sure they will highlight the EF and it's merits as they still think this deal can be saved and it's not over till it is but that's the British spirit. EF is still a top notch fighter and let's remember both of them did well in the trials thats why they were picked ahead of the other contestants. It's still France's deal to lose but there is alot of hard negotiation that lies ahead in tech transfer etc, now what if EF lower's its per unit price and throws in some other carrots? this 'might' change the picture who knows but France can't let this splip through their fingers when it's so very close to a big win.

This tender has been the best defence deal we have carried out as it's been transparent and we got to test out all the fighter jets and evaluate them the way we wanted to in hot and cold climate of India.
 
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Its not going out buying a pair of socks that you are looking for the most cheapest ones.. many times things which are expensive pay-back in quality, reliability and durability. I don't know what has made guys in control think that price is the ultimate controlling factor and not the performance. India wouldn't be buying such equipment on such massive scale in next 30 years and the investment it is making now should have been seen as investment on future. Also in every deal, you have primary objectives, then secondary and tertiary objectives. If Primary Objective was transfer of technology, India should have bought technology and later built its own solutions with all the skill and technology needed _ BUT _ here we are not looking for Transfer of Tech as the primary objective. India wanted MMRCA (Mega - Multi Role Combat Aircraft) and that seems to be compromised for the sake of secondary objectives.

Honestly speaking, decision of MMRCA must have been made within 6-12 months as this is enough time to try 6 platforms and then choose the one which is the best out of them. I wonder why is cost a factor.. why its not the performance? There is a in-built flaw in the approach which India has followed and I would certainly not want Pakistan to follow such path. Too many minds, too many thoughts, too many stakes and too many concerns doesn't give you best out of you and this is one example for people to learn from.


If you like it or not cost is factor when deciding to buy anything including military technologies. The US armament industry is filled with examples of technology rejected as it was not found to be economical. As for the time even a normal person spends more than 6 months studying different models as well as the financing options available before buying a car (atleast in India) and you are here speaking about buying multibillion dollar jets in just 6 months.
 
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