TuAF Alternative to F-35?

[Bismarck]

What sources are you asking for from a guy whose whole life is to copy/paste the same exaggerated fairy tales and propaganda lies all day long on YouTube and the Forums.

Russians have not even started producing the system for themselves but our trolls are already dreaming about co-production etc.


ps If Turkey gets the F-35 this same guy will copy/paste things how powerful the jet is and how strong TuAF is with it. If Turkey can’t get it you will see him post how bad the F-35 is and how Turkey will get Su-57s and co-produce it too etc.

True or not. You can decide.
https://sputniknews.com/tags/product_S-500_Prometey/

 

[Glass]

So with european jets out, f35 out, chinese jets out there is now su-35, JF17 and

I recall a particular individual that worked at SSM, who did a AMA Reddit thread a couple years ago. He explained that he and a lot more of his colleagues actually thought that Turkey didnt need the F-35 planes, but rather that the F-18 Super Hornets was more capable and met the neccesary requirements of TuAF fairly easely. But ofcourse he explicitly said that it is his own opinion and that it doesnt reflect that of the SSM.

^this.

Now TuAF is entering the stage where it will retire the f4´s at times when conflicts with nations who are having an airforce are heating up (East med). I would say SU-35 should be the way to go but the fact that the americans are now focusing on rising China and an emboldened Russia makes things a lil bit interesting

all in all its funny how accurate my assessment was so much for "turkey will receive the f35 no matter what mentality from people almost 3 years back".

 

[LittleFish]

So with european jets out, f35 out, chinese jets out there is now su-35, JF17 and all in all its funny how accurate my assessment was so much for "turkey will receive the f35 no matter what mentality from people almost 3 years back".

Turkey has fleets of F-16s so anything inferior to F-16 may not be accepted by TuAF.

So if the Sultan can keep up with anti-US and pro-Russia policy and secure his position for next decade, US-made fighters seems no longer available.
For other options:
=====================================================================
Turkey's own TF-X: Not available in short
Development for a 5-gen fighter takes quite some years.
J-20 takes 8 years from first prototype unveiled(2011) to be on service (2018) in spite of having the support of whole country. That of T-50 is not faster either.
It will take 2~5 years for TF-X to have the first prototype (and you should pray that BAE or RR will be committed to you despite of possible future politic conflict), so may take 10+ years before it can be on service from now.

China: Currently we can offer nothing:
For TuAF:
----The FC-20E (export version of J-10): just approximately equal to F-16.
----J-11/J-16 (Chinese version of Su-27 familys): Not for export. And buyers must go for original Russian versions.
----J-20: The best, bot not for export
----FC-31: Still in prototype phase and conflict with you own TF-X, I don't think TuAF would like to invest billions of $ to it.
For Anadolu:
----J-15 (Chinese version of Su-33): Not for export, meanwhile J-15 is a heavy fighter and cannot take off since Anadolu is too small

Russia: Most probable.
For TuAF:
----Su30/Su-34/Su-35: Technically mature and on-the-shelf. Proved in real war.
----Su-57: The best one that available for TuAF in years if F-35 is still not available.
All Sukhoi fighters are heavy fighters, which means large combat radius, big payload and bigger radar (but Russian radars are not that good) which suits regional powers fine. In fact, Turkey needs heavy fighters like F-15 much more than F-16s, but US might not want a too powerful TuAF to influence the balance of ME.
For Anadolu:
----Su-33: Not for export and obsolete. J-15 is much newer.
----MiG-29k: Though way smaller than J-15/Su-33, but it may still not able to take off on Anadolu. Meanwhile India has share in MiG-29K program.
----Yak-141: An unfinished variant that capable of vertical take-off, though way too obsolete

EU and UK: Currently nothing
For TuAF:
JAS-39: not as capable as F-16
Typhoon or Rafael. No significant advantages against F-16.
For Anadolu:
Rafael-M. Not capable of short take-off and need ejectors.
======================================================================

So it seems the only option is Russian jets. Maybe buying Russian jets will result in further sanctions but so what?
Also, the biggest problem is for Anadolu. I can't find an alternative of F-35 for it.

 

[Glass]

@LittleFish I agree with you somewhat, but the aim right now is to replace the f4 2020

not the f16

So which plane do you think can replace the f4 ? With regards to Anadolu, I think it will host Seahawks,Atak´s and UAV´s, I dont think that turkey will receive the F35 and I also dont believe that Turkey will stand idle especially as things are heating up with states who have an airforce

 

[LKJ86]

So it seems the only option is Russian jets. Maybe buying Russian jets will result in further sanctions but so what?
Also, the biggest problem is for Anadolu. I can't find an alternative of F-35 for it.

IMO, Turkey doesn't need 5th-generation fighters urgently in near future, but just needs fund and orders from the Muslim world to develop Turkey's own aviation industry.

 

[LittleFish]

@LittleFish I agree with you somewhat, but the aim right now is to replace the f4 2020



not the f16



So which plane do you think can replace the f4 ? With regards to Anadolu, I think it will host Seahawks,Atak´s and UAV´s, I dont think that turkey will receive the F35 and I also dont believe that Turkey will stand idle especially as things are heating up with states who have an airforce

F-4 is advanced and heavy in its era, as a high-end 2-gen fighter, and its low-end peer is F-104 or F-5.
Now that F-4 is obsolete, it is natural that your current F-16 fleets will take the place of the position of F-4, and find alternative high-end heavy fighters, so in the end the task is still to find a replacement for F-16

Anadolu without F-35 will come back to it's original role---a helicopter carrier ... so Seahawk or ATAK or UAV whatever will be OK, but of course not so powerful as carrying F-35

IMO, Turkey doesn't need 5th-generation fighters urgently in near future, but just needs fund and orders from the Muslim world to develop Turkey's own aviation industry.

My opinion is opposite. Turkey does urgently need 5-gen fighters to keep TuAF dominant in ME and Balkan, otherwise its position will be challenged.
--Israel is operating F-35
--Greece will have F-35 and so will SA in years.
--Egypt has Su-30s (my fault, it is Algeria that own Su-30s) and even Armenia will have Su-30 soon.
--Bulgaria and Serbia will receive 3-gen fighters in years.

The root is that after Soviet crushed, Russia needs money badly and export advanced and heavy Flankers to anyone as long as they pay, meanwhile US is so mean that only export heavy F-15/F-18 to its buddies, which results in that weaker countries may have better fighters.

For the ongoing EastMedd crisis, Turkey needs an overwhelming airforce in hand, but it is clear Turkey's major or potential geo-political rivalries all have fighters that superior or equal to Turkish F-16s.

As for fund the aviation programs of Muslim world:
1. Indonesia KF-X with Korea: it is in the same level as TFX, but you can't expect Turkey to learning any technology from Korea since Korea is not experienced in making fighters (T-50 is just a made-up from advanced US accessories) while Turkey can make some components of F-35.
2. JF-17 with Pakistan: Turkey may fund but not show interest to it. JF-17 doesn't meet TuAF's requirement.

 

[LKJ86]

My opinion is opposite. Turkey does urgently need 5-gen fighters to keep TuAF dominant in ME and Balkan, otherwise its position will be challenged

Turkey can get F-35, but chooses S-400 finally. It means a lot.

 

[LittleFish]

Turkey can get F-35, but chooses S-400 finally. It means a lot.

That is the responsibility of the Sultan. S-400 is just defensive within 400km range while F-35 is attacking having a combat radius of 1500km, and even more if companied with Anadolu.

 

[Agha Sher]

My opinion is opposite. Turkey does urgently need 5-gen fighters to keep TuAF dominant in ME and Balkan, otherwise its position will be challenged.
--Israel is operating F-35
--Greece will have F-35 and so will SA in years.
--Egypt has Su-30s and even Armenia will have Su-30 soon.
--Bulgaria and Serbia will receive 3-gen fighters in years.

For the ongoing EastMedd crisis, Turkey needs an overwhelming airforce in hand, but it is clear Turkey's major or potential geo-political rivalries all have fighters that superior or equal to Turkish F-16s.

As for fund the aviation programs of Muslim world:
1. Indonesia KF-X with Korea: it is in the same level as TFX, but you can't expect Turkey to learning any technology from Korea since Korea is not experienced in making fighters (T-50 is just a made-up from advanced US accessories) while Turkey can make some components of F-35.

I do mostly agree with your overall point, but you are making several mistakes about the inventory and capabilities of Turkey's foes.

1) F-4 has been upgraded extensively and will do a decent job of serving as strike aircraft for the next 5-10 years.

2) Egypt does not have Su-30 (and Armenia cannot afford even a half squadron). Egypt's lead fighter will be Rafale, but without the most cutting-edge weaponry (so on par with Turkey's upgraded F-16s)

3) Greece cannot afford F-35, and when they can TF-X will be ready. SA will not get F-35 within the next couple of decades.

4) Bulgaria and Serbia's inventory medium-term is no challenge to TuAF.

5) KF-X and TF-X are by no means comparable. TF-X will be far superior and capable.

 

[LittleFish]

I do mostly agree with your overall point, but you are making several mistakes about the inventory and capabilities of Turkey's foes.

1) F-4 has been upgraded extensively and will do a decent job of serving as strike aircraft for the next 5-10 years.

2) Egypt does not have Su-30 (and Armenia cannot afford even a half squadron). Egypt's lead fighter will be Rafale, but without the most cutting-edge weaponry (so on par with Turkey's upgraded F-16s)

3) Greece cannot afford F-35, and when they can TF-X will be ready. SA will not get F-35 within the next couple of decades.

4) Bulgaria and Serbia's inventory medium-term is no challenge to TuAF.

5) KF-X and TF-X are by no means comparable. TF-X will be far superior and capable.

1) F-4 is 2-gen fighter-bomber no matter how upgraded, F-16 can do whatever F-4 does. F-4 cannot survive without the control of sky, and once the control is taken it will cost more in contrast with UAV like ANKA in bombing.

2) My fault, it is Algeria that have Su-30s. But Mirage and Rafael is also challenging.

3) Greece only need to buy 1~2 squadron of F-35 to overwhelm TuAF if TuAF don't have 5-gen fighters. SA will get F-35 once they declare to recognize and establish relationship with Israel, which is foreseeable in years.

4) If Turkey wants a dominant position in Bulkan, then it need a much more stronger AF

5) KF-X will have more advanced US-made accessories. US will embargo accessories for TF-X. What's more, TFX and KFX are all in designing phase and have no prototype yet, so we can't make judgement now

 

[Glass]

SU35 with its air superiority role could be the stop gap solution till tf-x is ready and f4 2020 function would probably transfered to akinci uav and f16, Hurjet is also about to fly soon

Now TuAF defintive needs to become larger i mean greece having population of 10 million and almost 200 fighter jets with turkey having 80 million and 300 fighter jets with 49 of them f4´s that needs to become bigger we arent operating under nato umbrella anymore. Should be atleast 500 jets thinks the armchair general in me

5) KF-X will have more advanced US-made accessories. US will embargo accessories for TF-X. What's more, TFX and KFX are all in designing phase and have no prototype yet, so we can't make judgement now

Nah, Americans are not part of TF-X and wont be part of TF-X, the project is to serious and brits have the know how to support Turkey with that jet no need for americans here

 

[StormBreaker]

@LittleFish I agree with you somewhat, but the aim right now is to replace the f4 2020

not the f16

So which plane do you think can replace the f4 ? With regards to Anadolu, I think it will host Seahawks,Atak´s and UAV´s, I dont think that turkey will receive the F35 and I also dont believe that Turkey will stand idle especially as things are heating up with states who have an airforce

SU-35 must be the option and the best replacement as well as serve to safeguard and keep TuAF’s offensive strategies wider open along with the help of S-400.

48 SU-35 will cost them around $3.36bn ($70 x 48). They will pack quite a punch keeping in balance low rcs, supercruise, heavy class, advanced systems and ability to install their own systems (China is also allowed).

In the same amount, they can get around 100 Block 3 Thunders ($3.3bn=$33m x 100)

Both are great options, one gives you a heavy punch, a long range system, the other gives you number with great quality.

(P.S - Prices of Block 3 and SU-35 are what i judged on the basis of some arguments and they don’t include the weapon package, support and all)

IMO, Turkey doesn't need 5th-generation fighters urgently in near future, but just needs fund and orders from the Muslim world to develop Turkey's own aviation industry.

Buddy, i was wondering, What is the core issue which causes differences between Turk and China other than uiyghur ? Turkey, Russia, China and Pak together can be quite a punch in international politics.

Turkey as well as China can co-develop SAC based fighter such as FC-31 (rumoured dead, taken over by J-35). Turkey has experience on F-35, at least some but very important while China has ready prototypes which can go to production in max 4 years.

This will in turn help Turkey to enhance and improvise their TF-X design and specs.

F-4 is advanced and heavy in its era, as a high-end 2-gen fighter, and its low-end peer is F-104 or F-5.
Now that F-4 is obsolete, it is natural that your current F-16 fleets will take the place of the position of F-4, and find alternative high-end heavy fighters, so in the end the task is still to find a replacement for F-16

Anadolu without F-35 will come back to it's original role---a helicopter carrier ... so Seahawk or ATAK or UAV whatever will be OK, but of course not so powerful as carrying F-35


My opinion is opposite. Turkey does urgently need 5-gen fighters to keep TuAF dominant in ME and Balkan, otherwise its position will be challenged.
--Israel is operating F-35
--Greece will have F-35 and so will SA in years.
--Egypt has Su-30s and even Armenia will have Su-30 soon.
--Bulgaria and Serbia will receive 3-gen fighters in years.

The root is that after Soviet crushed, Russia needs money badly and export advanced and heavy Flankers to anyone as long as they pay, meanwhile US is so mean that only export heavy F-15/F-18 to its buddies, which results in that weaker countries may have better fighters.

For the ongoing EastMedd crisis, Turkey needs an overwhelming airforce in hand, but it is clear Turkey's major or potential geo-political rivalries all have fighters that superior or equal to Turkish F-16s.

As for fund the aviation programs of Muslim world:
1. Indonesia KF-X with Korea: it is in the same level as TFX, but you can't expect Turkey to learning any technology from Korea since Korea is not experienced in making fighters (T-50 is just a made-up from advanced US accessories) while Turkey can make some components of F-35.
2. JF-17 with Pakistan: Turkey may fund but not show interest to it. JF-17 doesn't meet TuAF's requirement.

 

[Mithridates]

I do mostly agree with your overall point, but you are making several mistakes about the inventory and capabilities of Turkey's foes.

1) F-4 has been upgraded extensively and will do a decent job of serving as strike aircraft for the next 5-10 years.

2) Egypt does not have Su-30 (and Armenia cannot afford even a half squadron). Egypt's lead fighter will be Rafale, but without the most cutting-edge weaponry (so on par with Turkey's upgraded F-16s)

3) Greece cannot afford F-35, and when they can TF-X will be ready. SA will not get F-35 within the next couple of decades.

4) Bulgaria and Serbia's inventory medium-term is no challenge to TuAF.

5) KF-X and TF-X are by no means comparable. TF-X will be far superior and capable.

and you are not underestimating those rival countries right??

 

[Haris Ali2140]

SU-35 must be the option and the best replacement as well as serve to safeguard and keep TuAF’s offensive strategies wider open along with the help of S-400.

48 SU-35 will cost them around $3.36bn ($70 x 48). They will pack quite a punch keeping in balance low rcs, supercruise, heavy class, advanced systems and ability to install their own systems (China is also allowed).

In the same amount, they can get around 100 Block 3 Thunders ($3.3bn=$33m x 100)

Both are great options, one gives you a heavy punch, a long range system, the other gives you number with great quantity.

(P.S - Prices of Block 3 and SU-35 are what i judged on the basis of some arguments)

Buddy, i was wondering, What is the core issue which causes differences between Turk and China other than uiyghur ? Turkey, Russia, China and Pak together can be quite a punch in international politics.

Turkey as well as China can co-develop SAC based fighter such as FC-31 (rumoured dead, taken over by J-35). Turkey has experience on F-35, at least some but very important while China has ready prototypes which can go to production in max 4 years.

This will in turn help Turkey to enhance and improvise their TF-X design and specs.

F4 can carry almost 10000 kgs of armaments. They will need similar aircraft to replace it. Which is likely to be SU 35. There is no chance for JF-17.

 

[Agha Sher]

and you are not underestimating those rival countries right??

Tell me about your opinion.

My evaluation is based on short to medium-term macroeconomic and political factors.