TTP leaders confess taking funds from RAW

[muse]

R3alist

We have more than 5 pages on a thread to show exactly what Pakistanis think of the "Jew" and Israelis -- Some here objected to Islamist, then to Wahabi, then to salafi - the heck with these objections - and thank God for the likes of Truth seeker who will call a spade a spade, don't you think? After all, no one can accuse the likes of Truth Seeker to be moral minnows, whereas those who took more than 5 pages to comment on "Jew" and less than 5 comments on the execution of a fellow 19 year old Pakistani in jail, on trumped up charges, speaking of moral minnows.

 

[r3alist]

R3alist

We have more than 5 pages on a thread to show exactly what Pakistanis think of the "Jew" and Israelis -- Some here objected to Islamist, then to Wahabi, then to salafi - the heck with these objections - and thank God for the likes of Truth seeker who will call a spade a spade, don't you think? After all, no one can accuse the likes of Truth Seeker to be moral minnows, whereas those who took more than 5 pages to comment on "Jew" and less than 5 comments on the execution of a fellow 19 year old Pakistani in jail, on trumped up charges, speaking of moral minnows.

i am not saying there are no jew haters, there are.

but i note how you completely dodge what i actually say, in fact you seem to make a habit of it, truthseeker made an unfounded claim, i have every right to call him up on it.

my other point is, are you on a crusade of some sort, why are you so concerned about the views of some people sooo much that it coulds your reason and ability to comprehend statements, its a DEFENCE FORUM, there are bound to be some xenophobivc freaks out there.

 

[TruthSeeker]

truthseeker made an unfounded claim, i have every right to call him up on it.

R3alist,
Yes, it is true, I should not have implied that you have anti-Semitic motivations. I apologize for making this implied charge. I removed it from my post. If you want it removed because it is hurtful to you, then you will have to remove it also from your quote of my post.

Regards,
Truthseeker

 

[muse]

I am not saying there are no jew haters, there are.

Anti-Semites -- so what is your problem?? You behave in a particular way and do not want that behaviour to be labeled?? Islamistas are not terrorists, they are Muslims - and that makes the rest of us what?? Want to call Jews and Israelis all kinds of names and makes accusations at them, sure, feel free, bu then be ready for the world to call that behaviour what it is.

, its a DEFENCE FORUM, there are bound to be some xenophobic freaks out there

And of course we must tolerate them?? Yes??

In a earlier exchange I made the point to you that it is our "permissiveness" our tolerance of the intolerant that is the core of our malady - please reconsider.

 

[r3alist]

Anti-Semites -- so what is your problem?? You behave in a particular way and do not want that behaviour to be labeled?? Islamistas are not terrorists, they are Muslims - and that makes the rest of us what?? Want to call Jews and Israelis all kinds of names and makes accusations at them, sure, feel free, bu then be ready for the world to call that behaviour what it is

who and what are you even referring to?

it really sounds like you are arguing with yourself, calm down and talk rationally.

And of course we must tolerate them?? Yes??

In a earlier exchange I made the point to you that it is our "permissiveness" our tolerance of the intolerant that is the core of our malady - please reconsider.

yes there is an element of permisiveness, i am agreeing with you, but in honesty i am not here on some crusade, i am here to talk about pak related issues that interest me, its not my specific mandate to patronise muslims, or stick up for jews or whoever, i cannot say the same about yourself.


you been on an indian forum? why dont you tell them to stop abusing muslims and pakistani's?
am genuinely wondering if that concerns you?

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

What further incremental contribution to your chaos that the seeds long ago planted by the afghan taliban haven't already provoked can India really contribute? And at what cost to their internat'l reputation if caught?

Too little to gain and too much to lose for an India that'll see Afghanistan drop like ripe fruit by it's sheer goodwill within Afghanistan...if the taliban defeat is secured.

Finally, war Muse? Really? Why, were these accusations true about India, Afghanistan, or (Heaven forbid) America? If so, what forebearance the rest of us must have displayed to not make war upon you for the same?

Pakistan is a nuclear country. Please act like it. If the worm has, indeed, turned against you by the use of proxies, the GoP and P.A. more than any can understand why and display a similar forebearance, should they not?

I have seen some horriific images of the Israeli Bombardment and warcrimes upon Palestinians in GAZA . I do wonder that theres no one from the WEST to stop them(Israelis) or atleast challage their Intern'l reputation , Instead of stoping them the US sheilded the Israelis in the Security Council by thretning to VETO any resolution against the state of Israel .
If such a huge bloodbath can be savegly defended than how come GOI can Fear for their international reputation even being cought in supporting TTP and the destruction inside Pakistan . We have provided US the evidance in the past , but after a few drumbeating and cupl of allegations on Pakistan,ISI its buisness as usual ,Do_More ....., On the other hand the India is not only relieved from the allegation but its aqusitations upon Pakistan are strenthened by some of the people in US .

Pakistan is a Nuclear Power. And the only Muslim Nuclear Power . the Cost of bringing it down dosent even matters.

 

[PAFAce]

It is taken for fact by many here of India's involvement w/ the TTP...and afghans too. Further, that these operations eminate from Afghanistan.

Yet no proof that stands any reasonable test. None. Here lies the crux of the issue- a matter of "faith" by your populace but no Adlai Stevenson moment before the accumulated world audience.

The veritable "ah-hah" moment we all long to see.

There's a reason that the myth is far out in front of the facts, however. Internal consumption.

Muse and truthseeker are hitting the points hard here while skirting the central issue of WHY such an agenda is so commonly pursued by the GoP and the P.A.

Were there incontrovertible evidence of such, we'd long since known so. I've suggested this often before. I'll do so again- What has the GoI to gain? What further incremental contribution to your chaos that the seeds long ago planted by the afghan taliban haven't already provoked can India really contribute? And at what cost to their internat'l reputation if caught?

Too little to gain and too much to lose for an India that'll see Afghanistan drop like ripe fruit by it's sheer goodwill within Afghanistan...if the taliban defeat is secured.

Welcome, S-2, where've you been? Glad to see you.

Now, you are assuming here that the Afghan Taleban and the Pakisani Taleban a single entity. But they clearly aren't. They are two outlets of the same franchise. Support for one is not necessarily support for the other. You say India has nothing to gain, I say that India has too much to gain and little to lose if the game is played correctly. You can call it payback for what Pakistan has done; you will be wrong, but you still reserve the right to think so. To say that they will lose the goodwill of the Afghan government and the US/NATO is to assume that the Afghan government and the US/NATO alliance gives a damn about Pakistan's strategic position within the region. From the looks of it, they don't. Their primary concern right now is, "how do you exit Afghanistan gracefully?" Not whether a strategic balance remains in the region once they leave. India can rule it for all they care. So no, I disagree, India would not lose their "goodwill" by supporting terrorist elements inside Pakistan. For all we know, your country's decision-makers could have the attitude "better them than our boys".

Now, the only thing more "concrete" than confessions from Taleban leaders would be confessions from within the Indian government (unless you don't think they are Taleban leaders at all). It would be foolish to wait for something like that. You say not enough significant evidence has been provided, well, that is calling the Pak Army a lieing organization. The Pak Army will twist the truth, but not lie. Not when their war with the Taleban is going so well.

Finally, war Muse? Really? Why, were these accusations true about India, Afghanistan, or (Heaven forbid) America? If so, what forebearance the rest of us must have displayed to not make war upon you for the same?

Good point, if you truly believe we would help those who would conspire against the US, then why didn't you wage war against us? You would have had every right, and it's not that you were incapable. Your "forebearance" brought fruit when we decided our enemies were common (or similar), and maybe that justifies why you should not (or could not, justifiably) do the same to us. You, sir, did not have the confession from the criminals. Go to war on what basis?

Pakistan is a nuclear country. Please act like it. If the worm has, indeed, turned against you by the use of proxies, the GoP and P.A. more than any can understand why and display a similar forebearance, should they not?

And are we not showing that "forebearance"? India, after the Bombay attacks, violated our airspace twice in a day and brought their entire military to the borders. All of this without any evidence of ISI involvement. We have evidence, and confessions, but our forces remain pitched firmly against the terrorists. That is not forebearance, sir? On the other hand, consider if the US had acquired similar proof of an enemy's involvement in terrorism against its people. I'm sure they would have been the model for "forebearance" then. *cough* Iraq *cough*

That first-class, incontrovertible proof presented in a global forum is the key to this argument.

The rest of us are waiting for that proof, folks. Hell of a story to be written here but nobody seems able to do so.

I agree with you on this. Evidence must be brought for everyone to view, plainly and very clearly.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

If the worm has, indeed, turned against you by the use of proxies, the GoP and P.A. more than any can understand why and display a similar forebearance, should they not?

The worm was not created by Pakistan. Its the creation of US.



Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Carter Administration's architect of the policy supporting the mujahideen resistance to the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan ...... Operation Cyclone

 

[Awesome]

We also of confessions from terrorists for getting training from ISI and been trained in Pakistan. But if people are expecting that their confessions are creditable enough to blame on India then the confessions for ISI are also equally creditable.

ISI is not the subject of discussion here.

 

[Awesome]

India stands to gain from keeping Pakistan on the boil, not destroyed, not at peace.

As long as we are caught up with the terrorism problem we can't pursue Kashmir, raise our economy to challenge India, raise an army, raise our education, keep our tourism industry out, keep all technological advancements away.

You have to be living under a rock to even ask a question such as that, that what does India stand to gain.

In any court of law, a testimony, that too of a person who is hostile towards Pakistan has the most grounds. Furthermore, these arrested individuals have provided Indian weaponry... There is a money trail going into Afghanistan's Indian embassies.

Everything is there. Americans just find the need to defend Indians because that means, it all happened under their noses. So we all know where you are coming from as well and what your psychological needs are to defend the Indians.

Lets put it all out on the table, shall we.

Fascinating discussion.

It is taken for fact by many here of India's involvement w/ the TTP...and afghans too. Further, that these operations eminate from Afghanistan.

Yet no proof that stands any reasonable test. None. Here lies the crux of the issue- a matter of "faith" by your populace but no Adlai Stevenson moment before the accumulated world audience.

The veritable "ah-hah" moment we all long to see.

There's a reason that the myth is far out in front of the facts, however. Internal consumption.

Muse and truthseeker are hitting the points hard here while skirting the central issue of WHY such an agenda is so commonly pursued by the GoP and the P.A.

Were there incontrovertible evidence of such, we'd long since known so. I've suggested this often before. I'll do so again- What has the GoI to gain? What further incremental contribution to your chaos that the seeds long ago planted by the afghan taliban haven't already provoked can India really contribute? And at what cost to their internat'l reputation if caught?

Too little to gain and too much to lose for an India that'll see Afghanistan drop like ripe fruit by it's sheer goodwill within Afghanistan...if the taliban defeat is secured.

Finally, war Muse? Really? Why, were these accusations true about India, Afghanistan, or (Heaven forbid) America? If so, what forebearance the rest of us must have displayed to not make war upon you for the same?

Pakistan is a nuclear country. Please act like it. If the worm has, indeed, turned against you by the use of proxies, the GoP and P.A. more than any can understand why and display a similar forebearance, should they not?

That first-class, incontrovertible proof presented in a global forum is the key to this argument.

I have to laugh that some here might suggest that Holbrooke has "muzzled" the Pakistani gov't. Really!?

The rest of us are waiting for that proof, folks. Hell of a story to be written here but nobody seems able to do so.

Thanks.

 

[Developereo]

you are ignoring the US factor, they have made it clear time and time again that pakistan cannot say or do anything openly or otherwise against indians interests (refer to holbrooks statement on pak/india) - if there is one element of the equation that can keep pakistan quiet its the US.

That is correct. The US wants to keep a lid on the Pakistan/India tensions, so Pakistan can focus fully on the western front. This is a top concern for the US.

This is outright, total B.S. Is Pakistan a Nation or isn't it?

As stated above, Pakistan cannot afford to p*ss off the US too much. An actively hostile US can do much non-military damage to Pakistani interests.

If Pakistan is so afraid to tell the world its proof of RAW support for the TTP, then leak it to the Washington Post, like everybody here in the USA does! The US government can't keep CIA people from leaking secrets, tell the ISI to take some reporters to lunch in Washington!

If the evidence is leaked to the media, Pakistan will pay the price. The US will hold the Pakistani establishment responsible for the leak.

What has the GoI to gain?

Internal turmoil within Pakistan; distracting Pakistani troops from the Indian border; gathering data on ISI's methods and reach within Pakistan; retarding economic growth and foreign involvement (tourism, investment) by painting the entire country as unsafe and extremist...

What further incremental contribution to your chaos that the seeds long ago planted by the afghan taliban haven't already provoked can India really contribute?

Unfortunately for India, the Afghan Taliban have explicitly pledged not to target Pakistan. Hence the need for a Pakistan-specific terrorist organization -- the TTP.

And at what cost to their internat'l reputation if caught?

Uncle got their back.

Too little to gain and too much to lose for an India that'll see Afghanistan drop like ripe fruit by it's sheer goodwill within Afghanistan...if the taliban defeat is secured.

NATO hasn't garnered much goodwill despite the millions (billions?) spent in Afghanistan. India's contribution is tiny by comparison. India's big trump card in Afghanistan is their puppet Karzai. And Abdullah Abdullah. And the anti-Pakisan Tajik dominated government agencies.

what forebearance the rest of us must have displayed to not make war upon you for the same?

US gains nothing by invading Pakistan. US interests are served well enough by having a presence in Afghanistan -- perfectly located in relation to Iran, Pakistan, China and Russia.

I have to laugh that some here might suggest that Holbrooke has "muzzled" the Pakistani gov't. Really!?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/33180-americans-silencing-pakistani-critics.html

Although, to be honest, this one was probably done by the US embassy in Islamabad. The lack of support and silence from the Western champions of free speech is deafening.

We have more than 5 pages on a thread to show exactly what Pakistanis think of the "Jew" and Israelis

Let's not derail the thread, please. People who want can follow that discussion here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...4300-israelli-oppression-occupied-people.html

 

[PakShaheen79]

Fascinating discussion.

It is taken for fact by many here of India's involvement w/ the TTP...and afghans too. Further, that these operations eminate from Afghanistan.

Yet no proof that stands any reasonable test. None. Here lies the crux of the issue- a matter of "faith" by your populace but no Adlai Stevenson moment before the accumulated world audience.

The veritable "ah-hah" moment we all long to see.

There's a reason that the myth is far out in front of the facts, however. Internal consumption.

Muse and truthseeker are hitting the points hard here while skirting the central issue of WHY such an agenda is so commonly pursued by the GoP and the P.A.

Were there incontrovertible evidence of such, we'd long since known so. I've suggested this often before. I'll do so again- What has the GoI to gain? What further incremental contribution to your chaos that the seeds long ago planted by the afghan taliban haven't already provoked can India really contribute? And at what cost to their internat'l reputation if caught?

Too little to gain and too much to lose for an India that'll see Afghanistan drop like ripe fruit by it's sheer goodwill within Afghanistan...if the taliban defeat is secured.

Finally, war Muse? Really? Why, were these accusations true about India, Afghanistan, or (Heaven forbid) America? If so, what forebearance the rest of us must have displayed to not make war upon you for the same?

Pakistan is a nuclear country. Please act like it. If the worm has, indeed, turned against you by the use of proxies, the GoP and P.A. more than any can understand why and display a similar forebearance, should they not?

That first-class, incontrovertible proof presented in a global forum is the key to this argument.

I have to laugh that some here might suggest that Holbrooke has "muzzled" the Pakistani gov't. Really!?

The rest of us are waiting for that proof, folks. Hell of a story to be written here but nobody seems able to do so.

Thanks.

Do you really think evidence was not shared with someone then Why William Burns was telling Indians to close its consulates in Afghanistan??

Bharat Prakashan (Delhi) Ltd., which owns and runs the Indian Web news magazine Organiser.com, reported the following in its edition for the week ending on July 26, written by Mr. M. V. Kamath:


“Shri [William] Burns was even more brash. He asked India to close down the Indian Consulate in Jalalabad in Afghanistan because of Pakistani complaint that India is “fomenting trouble” through that Consulate in the North West Frontier Province and Baluchistan? Can India ask the US to tell Pakistan to shift its capital from Islamabad to Karachi because Islamabad is causing trouble in Jammu & Kashmir? Who is Shri Burns to advise us where we should set up our Consulates?”

Further can be read here as well...

US to Delhi: Shut down Indian ?Consulates? in Afghanistan? aftermath of RAW bombing of Peshawar hotel - World Politics - Zimbio

But surely Indian and US media did censored this item for obvious reasons.

 

[moha199]

Well, Who started it? Even if RAW is supplying arms to those, Its all because ISI is planning worse.... Simple... "If you cannot be them, Join them" Yes , We too have learnt our lessons, all these day's pakistan was promoting terrorism in our country, Its Pay Back Time, No debts.... Giving with interests now....

You know what? You guys are so funny, All this long Pakistani used to say that india is behind all this terror, But you guys used to say do you have proves? Now that we do have PROVES, You chang your stance and tell us that it's a pay back time. haha i can't believe some of you Again SOME of you not all. See we Pakistani have learnt and we say terrorism is a terrorism so guess what you guys become a terrorist body for us, but we won't cry! We will only teach a lesson

 

[Su 30mki]

You know what? You guys are so funny, All this long Pakistani used to say that india is behind all this terror, But you guys used to say do you have proves? Now that we do have PROVES, You chang your stance and tell us that it's a pay back time. haha i can't believe some of you Again SOME of you not all. See we Pakistani have learnt and we say terrorism is a terrorism so guess what you guys become a terrorist body for us, but we won't cry! We will only teach a lesson

Proof always comes with facts and truth , not only by saying " if i says , Kenya is world power and US is poorest country" then they will not become ,until you don't have hard facts.

1 )Pak Embassy Staffs sell fake Indian Currency and Caught by Nepal , this is hard fact

2) PAK Peoples caught in India in act of terrorism and done terrorism in India and given warm TV welcome in PAk this is hard fact

3) Many Terrorist operating from Pak only, this is hard fact.

4) If Pak Have proof then show to world and US and Nato , then they will ask india to stop them.

But you don't have proof only fancy stories, even PAK didn't showed any proof to anyone other then saying worlds.

 

[R.A.W.]

I have seen some horriific images of the Israeli Bombardment and warcrimes upon Palestinians in GAZA .

You also need to see if you fire from a house full of kids do you expect the army to clear the house first and then fire a missile. I am not justifying innocent killings but you should also take demographics of Gaza into picture.

Along with that there have been reports I am not sure about using kids as human shields.... Better if someone can enlighten on this..