Truth vs hype of Indian defence modernisation in the last 10 years

[narcon]

So what is the following?

https://twitter.com/x/status/478463921087451136

 

[thesolar65]

These are things that deliver and some surveillance and some tankers and other big things. But We are woefully short of actually what to deliver (here ammunition) for all the three services. As the top brass said we can only sustain for one week only in case of intense fight.

 

[godofwar]

I loved the indigenous J-17 Part the most.

Pakistan's indigenous JF-17 Thunder multirole Fighter Aircrafts made in collaboration with China

 

[The SC]

Add a bunch load of scams and corruption claims, policy paralysis, banning of multiple suppliers like IAI and others, sending IAF squadron numbers to their bare minimum, inordinate delays and non execution of many defense tenders, maintaining no accountability on performance and delivery of various defense PSU's. Most essential items havent even reached contract stage like the 197 heli deal, the refueller deal etc.

Though it wasn't all that bad but wasn't good either.

I seems like Indian defenses are overwhelmed!

 

[The SC]

India, in its quest to indegenization and self reliance, tries to micro and macro incorporate too many different technologies into its systems, this fact alone is quite overwhelming for its technicians and engineers. Plus, most new purchases have to be tested and most of the time improved, it takes a heavy toll on pure R&D.
I am avoiding the very heavy bureaucratic and political processes for decision making.

 

[Levina]

India not war ready, Army Chief tells Modi


Army chief General Bikram Singh did not hold back on the “critical hollowness” afflicting the Army after a decade of missed deadlines for procurement.


VISHAL THAPAR New Delhi | 14th Jun 2014

PM Narendra Modi waves from the cockpit of MIG 29 on the deck INS Vikramaditya, off the coast of Goa on Saturday. PTI

rime Minister Narendra Modi stepped into the War Room of the Military Operations Directorate of the Army Headquarters for the first time on Friday to review the security challenges on India's troubled frontiers. He hadn't reckoned with the inconvenient truth that India is not ready for war. Army chief General Bikram Singh did not hold back on the "critical hollowness" afflicting the Army after a decade of missed deadlines for procurement and wherewithal to face war. He made it clear that the basic weapon available to the infantry soldier — the INSAS Rifle — was obsolete. Firepower, critical in any war, is a worry because there's been no new addition of artillery guns since the scam-tainted Bofors deal of 1986. Army air defence is outdated as well. Army aviation, which is the lifeline for soldiers deployed on forbidding border posts up to 23,000 feet high, is saddled with the over 40-year-old Cheetah-Chetak helicopters. Night blindness is a critical factor not adequately addressed.

The efforts to deal with military obsolescence over the last decade appear clumsy and incompetent. No headway has been made in the over $5 billion artillery modernisation programme, despite multiple tenders and repeated trials. It's the same story with the $1 billion acquisition of 197 light helicopters for the Army. India's big air defence programme — the $5 billion Very Short Range Air Defence Systems (VSHORAD) is stuck in red tape. So is the Short-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (SRSAM) development programme. The $1.5 billion procurement of the basic assault rifle and carbine for the infantry hasn't made any significant progress. The anti-tank Javelin missile too appears a mirage, as also the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV).

The most startling of the challenges flagged by General Bikram Singh to be addressed on a priority basis was the depletion in the war wastage reserves for ammunition, which has fallen well below 50%. "Current levels will not last even a week of intense war," sources acknowledged. General Bikram Singh wants a Rs 19,250 cr funding to replenish ammunition stocks. "The roadmap entails making up 50% of the war wastage reserves of ammunition by the end of 2015 and 100% by 2019," sources disclosed.

"Of all the services, the progress in the modernisation programme of the Army has been the worst. The only significant assets we've added over the last decade are the T-90 tanks, the Smerch long-range artillery, Pinaka rocket systems and the Brahmos missiles. Very serious gaps are showing in our capability. These must be addressed by the new government on avery urgent basis. That's our urgent appeal to the political leadership," said a senior officer.

Sources said the War Room briefing for Modi lasted 2 hours and 45 minutes. The Army is hoping that its severe readiness deficit registered on the Prime Minister.

@sancho

 

[sancho]

HOWEVER, India hasn't done enough to address "threats.

That's another general statement, which true only for certain areas. AWACS for example was only dealt with quality, but sadly not quantity. I always criticised that not more Phalcon AWACS were procured earlier, but sadly we give our industry far too much freedom to dream, but they kept failing to deliver in time. However there are other areas that are doing better.

India has beefed up defence capabilities to all borders now, which earlier was too north western centric. Today we have diverted troops, set up new air bases, are creating specialised forces for regional warfare as well as improving infrastructure and that all over the country from the hights of the north down to A&N. Some of these improvements might be slow, while others are going more then well, which however has to do with the efficiency of the forces as well. IN and IAF for example has shown much better performance in these cases, while IA is far too slow. That's why air strips and naval bases in the north east, A&N and the south could be newly raised, while road and rail links are improving too slow.

That also can be seen at the added new arms that I have shown in the starting posts, which makes clear how IN and IAF could improve very well them in the last years, while IA couldn't.
Another area where this can be seen is the modernisation of older arms, where the upgrades of Mig 29s and Mirage 2000 are going well, which giving them a clear push of quality to many of their adversaries.While IA is
struggling to fix even basic upgrades.

At the naval side, there is even no adversary that can confront IN in our backyard, supported by shore based assets and with the clear push they got in quality and quantity in the last few years, they have a credible advantage. Here as well, only a single field is in a bad shape, the SSK's. Due to recent accidents and industrial problems in the production of the new Scorpenes, there will be a shortage in numbers of course, which however were neither foreseeable, nor could be countered by the P75I procurement.

Even when you look at the air transport capabilities, you can see a clear quality growth with the induction of the C130J and the C17, just as the ongoing modernisation of the AN 32s. All that it takes here, is a higher number of aircrafts that can carry larger loads in and around India, as well as speeding up the Avro replacement.

So generally speaking, Indian defence is doing pretty good in many fields, while there are undeniably also problematic once which needs to be dealt. However, that is the case in all forces in the world and not Indian specific.

India not war ready, Army Chief tells Modi

@sancho

Check my reply on the thread:

India not war ready, Army Chief tells Modi | Page 2

 

[illusion8]

MoD finalised their side in 2012, what we saw then was, Dassault and their partners trying to find suitable Indian industry partners to divert prodution parts, according to the RFP requirements. But they also tried to move around the requirements to get more workshare for their parnter Reliance. This alone has cost us at least 6 month of delays and the IAF was fully supporting HAL and MoD in their decision to strictly follow the RFP rules.
So what many blamed MoD for, was not in their hand at all and "that" delayed things close to the elections, which then made it impossible to take such a big decision anymore.
Now we have to see when a new read DM will come and what the BJP policy in the defence is, to see how soon the MMRCA can be decided. If they follow the original rules, they will insist on fulfilling the industrial parts too.

I spent the first half of today with HAL guys, I also visited the helicopter division, there's no denying that they blame the central government for ignoring local products in favor of foreign procurement for the sake of kickbacks. They even blame them for the inordinate red tapism when it comes to JV's and exports of helicopters.

 

[sancho]

I spent the first half of today with HAL guys, I also visited the helicopter division, there's no denying that they blame the central government for ignoring local products in favor of foreign procurement for the sake of kickbacks.

Interesting!

That's the usual claim from Indian's, isn't it? We tend to say that politicians always wants kickbacks and always prefer foreign stuff. But when do we say that?
Mainly in cases where we fail to offer our forces with an alternative for their requirements. The LUH competition for example was needed to replace parts of the Cheetak helicopters, until HAL's LUH is available, which still takes some years. The only alternative would had been, to order more Cheetaks to replace some older once as a stop gap solution, which A might not be what the forces want and B, would cut the orders of HAL's LUH as well, although providing them with additional manufacturing parts.

Another example is IN's LUH competition, in the same class of the naval Dhruv. Here IN (not MoD) rejected HAL's proposal, because it didn't met technical requirements. Something that I criticized earlier, since the naval Dhruv is a beauty and it must be possible to make a few changes to fulfill the requirements (procuring a foreign electric folding system maybe, fitting external fuel tanks to extend range...).
So when the industry can't deliver what the forces needs and when the forces then reject them and go for foreign alternatives, why are the politicians blamed?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

As said, that's the sad generalisation which is based on half truths only.

When it comes to something as important as national defense, being "half good" is not good enough.

For something like national defense, upon which the lives and security of 1+ billion are dependent on, the standards should be much higher.

Even for something that only affects one person, like a heart surgery, being "half good" at doing a heart surgery is simply not enough.

For something like national security, that's totally unacceptable. Half good is essentially failure.

 

[illusion8]

Interesting!

That's the usual claim from Indian's, isn't it? We tend to say that politicians always wants kickbacks and always prefer foreign stuff. But when do we say that?
Mainly in cases where we fail to offer our forces with an alternative for their requirements. The LUH competition for example was needed to replace parts of the Cheetak helicopters, until HAL's LUH is available, which still takes some years. The only alternative would had been, to order more Cheetaks to replace some older once as a stop gap solution, which A might not be what the forces want and B, would cut the orders of HAL's LUH as well, although providing them with additional manufacturing parts.

Another example is IN's LUH competition, in the same class of the naval Dhruv. Here IN (not MoD) rejected HAL's proposal, because it didn't met technical requirements. Something that I criticized earlier, since the naval Dhruv is a beauty and it must be possible to make a few changes to fulfill the requirements (procuring a foreign electric folding system maybe, fitting external fuel tanks to extend range...).
So when the industry can't deliver what the forces needs and when the forces then reject them and go for foreign alternatives, why are the politicians blamed?

I agree it's a general apathy all around.

I'll give you an example - a few years back an aviation PSU had floated a tender for procurement of PCs, severs, LAN, WAN etc which totalled around 2/3 crores worth. Me being one of the suppliers as well - the tendering and re-tendering had happened seven times at a duration of 6 months or so each time around. The whole purchase process dragged on for 4 years and each time fresh prices and different products had to be quoted and re-quoted and each time the tender value ballooned by a few lakhs. They finalized a couple of times and each time they ran out of funds because of the increase in the quoted prices and the requirement was pushed for the next financial year and the cycle continued. This was a crucial purchase that they dragged on for 4 years after which I lost interest.

Now imagine the same apathy for all their dealings.

 

[sancho]

When it comes to something as important as national defense, being "half good" is not good enough.

True, but who is talking about half good? I was talking about half the truth, which is something else. When you look at the modernisations that I showed, IAF and IN area clearly improving at a good pace and that is often not shown by generalisations. So when 2 of our 3 forces are doing good in terms of defence modernisations, that's more than half good right?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

True, but who is talking about half good? I was talking about half the truth, which is something else. When you look at the modernisations that I showed, IAF and IN area clearly improving at a good pace and that is often not shown by generalisations. So when 2 of our 3 forces are doing good in terms of defence modernisations, that's more than half good right?

Two out of three, is more than half good?

Even 90% is not good enough when it comes to national defense.

Imagine if you were asked to organize a small event, a chess tournament. It requires ten tables, but you only provide nine tables.

Isn't that a huge problem?

If that is such a big problem for such a small event, how can it be celebrated for something as important as national defence? Upon which 1+ billion people depend on for their lives and security?

Is the Indian Army Chief wrong to complain?

 

[sancho]

I agree it's a general apathy all around.

I'll give you an example - a few years back an aviation PSU had floated a tender for procurement of PCs, severs, LAN, WAN etc which totalled around 2/3 crores worth. Me being one of the suppliers as well - the tendering and re-tendering had happened seven times at a duration of 6 months or so each time around. The whole purchase process dragged on for 4 years and each time fresh prices and different products had to be quoted and re-quoted and each time the tender value ballooned by a few lakhs. They finalized a couple of times and each time they ran out of funds because of the increase in the quoted prices and the requirement was pushed for the next financial year and the cycle continued. This was a crucial purchase that they dragged on for 4 years after which I lost interest.

Now imagine the same apathy for all their dealings.

Sadly a good example how inefficient our procurement policies are and we often see the same in defence procurements too, starting with pathetic RFP's and tendering of our forces. We could cut a lot of wasted time and money, just by getting more inefficient, which is something that Modi and the new DM should look at.

Two out of three, is more than half good?

Of course it is more than half, unless you calculate differently, which doesn't mean it's good that IA is lacking so much behind, just that more than 66% of the forces are improving capability in a good way. But then again, you have to figure out why they are doing worse than the others and fix the problems to get them at the same level

Is the Indian Army Chief wrong to complain?

Yes, because it's not the lack of funds or will to provide new arms and techs by the MoD that caused several of the problems in IA, but internal problems of IA itself, which he should deal first before complaining at the MoD. This is just a PR case like it can be seen in many countries, when forces trying to convince a new governement to provide more toys, but spending is only one side of the solution, increasing efficiency, taking on corruption within IA in a stronger way and reducing bureaucracies are other sides of the same story.

 

[illusion8]

Sadly a good example how inefficient our procurement policies are and we often see the same in defence procurements too, starting with pathetic RFP's and tendering of our forces. We could cut a lot of wasted time and money, just by getting more inefficient, which is something that Modi and the new DM should look at.
.

He is targeting to streamline most of the processes - lets hope he is successful in it.