Trump warning to Germany/Nato

[Penguin]

An unnecessary exaggeration of the Russian threat is needed to coax Europe back into US vassalage. There is no Russian threat; Russia is essentially a partner of Europe.

Why don't you let the Europeans judge that, particularly those Eastern European ones that used to be under Soviet influence. It is not for nothing e.g. Sweden is reinstating conscription and reinforcing the Gotland garrison

Let the Americans fight their on wars on behalf of Israel, Europe will be at peace; and with peace comes prosperity.
And you're forgetting, a level of State medical welfare that the Americans cannot even dream of.

What makes you think medical care is socialized in all of Europe? Or even the same across all of Europe?

Nevertheless, this raises the question: why have NATO at all? Honestly, it should've been dissolved soon after the Soviet Union collapsed. It's an organization without a purpose. .
My whole point is that we no longer need NATO as its currently structured, but a new organization, with a new name, to reflect the new geo-political reality.

We, as Europeans, do need a NATO for security, for both external and internal reasons. But not one in which we are an old-fashioned extension of the US military.

With Russia determined to regain military strength, and teaming up with OPEC to reduce oil production and raise oil prices (forcing other countries to produce and use more of their domestic sources and strategic supplies if they seek to counter this) and working with e.g. China in challenging status quo in a number of geographical areas of international importance, there is ample external reason for an organization like NATO.

Given the disparities within Europe, and the viciousness of recent armed conflicts withing Europe, a unifying force like NATO is not a luxury and it is important that it is NOT limited to European countries alone.

 

[jamal18]

Why don't you let the Europeans judge that, particularly those Eastern European ones that used to be under Soviet influence. It is not for nothing e.g. Sweden is reinstating conscription and reinforcing the Gotland garrison

The key word is 'soviet'. There is no longer a Soviet Union, the driving force of communism is gone and with it the threat.

I accept that it's not all the same, the standard in Northern Moldova or the Trans-Dneiper republic might not be at par with London or Cologne. However it is widely accepted that the standard of Public health care in Europe in general is miles ahead of the


What makes you think medical care is socialized in all of Europe? Or even the same across all of Europe?

I accept that it's not all the same, the standard in Northern Moldova or the Trans-Dneiper republic might not be at par with London or Cologne. However it is widely accepted that the standard of Public health care in Europe in general is miles ahead of the US.


We, as Europeans, do need a NATO for security, for both external and internal reasons. But not one in which we are an old-fashioned extension of the US military.

With Russia determined to regain military strength, and teaming up with OPEC to reduce oil production and raise oil prices (forcing other countries to produce and use more of their domestic sources and strategic supplies if they seek to counter this) and working with e.g. China in challenging status quo in a number of geographical areas of international importance, there is ample external reason for an organization like NATO.

Given the disparities within Europe, and the viciousness of recent armed conflicts withing Europe, a unifying force like NATO is not a luxury and it is important that it is NOT limited to European countries alone.

The key word is 'soviet'. There is no longer a Soviet Union, the driving force of communism is gone and with it the threat.

I accept that it's not all the same, the standard in Northern Moldova or the Trans-Dneiper republic might not be at par with London or Cologne. However it is widely accepted that the standard of Public health care in Europe in general is miles ahead of the US.

Any partnership with the US is of two unequals. If the US is providing the lion's share of the resources, are they going to accept the same voting rights as Estonia? Europe will become an extension of the US military as you say.

Europe is large enough to form its own military alliance, without the US. All you gain with the US is the enimity of Russia and whoever the US is bombing at the time.

 

[Penguin]

Our dinky 17 million people Netherlands is the 3rd largest foreign investor in the USA. Germany is 6th. Most in the top 10 are European countries. Investments can be moved.

From todays news here:

American investment Volkswagen depends on trade barriers
Photo: AFP
Published: 01 June 2017 14:59 Last update: 01 June 2017 15:10

Volkswagen investments in an American car factory are at risk of being disturbed by possible US trade barriers to trade.

Volkswagen needs clarification from the US government, said Herbert Diess, head of the Volkswagen brand, reports Bloomberg's press office on Thursday.

Volkswagen plans to fully utilize the capacity of a Tennessee location, and also plans to manufacture electric cars. But all these plans depend on signals from the US government. "It has been a roller coaster of emotions," explained Diess.

Apparently, the US President Donald Trump has complained about the United States trade deficit against Germany. Especially the German automobile sector should have denied it. Trump threatened to put a stick for the sale of German cars in the US.

Any trade barriers are a risk to Volkswagen. Although the group produces the Passat and Atlas in the United States Chattanooga, many of the vehicles sold in the US are imported.
http://www.nu.nl/economie/4738032/a...gen-afhankelijk-van-handelsbelemmeringen.html

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

And Nokia was largest mobile manufacturer before Americans dropped nuclear bomb on them. It's next to impossible to beat Americans in software. Neither Europeans or east asians can compete with them. Now in electric cars software will matter more then anything else. And America have already taken early lead in this sector.

Low end electric car market will be taken over by China just like cheap android Chinese smartphones.

It is much less S/W than it is the capacitive sensor, which enables the touch sensitive screen.
People I know told me that Apple stole a critical European patent to create the sensor.
Linux is a European (Finnish) Operating System.
Plenty of other examples.

The key word is 'soviet'. There is no longer a Soviet Union, the driving force of communism is gone and with it the threat.

I accept that it's not all the same, the standard in Northern Moldova or the Trans-Dneiper republic might not be at par with London or Cologne. However it is widely accepted that the standard of Public health care in Europe in general is miles ahead of the US.

Any partnership with the US is of two unequals. If the US is providing the lion's share of the resources, are they going to accept the same voting rights as Estonia? Europe will become an extension of the US military as you say.

Europe is large enough to form its own military alliance, without the US. All you gain with the US is the enimity of Russia and whoever the US is bombing at the time.

You have a Russia with a leader that claims that the dissolving of the Soviet Union
was a global disaster.
That leader breaks the fundaments of European Security by the Invasion and Annexation
of Crimea.
Russia engages in a multitude of unfriendly behaviour, including

• Falsification of documents
• Trolling Swedish Forums, pretending to be Swedish.
• Simulating attacks on its neighbours by bombers.
• Stationing Cruise Missiles.
• Reckless behaviour by fighter pilots
• Visits to the homes of soldiers by Russian Nationals
• Meddling in our internal affairs.
• Flying in commercial airspace without active transponders
• Seems to be financing NGOs which only have one task, promote Russian propaganda.

Russians are not to be trusted, from our point if view.

 

[jamal18]

None of the above are anything unusual, nor do they constitute a military threat. They are a fraction of what the US and its allies get up to.

Annexation of Crimea is simply territory that has always been regarded as Russian. Yes, you can argue the case, but there is enough legitimacy there to understand it. It doesn't follow that Stockholm is next.

As for the Soviet era, his exact words are ' anybody who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union hasn't got a heart. Anybody who wants it back hasn't got a brain.' Not exactly a screaming communist.

 

[TheBlackCoat]

https://twitter.com/x/status/869503804307275776

Long live Trump and the USA

This will push Germany and the EU to create an army and in the long term, it is the US that will lose.

If Europeans were capable they would have done it long time ago. Even if they do it why would USA lose? It would actually help USA focus its energies in Indian ocean and South China Sea to confront and bring down India and China.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

It is much less S/W than it is the capacitive sensor, which enables the touch sensitive screen.
People I know told me that Apple stole a critical European patent to create the sensor.
Linux is a European (Finnish) Operating System.
Plenty of other examples.

I still remember Nokia desperate attempts to come up with their own version of iOS after Apple dropped iPhone bomb early 2007. Only one who could compete with them was google, another American company. Same is going to happen with cars. Linux hardly have any share in PC market.

 

[TheBlackCoat]

USA already destroyed European mobile market, Nokia etc. Now with Tesla they will destroy European car market, BMW, Mercedez. USA already control most important software companies on planet. Bad times ahead for europeans.

Well said.

Trump still have not realized, he cannot deal with Germany separately.

UK is already leaving EU and others are going to follow suit. EU will collapse like a house of cards and Gemany would be the last country standing and then we would deal with Germany separately 1-on-1.

The recent statement by Merkel about Europe providing its' own security is a milestone. Fundamentally, the most important country in Europe is saying it has no confidence in the US.

A break up of Nato makes a global US superpower virtually impossible.

All talk just to save the collapsing EU empire.

Mr. Trump is truly a blessing for Europe.

Finally, we can take charge of our own destiny...

Europe combined has a bigger GDP and better quality of life than Mr. Trump's America.

Time for European solutions to European problems... we have paid enough protection fee through our vassalage...

Time to become equals with America and jointly act where necessary. And act alone where required.

Our problems are many and growing... senseless, goal-less terrorism that we have never seen is becoming common.. Time for shaping our policies which are in our own best interests...

Germany, France, Italy and UK combined political, economic, cultural and industrial power is equal to any super power. Paris still is the intellectual capital of the world.

And lest anyone forget the flatest country in our galaxy, my Netherlands...

So, thank you Mr. Trump for making Europe Great Again.

Europe was, is and shall remain Heart and Soul of Western civilisation...

No, other civilisation has advanced the Human Condition more than the European Civilisation.

UK is leaving EU and others are going follow.

We are hard working people unlike the lazy Europeans.

 

[Skull and Bones]

This proves that Japan and South Korea cannot rely on US for long term, and they should take their defense matters in their own hands.

 

[TheBlackCoat]

Germany has the best tech in the world. Germany doesn't use a single piece of American military hardware. Germany is the snake, waiting to strike, at the right time. Being German himself, Trump should know this very clearly.

Businesses in France are already going bankrupt and being sold. Next in line are Spain and Italy. German firms are not far away either.

This proves that Japan and South Korea cannot rely on US for long term, and they should take their defense matters in their own hands.

First, they should pay the bills for THAAD and other systems deployed by USA for their protection. USA is not a charity organization.

Germany has the best tech in the world. Germany doesn't use a single piece of American military hardware. Germany is the snake, waiting to strike, at the right time. Being German himself, Trump should know this very clearly.

Best? Not even close.

He can go and f**k himself....

Watch your language.

Impeccable "logic": only the USA should have trade surplusses.

LET'S NOT FORGET: TRADE DEFICITS WORK BOTH WAYS!

Trump wouldn't be whining if the situation were the reverse, would he now? So, would not the only 'fair' solution be to all seek parity in our trade balances, being good partners and all? But that's quite a challenge if you have many trading partners!

See Who is Bringing Offshore Money into the U.S
The United States is the most popular country in the world for foreign investment according to the Organization for International Investment. It is easy to forget how foreign investment in the U.S. substantially benefits the economy. The map below illustrates the top ten countries which have contributed to foreign direct investment in the United States (FDIUS) on a cumulative basis as of 2014.

Cumulative foreing direct investment in the United States (FDIUS) over the past few years has reached $2.9 trillion on a historical cost basis.

The top ten contributors are:

• United Kingdom with $449 billion
  
• Japan with $373 billion.
• The Netherlands with $305 billion.
• Canada with $261 billion.
• Surprisingly, the tiny country of Luxembourg with $243 billion.
• Germany with $224 billion.
• Switzerland also at $224 billion.
• France at $223 billion.
• The British Virgin Islands at $100 billion.
• Belgium with $89 billion.

Although many decry the loss of American jobs to other countries, especially manufacturing jobs, foreign investments are creating many well-paying positions for American citizens. This, in turn, supports the overall economy.

https://howmuch.net/articles/foreign-investment-usa

I think that should count for something too.

As for defence spending:

Reality is that NON-US NATO spending has increased steadily mostly 1950-2011. Whereas US NATO spending has been more eratic. As a result, we see below for TOTAL NATO spending a peak for Korean war (early 1950s), Vietnam war (late 1960s), the Reagan years (1980-1989) and post-911 increase (GW Bush). Dips 1970s (end of Vietnam), post 1992 (end of Soviet Union, Clinton years > defence draw down). Those are US (defence) policy related, not European (defence) policy. [edit: granted, the European (defence) policy also reflects the end of the Soviet Union, immediately post 1992]

• The NON-US line is slightly flatter compared to that of the NATO TOTAL, but not much.
• Non-US spending is way more stable though than NATO TOTAL.
• Fluctuations in NATO total coincide with Korean War, Vietnam war build up an draw down, the Reagan years buildup and the post CCCP-collapse drawdown, and the aftermath of 9/11.
• Fluctuation in NON-US spending is a small break in the trendline following the CCCP-collapse.

Which shows it is US spending that jumps and drops eratically, typically when it is in the US interest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/08/28/defense-spending-in-the-u-s-in-four-charts/

Thank you, Washington post.

While I do think Europeans should spend more on defence (in view of instability and potential threats in various parts of the world), but I don't think Europeans are there to finance US foreign adventures (and of late the US hasn't been too trustworthy in the area of motivating its foreign excursions).

They are not doing any charity by investing in the USA. It demonstrates that USA is the best destination for foreign direct investments and these countries do not have better options.

 

[-SINAN-]

First, they should pay the bills for THAAD and other systems deployed by USA for their protection. USA is not a charity organization.

And you are not there to offer protection to foreign countries but due to your national interests.

Let's not try to fool each other.

 

[Penguin]

None of the above are anything unusual, nor do they constitute a military threat. They are a fraction of what the US and its allies get up to.

You have obviously no clue (nor do you provide evidence in support of this claim)

Take Kaliningrad, for example, which is a Cold War remnant still a piece of Russia, although it has no physical connextion to the mothercountry (it is in fact former East Prussia)

Why are 500km cruise missiles and 400km air defence missiles in Kaliningrad Oblast NOT a military threat?

http://www.defence24.com/473498,mis...-by-the-iskanders-from-the-kaliningrad-oblast

They are not doing any charity by investing in the USA. It demonstrates that USA is the best destination for foreign direct investments and these countries do not have better options.

Oh, and running a trade surplus/deficit is charity?

Already VW is contemplating to no longer invest anymore in its US Tenessee plant, due to what Trump is doing. That's jobs in the US that are affected, pal. Do you think VW doesn't have alternatives?

You think Europeans can't invest in Asia, South America?

 

[-SINAN-]

I was thinking that Eastern European countries had been heavily militarized.

 

[NoOne'sBoy]

Trump is pretty much turning the US into a banana republic. I wonder how much more damage donnie will cause to the US credibility.

 

[Penguin]

I was thinking that Eastern European countries had been heavily militarized.

Not at all. But, both Poland and Romania will host an Aegis Ashore BMD site, about which Russia is miffed. Do realize that each sites is just 1 set of radars (like on a ship) and at the moment 2x 8-cell MK41 in a fixed land structure (i.e. relatively easy to take out for Russia).

Trump is pretty much turning the US into a banana republic. I wonder how much more damage donnie will cause to the US credibility.

You can easily see why/how people like Putin benefit from supporting the Donald.