Towards a new & Improved Fauj

[Developereo]

ISI in the crossfire

I am sorry, but I do not have any faith in our civilian politicians' integrity, honesty or capability.

When it comes to safeguarding Pakistan's national interests, I will trust Gen. Pasha any day of the week over Zardai or Nawaaz Sharif.

Let the civilian government first prove themselves by solving problems of power generation, water, education, economy and domestic law enforcement before we let them loose on controlling our national security.

 

[muse]

Indeed a majority of us will share your characterization -- that won't effect coming eventualities -- No one disagree that the politicians are scum and , corrupt and venal, petty and nepotistic -- but that's not what this is about ---- but please do not be persuaded, let the events speaks for themselves.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

pardon my comments as an outsider but it was lovely to witness a lively debate.

i would also like to contribute by 2 rupees (02 cents). to some sxtent almost everything mentioned in the above posts hold valid for pakistan.

i feel what has gone against pakistan is the quality of capable civilian leadership who are respected nationally. india was quite fortunate in those ways. nehru, shastri ji and indira who ruled india during formative years were respected all over the country. i would say at that point the performance of the country was satisfactory (we might be inclined to say it as below average now). so no one really questioned the authority of civilian govt in india. thorugh concerted efforts indian govt also managed to keep military under proper check.

these things couldnt happen in pakistan. the military soon established itself as a major power player. pakistan also did not have a major national leader who was respected through out the country. the failure of civilian leadership led pakistani military to take control.

now it is a contradictory situation. one would like pakistan to be a free and vibrant democracy but that can only happen if military sheds some of its powers. pakistani military sees itself as saviour of pakistan and doesnt want to lose its power in the country. so here in lies the contradiction.

for my part, i have always i admired pakistani armed forces for in my opinion it is they who have kept the country together and stabilised.

i would also like to add defending a country and governing a country are two different things. it is not neccessary that if u are good in one thing then u r sure to be good in another.

i hope i have not offended any one.

 

[SQ8]

I think characterizing only the politicians as nepotistic and corrupt is a little harsh..
When the military itself is not secure from it.

 

[muse]

Now, when we said events will speak for themselves and this army will be made to change, if it does not do it herself and in doing so positions herself as a genuine power broker for future scenario, we had the more Muslim than the Mullah, types create all kinds of ruckus and create disingenuous arguments - Well, how now??

 

[All-Green]

Now, when we said events will speak for themselves and this army will be made to change, if it does not do it herself and in doing so positions herself as a genuine power broker for future scenario, we had the more Muslim than the Mullah, types create all kinds of ruckus and create disingenuous arguments - Well, how now??

Hello Muse,

We discussed the technicality of the matter and the need for boots on ground exceeds the need to mobilize additional divisions for airborne/air assault operations.
SSG has been increased to division strength so we have enough mobile operators when needed and certainly in Swat we used a lot of SSG to attack peochar before the regular infantry grunts had any chance to get anywhere near it.

The change in overall strategy does not require a change in army's formations in my opinion, we have enough dimensions in our military to adapt to most of the feasible strategies and that is what i have been saying.
We need the numbers to deny space to terrorists and i do not agree with reducing numbers to increase mobility.

Now what is the relevance of OBL's death with the proposed reorganization of our fighting formations in a certain way?
Would the Government/ISI/Army need to reassess their performance in this scenario, yes they do and it may not be a bad thing for them or us in the long run.
Mind you we captured/killed more Al Qaeda than any other Army so it is not like we did nothing, however this particular episode has given cause of concern and maybe that will provide the necessary impetus to invigorate and coordinate the operations on another level.

However coming to the reorganization, my concerns are still valid since we need the numbers and combat experience of military in field as opposed to any other formation.

 

[muse]

I think some of us will not see any thing they don't wish to -- anyway the larger point - once again - is to position the Fauj for the future, NOW - because the changes, the transition, not just for the army but the state, are only going to gain strength

 

[SQ8]

I think some of us will not see any thing they don't wish to -- anyway the larger point - once again - is to position the Fauj for the future, NOW - because the changes, the transition, not just for the army but the state, are only going to gain strength

Lets all pray and hope these changes are positive..
even at the cost of a little short lived misery.

 

[Developereo]

Actually, the OBL event works the opposite way: already some Indians are dreaming about replicating the American raid. At the very least there will be public/media pressure on India to repeat this performance.

The reality is that -- assuming Pakistan was not involved -- even if we had detected the American choppers crossing over the border, there is very little we could have done. We were surely not prepared to shoot down four American choppers loaded with soldiers. That will not be the case if we detect India trying the same.

 

[foxbat]

Actually, the OBL event works the opposite way: already some Indians are dreaming about replicating the American raid. At the very least there will be public/media pressure on India to repeat this performance.

I dont believe so.. Most (if not all) Indians understand the difference between an errant student being slapped by a teacher and 2 students fighting it out in the middle of the classroom

 

[Developereo]

I dont believe so.. Most (if not all) Indians understand the difference between an errant student being slapped by a teacher and 2 students fighting it out in the middle of the classroom

I remember there was intense media-fueled pressure on the government after 26/11. It was only MMS's restraint, combined with Indian military's assessment that prevented an armed response. What will happen if BJP is in charge (Modi?) and the Indian military modernization is in place?

 

[muse]

I am sorry, but I do not have any faith in our civilian politicians' integrity, honesty or capability.

When it comes to safeguarding Pakistan's national interests, I will trust Gen. Pasha any day of the week over Zardai or Nawaaz Sharif.

Develepero -- still think the same?

 

[Developereo]

Develepero -- still think the same?

Don't know what to think at this point...

One thing I know is that the Pakistan military could not very well take on the US even if they came with blaring horns. As to the question of who knew about OBL's presence, it is hard to say anything. It is likely that someone in the security establishment knew, but there is no reason to suspect the top brass. It can be argued that Kiyani and Pasha should be held accountable just because they are the chiefs, but what will that achieve? It may be more important to use this as an opportunity to go through both organizations with a fine toothed comb and really weed out the extremists.

This comes back to the question of ideology. The army/ISI are there to protect Pakistan's national interests, not some nebulous Islamic cause. The question then becomes: did hiding OBL serve Pakistan's interests in any way?

 

[All-Green]

I think some of us will not see any thing they don't wish to -- anyway the larger point - once again - is to position the Fauj for the future, NOW - because the changes, the transition, not just for the army but the state, are only going to gain strength

Muse,

Once again i fail to see the light and once again you try little to clarify what i am missing.
I have looked at a piece or two in this thread and commented on the non viability of reorienting 2-3 divisions of our infantry towards more mobile role, while in parallel reducing the number of troops.
I have emphasized the need for ample boots on ground to hold territory and control the flow of events, if we are to take on every god damn militant group in the Pakistan Afghanistan belt.

We have increased SSG strength from one brigade to one division and have more actively deployed them in recent years than ever before.
Peochar operation was an air assault carried on by a whole battalion of SSG while the regular infantry was miles and miles away.
We also deployed SSG extensively in SWA where we landed our air assault troops on mountain tops and did not let the buggers ambush us.

My issue with the proposed reorientation of military is why should we propose to reduce the numbers when we have ample mobility as it is and need the numbers not just to deal with traditional rival armies but with these terrorists/insurgents as well.

If the reorientation required is with respect to the low intensity conflict, then there are extensive retraining programs active in Army and even in PMA such courses are in place now.

My argument is based on the military non viability of the reorientation as envisioned in the original article pertaining to the doctrine of more mobility with lesser numbers.
I am of the view that we have enough mobility to handle these buggers and also need a lot of troops to choke this insurgency to death.

I am in no way saying that our national security policy does not need a major revamp.
Clearly we should strive more and more in order to improve the counter terrorism network.
We need to work on how we are processing the information received from all avenues into a clear and concise strategy whereby there are very quantifiable objectives given to all the organs of state including the bureaucracy, police, paramilitary, military and agencies.
There should be a national security council which has both civilian and military presence and it should be directly fed in the bits and pieces of information being available to all the agencies.
This shall ensure more visibility, cross questioning, accountability as well as ensuring that everyone is in the same boat.
The PM, COAS, Chief Justice, Foreign minister and interior minister should be on this NSC-National Security Council.
The NSC should have direct access to all the agencies heads and IGs of each province.

I am all for improvement in how we are approaching this war but to me in this post OBL scenario, the area to focus on is our agencies and the police.
The police needs to be taken off their bodyguard duty and be given much more authority, if we are to deny breathing space to these buggers.
We need criminal cases and proper evidence to eradicate the support structure, army action is only effective against the armed terrorists/militants.
Many a bugger has been caught by Army and released due to lack of evidence, only to strike again.
We need the police here as well.
Maybe the trend of drastic changes and interference in police appointments needs to end.
These changes should only be made by the DIGs/IGs and the political pressure on our police should be lifted completely in order to make them professional and fearless of any political fallout of their interrogations and investigations.

 

[PoKeMon]

OBl killing ops in pakistan army area has surely suggested a new dimension to be added to pakistan fauj for its improvement and that is dismantling all its active involvement with world leaders of terrorism. An army would not like to be called as terrorists.
A nation growth is highly depends on its relations with foreign countries which built on trust. Pakistan army wing, in current situation, doesn't allow political wing a condusive environment to look for all round and sustainable development.