Timur: Genious conquerer or savage barbarian?

[Icewolf]

Taimur killed many Indians so Indians crying. Taimur made a skeleton wall out of New Delhi Hindis

 

[Samandri]

Taimur killed many Indians so Indians crying. Taimur made a skeleton wall out of New Delhi Hindis

He basically destroyed muslim Tughlaq rule and most historians agree that bulk of the Delhi inhabitants were muslims that he killed. What most offensive was his usage of islam card, Timurids themselves were nominal muslims , yet they had the audacity to call tughlaqs and Afghans as kafirs in 1398 and 1526 respectively ......

 

[Icewolf]

He basically destroyed muslim Tughlaq rule and most historians agree that bulk of the Delhi inhabitants were muslims that he killed. What most offensive was his usage of islam card, Timurids themselves were nominal muslims , yet they had the audacity to call tughlaqs and Afghans as kafirs in 1398 and 1526 respectively ......

He killed Muslims as he hated the Muslim rule in India. He killed the elites

 

[gangsta_rap]

lol the only service he did in benefit to the muslim world was driving the Knights Hospitallers off of Asia for good.
If he had not attacked Anatolia, Vienna would've been annexed by the Ottomans eventually.

 

[Charon 2]

Which cities of Afghanistan you are talking about?.....As a muslim , i see timur destroying muslim world, the millions of people he killed were muslims, his wars were not even for establishing rule on conquering territories but just defeating armies for fun and glory...........he destroyed muslims of golden horde in modern day Russia, burning down their cities which led to rise of Russians......he destroyed ottomans, halting their conquests for a century......Even mongols before him were better, they exactly knew what they are doing and established a firm rule on conqured territories.

Herat for example flourished under the Timurids.

Timur (Tamerlane), incorporated much of the area into his own vast Timurid Empire. The city of Herat became one of the capitals of his empire, and his grandson Pir Muhammad held the seat of Kandahar. Timur rebuilt most of Afghanistan's infrastructure which was destroyed by his early ancestor. The area was progressing under his rule. Timurid rule began declining in the early 16th century with the rise of a new ruler in Kabul, Babur. Taimur, a descendent of Genghis Khan, created a vast new empire across Russia and Persia which he ruled from his capital in Samarkland in present-day Uzbekistan. Taimur captured Herat in 1381 and his son, Shah Rudkh moved the capital of the Timurid empire to Herat in 1405. The Timurids, a Turkic people, brought the Turkic nomadic culture of Central Asia within the orbit of Persian civilisation, establishing Herat as one of the most cultured and refined cities in the world. This fusion of Central Asian and Persian culture was a major legacy for the future Afghanistan. A century later, the emperor Babur, a descendent of Taimur, visited Herat and wrote, "the whole habitable world had not such a town as Herat." For the next 300 years the eastern Afghan tribes periodically invaded India creating vast Indo-Afghan empires. In 1500 CE, Taimur's descendent Babur was driven out of his home in the Ferghana valley. By the 16th century western Afghanistan again revereted to Persian rule under the Safavid dynasty.[49][50]

There are some mistakes in this qoute as Timur wasn't a Chinggisid

 

[Samandri]

Herat for example flourished under the Timurids.

Timur (Tamerlane), incorporated much of the area into his own vast Timurid Empire. The city of Herat became one of the capitals of his empire, and his grandson Pir Muhammad held the seat of Kandahar. Timur rebuilt most of Afghanistan's infrastructure which was destroyed by his early ancestor. The area was progressing under his rule. Timurid rule began declining in the early 16th century with the rise of a new ruler in Kabul, Babur. Taimur, a descendent of Genghis Khan, created a vast new empire across Russia and Persia which he ruled from his capital in Samarkland in present-day Uzbekistan. Taimur captured Herat in 1381 and his son, Shah Rudkh moved the capital of the Timurid empire to Herat in 1405. The Timurids, a Turkic people, brought the Turkic nomadic culture of Central Asia within the orbit of Persian civilisation, establishing Herat as one of the most cultured and refined cities in the world. This fusion of Central Asian and Persian culture was a major legacy for the future Afghanistan. A century later, the emperor Babur, a descendent of Taimur, visited Herat and wrote, "the whole habitable world had not such a town as Herat." For the next 300 years the eastern Afghan tribes periodically invaded India creating vast Indo-Afghan empires. In 1500 CE, Taimur's descendent Babur was driven out of his home in the Ferghana valley. By the 16th century western Afghanistan again revereted to Persian rule under the Safavid dynasty.[49][50]

There are some mistakes in this qoute as Timur wasn't a Chinggisid

timirids might have rebuilt the walls and buildings of some cities of Afghanistan, destroyed by their Mongol invaders.......But Afghanistan actually never recovered from Mongol invasion, the desertification in Afghanistan is result of mongol devastation as they destroyed the canal system and agriculture and left the regions depopulated so no care for decades.

 

[Charon 2]

timirids might have rebuilt the walls and buildings of some cities of Afghanistan, destroyed by their Mongol invaders.......But Afghanistan actually never recovered from Mongol invasion, the desertification in Afghanistan is result of mongol devastation as they destroyed the canal system and agriculture and left the regions depopulated so no care for decades.

Not really for decades. All the destroyed cities were quickly rebuilt by the Timurids and previously under the Kartids. However the current situation of Afghanistan isn't the fault of Mongols as you seem to say that.

 

[Samandri]

Not really for decades. All the destroyed cities were quickly rebuilt by the Timurids and previously under the Kartids. However the current situation of Afghanistan isn't the fault of Mongols as you seem to say that.

You seem to have soft spot for them due to pan-turanism, connection of uzbeks , Kirghiz etc with mongols but facts are facts.

"According to Rhea Talley Stewart , the Mongols destroyed, "along with the people, the irrigation systems they had created. No one was left to replace them. Afghanistan is a dry land; the heavy winter snows must leave enough moisture to last all year. Irrigation means life. ... It turned salt. Of all the places destroyed . . . only Herat, because it is in a fertile valley, really rebuilt itself." Prior to the Mongol onslaught, settled communities had never experienced such methodical devastation, and not until the twentieth century would such a scale of intentional
destruction of life and infrastructure be repeated. When the Mongols first came to Afghanistan they had no intention of holding the place. They simply wanted to destroy it.
Source: Afghanistan: A Military History from Alexander the Great to the Fall of the Taliban page 91

 

[Charon 2]

You seem to have soft spot for them due to pan-turanism, connection of uzbeks , Kirghiz etc with mongols but facts are facts.

"According to Rhea Talley Stewart , the Mongols destroyed, "along with the people, the irrigation systems they had created. No one was left to replace them. Afghanistan is a dry land; the heavy winter snows must leave enough moisture to last all year. Irrigation means life. ... It turned salt. Of all the places destroyed . . . only Herat, because it is in a fertile valley, really rebuilt itself." Prior to the Mongol onslaught, settled communities had never experienced such methodical devastation, and not until the twentieth century would such a scale of intentional
destruction of life and infrastructure be repeated. When the Mongols first came to Afghanistan they had no intention of holding the place. They simply wanted to destroy it.
Source: Afghanistan: A Military History from Alexander the Great to the Fall of the Taliban page 91

I don't have any soft spot for Mongols and I'm also not a Pan-Turanist. Your posts sound like that Mongols are the reason why Afghanistan is messed up and sorry but that's ridiculous. The reason for the current situation of Afghanistan is the rivalry between the ethnic groups of Afghanistan and that they can't find a solution for a peaceful living. Another problem are the Taliban who want to throw the country into a bronze age tribal country with backwards laws and stone age rules. BTW these Taliban are basically Pashtuns and not Mongols, Tajiks or Uzbeks

I don't deny that the Mongol invasion was disasterous for Afghanistan but Kabul was rebuilt again and it also flourished under the Timurids. The same goes for Kandahar.

In the 14th century, Kabul became a major trading center under the kingdom of Timur(Tamerlane). In 1504, the city fell to Babur from the north and made into his headquarters, which became one of the principal cities of his later Mughal Empire. In 1525, Babur describedKabulistan in his memoirs by writing that:

"In the country of Kābul there are many and various tribes. Its valleys and plains are inhabited by Tūrks, Aimāks, and Arabs. In the city and the greater part of the villages, the population consists of Tājiks (called "Sarts" by Babur). Many other of the villages and districts are occupied by Pashāis, Parāchis, Tājiks, Berekis, and Afghans. In the hill-country to the west, reside the Hazāras and Nukderis. Among the Hazāra and Nukderi tribes, there are some who speak the Moghul language. In the hill-country to the north-east lies Kaferistān, such as Kattor and Gebrek. To the south is Afghanistān... There are eleven or twelve different languages spoken in Kābul: Arabic, Persian, Tūrki, Moghuli, Hindi,Afghani, Pashāi, Parāchi, Geberi, Bereki, and Lamghāni..."[27]

—Baburnama, 1525

Mirza Muhammad Haidar Dughlat, a poet from Hindustan who visited at the time wrote: "Dine and drink in Kabul: it is mountain, desert, city, river and all else." It was from here that Babur began his 1526 conquest of Hindustan, which was ruled by the Afghan Lodi dynasty and began east of the Indus River in what is present-day Pakistan. Babur loved Kabul due to the fact that he lived in it for 20 years and the people were loyal to him, including its weather that he was used to. His wish to be buried in Kabul was finally granted. The inscription on his tomb contains the famous Persian couplet, which states: اگرفردوس روی زمین است همین است و همین است و همین است (If there is a paradise on earth, it is this, it is this, it is this!)[28]

It became part of the Timurids from the 14th century to the 15th century, a dynasty founded by Timur (Tamerlane) that began rebuilding cities and towns. Kandahar was described by Ibn Batutta in 1333 as a large and prosperous town three nights journey from Ghazni.[7]

 

[Brutas]

One could argue Timur was just a warlord. He sided with Russian principalities in his war against the Tatar Golden Horde. Tatars under Tokhtamysh's had burnt down Moscow to the ground(1382) like Batu Khan did in the 13th century (done only a few times in history, the other two being in 1571 by Crimean Tatars & later by Napolean) and Timur was vehemently opposed to that. It is believed by many that in retaliation he burnt down Ryazan (Tatar territory near Moscow). He fought the Ottomans too. He devastated Mid East but left Armenia virtually intact.

Religion played very little role in his wars for booties in east, west & North

 

[Jaanbaz]

any missile/ship pakistani have to honor their hero ,
he killed much more Indians<pakistani's hindu ancestors> in modern pakistan geography than indians in modern India.

He sacked Delhi. Its your city. Shame on you guys, can't even defending one city.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Indians will now rejoice.

I thought so but read the comments, they are still complaining.

 

[Jaanbaz]

I would say the same about our western neighbor!

There was no Pakistan before, it was all Mahabharta. That's what you guys say.

 

[INDIC]

There was no Pakistan before, it was all Mahabharta. That's what you guys say.

Akalmand, Mahabharata is an epic poem, not a territory.

 

[Chak Bamu]

This thread is still going? How do people find time to discuss this? What is there to discuss? He was a brute who did immense damage to Muslims and non-Muslims alike - simple as that. I can not imagine discussing anything beyond that.