Time to forget Kashmir

[TaimiKhan]

The hate has died long back.

It is now the question of survival in a very competitive world!

It is just that when these niggles are raised, one floats back into history!

Nops, hate is still there among many on this side of the border as well as on the other side, aannnddd also among some others from other countries, which is understandable.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Nops, hate is still there among many on this side of the border as well as on the other side, aannnddd also among some others from other countries, which is understandable.

You maybe right.

But of late, I don't see the same fire of hate.

I find people more rationale.

No longer do they feel that the Pak Govt is the cause of terrorism.

No longer they are up in arms for talks with Pakistan inspite of terror attacks.

I see a calm and a rationality.

 

[Burnz]

To say Pakistanis would ever be able to forget Kashmir is ridiculous. Forget the emotions tied into it, the politics of the country would never allow it to. Pakistan's richest families belong come from a Kashmiri background. The rich Punjabis you may have heard of also in large include a heavy Kashmiri ethnicity. Heck Nawaz Sharif is Kashmiri (so they have led the country as well).

Then there is the whole issue of Kashmiris wanting freedom. How can you ignore that? I have always preferred the notion of Pakistan and India both letting Kashmir go free as a new nation than Pakistan getting it. Since for us the most paramount thing is Kashmir's freedom.

This is the ridiculous utopia of an independent Kashmir Nation has been indoctrinated in the minds of Pakistanis.

Pakistan holds that all future talks should be
based on the Kashmiri people's right to self-determination as established by
an internationally supervised plebiscite offering accession to either India or
Pakistan. Pakistan does not support independence as an option for Kashmir.
Though Pakistan also feels that future talks should be dictated by the Simla
Agreement and any UN resolutions, Pakistan does not rule out third party
mediation or good offices.

http://publicinternationallawandpolicygroup.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/APHCDelegation.pdf

Right from the beginning, Pakistan has always rejected the option of Kashmiri independence.

Genesis of Kashmir Conflict

 

[EjazR]

Two-thirds of Kashmiris in India want independence from India:

Kashmir 101: Decoding Kashmir's conflict - What do Kashmiris want now? - CSMonitor.com

Most Kashmiris want independence, India imposes curfew | Asia-Pasific | World Bulletin

Why quote a 1995 poll when you have one from 2010. And Gilgit Baltistan is part of the historical J&K, ask the separatists and the JKLF in your country. They will tell you that GB should either become independent on become independent part of a J&K state.

Most Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir want to remain part of Pakistan. The Gilgit-Baltistan people are not Kashmiris, they do not consider themselves Kashmiris, & want to remain a part of Pakistan. There are ethnic/racial, as well as huge religious differences between the people in Gilgit-Baltistan & the people of Kashmir. The people of Gilgit-Baltistan are Ismaili (liberal) Shias, & do not want to live under the Sunnis in Kashmir, it is the Sunni leadership in J&K that wants to dominate the people of Gilgit-Baltistan, is forcing the issue here. In fact, Gilgit-Baltistan has already been converted into the 5th province of Pakistan, & the Gilgit-Baltistan people have already accepted that.

Two-thirds of Kashmiris in India want independence from India:

Kashmir 101: Decoding Kashmir's conflict - What do Kashmiris want now? - CSMonitor.com

Most Kashmiris want independence, India imposes curfew | Asia-Pasific | World Bulletin

Most Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir want to remain part of Pakistan. The Gilgit-Baltistan people are not Kashmiris, they do not consider themselves Kashmiris, & want to remain a part of Pakistan. There are ethnic/racial, as well as huge religious differences between the people in Gilgit-Baltistan & the people of Kashmir. The people of Gilgit-Baltistan are Ismaili (liberal) Shias, & do not want to live under the Sunnis in Kashmir, it is the Sunni leadership in J&K that wants to dominate the people of Gilgit-Baltistan, is forcing the issue here. In fact, Gilgit-Baltistan has already been converted into the 5th province of Pakistan, & the Gilgit-Baltistan people have already accepted that.

Why quote a 1995 poll when you have one from 2010. And Gilgit Baltistan is part of the historical J&K, ask the separatists and the JKLF in your country. They will tell you that GB should either become independent on become independent part of a J&K state. Besides, in 1995, there was militancy and it was impossible to have a free and fair opinion survey where you have militants killing people who did not agree with them.

It revealed that on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir.

BBC News - 'First' Kashmir survey produces 'startling' results

 

[EjazR]

Only Sunni Muslims from valley want independence(?) or whatever, unfortunately they are not only Kashmiris living in Jammu and Kashmir.

As you have correctly stated that Sunnis are not the only ones who are of Islam.

Kashmiris are basically Sufis.

There are also quite a sizeable numbers who are Shias.

And then there are the Hindus and Sikhs too!

Well the sunni muslims is not the only distinction. You have Gujjars and Bakerwals who are sunni who are pro-India. Similarly you have shia organizations in the valley who are pro-independence.

On the other hand you have wahabbi/ AhleHadith scholars in the valley who are pro-India.

Being sunni or shia (sufis are basically sunnis too) does predicate wether they prefer independance or not.

But yes, being in the valley is a strong indicator. It just happens that major majority of those who live in the valley happen to be Sunni Muslims.

 

[gubbi]

Your connection to the whole matter? Supporting Kashmir's right to self-determination is not militancy, its fundamentally the vote - the plebiscite.

Nero plays the fiddle when Rome burns. This is whats happening with Pakistan - Nero being "The Establishment". Your country is burning due to years of neglect and misplaced priorities. Your countrymen are dying, literally being massacred, due to blow back of those very policies and all you fellows are worried about is "Independence of Kashmir" aka Plebiscite, in the vain hope of grabbing the area?

Wow. Talk about misplaced priorities!

 

[53fd]

Why quote a 1995 poll when you have one from 2010. And Gilgit Baltistan is part of the historical J&K, ask the separatists and the JKLF in your country. They will tell you that GB should either become independent on become independent part of a J&K state. Besides, in 1995, there was militancy and it was impossible to have a free and fair opinion survey where you have militants killing people who did not agree with them.

Why don't you ask the people of Gilgit-Baltistan themselves? I suggest you research how the Gilgit-Baltistan people have chosen Pakistan over the Kashmir movement, & decided to be a political part of Pakistan. They do not want to be part of AJK & J&K, which is why they are happily part of Pakistan. AJK is btw, not a part of Pakistan.

 

[EjazR]

Why don't you ask the people of Gilgit-Baltistan themselves? I suggest you research how the Gilgit-Baltistan people have chosen Pakistan over the Kashmir movement, & decided to be a political part of Pakistan. They do not want to be part of AJK & J&K, which is why they are happily part of Pakistan. AJK is btw, not a part of Pakistan.

Well why is the Pakistani govt. so scared that it doesn't allow any international organization to go and do an opinion survey on what they want? They haven't even given the right to vote for God's sake until 70 years after independence in 2009. The Indian state of J&K had its first elections in 1951.

 

[53fd]

Well why is the Pakistani govt. so scared that it doesn't allow any international organization to go and do an opinion survey on what they want? They haven't even given the right to vote for God's sake until 70 years after independence in 2009. The Indian state of J&K had its first elections in 1951.

I don't know where you get your information from about Gilgit-Baltistan, but elections took place there in 2009:

A new dawn for Gilgit Baltistan: Elections in the fifth province of Pakistan*|*LUBP

http://www.hrcp-web.org/pdf/Gilgit-Baltistan Report.pdf

I suggest you read the article 370 of the Indian constitution on Kashmir.

 

[Jade]

Why don't you ask the people of Gilgit-Baltistan themselves? I suggest you research how the Gilgit-Baltistan people have chosen Pakistan over the Kashmir movement, & decided to be a political part of Pakistan. They do not want to be part of AJK & J&K, which is why they are happily part of Pakistan. AJK is btw, not a part of Pakistan.

What is your point? You would not want to part with G&B or P o k, but would want India to relinquish its control on J&K. This is what is called Hypocrisy

 

[SBD-3]

Can't say about Pakistan but Indian Politics is not tied around Kashmir there is no or little discussion about it freedom in other parts of India its only fight against so called terrorists from Pakistan which would be definitely won by India.

Not independent but ignorant of the fact that Kashmir is the key issue between the two countries and a peaceful stable future of the region is tied with a peaceful yet acceptable solution of Kashmir to all the stakeholders.
I sometimes wonder why do Indians policymakers try to work on the opposite side of causailty. They think that trade would foster relationships while ignoring that its the otherway around.

 

[SBD-3]

In his 1967 book Myth of Independence Z.A. Bhutto wrote that Pakistanis consider it "an article of faith" that Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan. The words were chosen carefully because Z.A.B. had learned better: in the 1965 war Kashmiris called in Indian troops rather than join forces with Pakistani infiltrators. Pakistanis were never told that because, well, what Pakistani politician stoops to inform ordinary Pakistanis about the truth of distant affairs, foreign or domestic?

In the past the ISI has been accused of killing Kashmiris who support independence, rather than attachment with Pakistan. And the Wikileaks reports from captured Taliban in Guantanamo are of the ISI directing killings in Kashmir, not Indians: link

1- I agree that the meaning of freedom is multifacit when it comes to Kashmir. Freedom inculdes not only freedom from one stakeholder but also freedom for both (which I think should be most workable solution between all the stakeholders.) Let the Kashmiris decide what do they want, even if they chose to be free from both Pakistan and India, it should be an issue with both India and Pakistan.
2- The same report you're referring to also inculded the truthfullness assessment of the investigation authorities which clearly mentioned that the statement of said prisoner was not very reliable since he changed his statements often during the investigation as well as often colflicted with his own previous statement. The thread on this which was based on Indian Media's report completely omitted this qualification, so did you. So speak the complete truth or a complete lie, if you can, rather than the half. Doing this is far worse than being a lier, a hypocrist.

 

[Solomon2]

The same report you're referring to also inculded the truthfullness assessment of the investigation authorities which clearly mentioned that the statement of said prisoner was not very reliable since he changed his statements often during the investigation as well as often colflicted with his own previous statement. The thread on this which was based on Indian Media's report completely omitted this qualification, so did you.

Would you link directly to the Wikileaks document in question, please?