Time to forget Kashmir

[gubbi]

Then there is the whole issue of Kashmiris wanting freedom. How can you ignore that? I have always preferred the notion of Pakistan and India both letting Kashmir go free as a new nation than Pakistan getting it. Since for us the most paramount thing is Kashmir's freedom.

Yes. Even if the cons far far outweigh the pros. At the expense of your own sovereignty, peace and prosperity. Who cares, right?

 

[TOPGUN]

What does ANYONE have to trust me for? I provide links, proofs, citations, and arguments. What trust is necessary?

Now you are just cowering behind your betters. There are plenty of Pakistanis who don't use the "trust me" phrase. I am not indicting a whole nation.

If you have some fact or insight that you can provide yet refrain from doing so, why am I to blame?

Lol what the hell do you know about kashmir huh ? or whats it about ? what from online sources do you even know the real facts the insde stories you don't its what i was refering too you don't know jack about that part of the world and don't try to cover up you dirty words read what you wrote >the word " Pakistani's " using it as in towards Pakistan as a nation and its people you do not know nothing about kashimir so just leave it why are you arguing for and wasting my time. And iam not blaming you for anything and no .. no one has to trust you just like you don't trust PAKSTANI's that use the word trust like we are another alien race from another planet right and not part of this world so we simply can't use its eng vocb word right plzz give it a rest simply and let go you don't know what you are talking about better you stick to your israeli threads.

 

[JonAsad]

The Express Tribune is becoming a western mouth peace-

 

[Solomon2]

Lol what the hell do you know about kashmir huh ? or whats it about ? what from online sources do you even know the real facts -

I didn't write the article. Why not apply criticism to the author, rather than uselessly attempt to spear the messenger?

iam not blaming you for anything and no .. no one has to trust you -

I'll take that as a compliment, thank you.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Of course Kashmir is an article of faith for both sides.

Four wars and many small wars have been fought. And many unrecorded skirmishes.

What has been the end result?

Keep fighting.

Those who supply us arms will be the happiest.

What will be gain?

Many dead who will be honoured as great martyrs..... and then forgotten!

It reminds me of the lyrics of Pink Floyd'

Us and Them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the General sat, as the lines on the map
Moved from side to side
Black and Blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round

 

[Rafi]

No govt in Pakistan would survive the public rage if the Kashmiri people were betrayed, in fact especially in Punjab - the Kashmiri origin people are a very strong lobby and community.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

No govt in Pakistan would survive the public rage if the Kashmiri people were betrayed, in fact especially in Punjab - the Kashmiri origin people are a very strong lobby and community.

Just the issue that inhibits.

Same with India.

 

[Solomon2]

what from online sources do you even know the real facts -

If you don't believe in such a thing as objective truth then there is little I can do to help you; you need psychiatric help. But in general I try to get my info from books, not websites - and many of these books are available in Pakistan as well as the U.S., for those who care to make the effort:

Soon after the beginning of the unrest in Indian-controlled Kashmir during 1988-89, Pakistan's ISI expanded its support for Kashmiri groups opposing Indian rule. The ISI had been in contact with the Jammu and Kashmir Jamaat-e-Islami and the secular nationalist Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), the two significant indigenous Kashmiri groups...A Kashmir cell within the ISI was assigned the tasks of recruiting, training, and arming of Kashmiri militants. Pakistani support tilted away from the JKLF...The JKLF demanded that Kashmiris be given the option of independence from both India and Pakistan...the JKLF's stance in favor of independence...did not appeal to Pakistani officials...

...The ISI moved swiftly to organize and centrally control the Kashmir insurgency soon after the removal of the Bhutto government in August 1990....Witin a year of Sharif's tenure, the Jamaat-e-Islami's group, the Hizbul Mujahideen, had muscled its way to dominate Kashmiri militant groups:

As the freedom movement transformed into religious jihad, its first target was the JKLF....Hizbul Mujahideen started "Jihad" against JKLF...The JKLF leader, Amanullah Khan, told a Press Conference in Islamabad in 1991 that "Hizbul Mujahideen not only liquidates JKLF fighters, it also informs the Indian Army of our hide-outs. As a result 500 important JKLF commanders have already been martyred." In Muzaffarabad, a leader of the JKLF who wanted to remain anonymous because heheld a government job, said, "The ISI had actually given Hizbul Mujahideen the task of completely liquidating JKLF from occupied Kashmir..."​

- excerpted from Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military, Hussain Haqqani, pp. 287-290.

 

[graphican]

Just by reading the title, I could tell that it is posted by either an Indian or some lunatic.

 

[TOPGUN]

If you don't believe in such a thing as objective truth then there is little I can do to help you; you need psychiatric help. But in general I try to get my info from books, not websites - and many of these books are available in Pakistan as well as the U.S., for those who care to make the effort:

Soon after the beginning of the unrest in Indian-controlled Kashmir during 1988-89, Pakistan's ISI expanded its support for Kashmiri groups opposing Indian rule. The ISI had been in contact with the Jammu and Kashmir Jamaat-e-Islami and the secular nationalist Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), the two significant indigenous Kashmiri groups...A Kashmir cell within the ISI was assigned the tasks of recruiting, training, and arming of Kashmiri militants. Pakistani support tilted away from the JKLF...The JKLF demanded that Kashmiris be given the option of independence from both India and Pakistan...the JKLF's stance in favor of independence...did not appeal to Pakistani officials...

...The ISI moved swiftly to organize and centrally control the Kashmir insurgency soon after the removal of the Bhutto government in August 1990....Witin a year of Sharif's tenure, the Jamaat-e-Islami's group, the Hizbul Mujahideen, had muscled its way to dominate Kashmiri militant groups:

As the freedom movement transformed into religious jihad, its first target was the JKLF....Hizbul Mujahideen started "Jihad" against JKLF...The JKLF leader, Amanullah Khan, told a Press Conference in Islamabad in 1991 that "Hizbul Mujahideen not only liquidates JKLF fighters, it also informs the Indian Army of our hide-outs. As a result 500 important JKLF commanders have already been martyred." In Muzaffarabad, a leader of the JKLF who wanted to remain anonymous because heheld a government job, said, "The ISI had actually given Hizbul Mujahideen the task of completely liquidating JKLF from occupied Kashmir..."​

- excerpted from Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military, Hussain Haqqani, pp. 287-290.

Its you who needs help you are sick in the head don't attack me again its worthless to waste my time on you .

 

[TOPGUN]

I didn't write the article. Why not apply criticism to the author, rather than uselessly attempt to spear the messenger?

I'll take that as a compliment, thank you.

Take it as you want its far from a compliment you need some serious mental help.

 

[Solomon2]

Take it as you want its far from a compliment you need some serious mental help.

Do you believe in objective truth or not?

 

[Awesome]

In his 1967 book Myth of Independence Z.A. Bhutto wrote that Pakistanis consider it "an article of faith" that Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan. The words were chosen carefully because Z.A.B. had learned better: in the 1965 war Kashmiris called in Indian troops rather than join forces with Pakistani infiltrators. Pakistanis were never told that because, well, what Pakistani politician stoops to inform ordinary Pakistanis about the truth of distant affairs, foreign or domestic?

In the past the ISI has been accused of killing Kashmiris who support independence, rather than attachment with Pakistan. And the Wikileaks reports from captured Taliban in Guantanamo are of the ISI directing killings in Kashmir, not Indians: link

Now you're digressing towards Pakistan's moral standing on Kashmir. This can lead to opening a can of worms of bickering arguments here.

The fundamental idea is of where the majority will go. Even in 1999 a farmer chap informed the IA about the infiltrators (or perhaps this is a feel good story that they come up with always). Why bother with feel good stories, Pakistanis confidently ask for a vote in Kashmir. The rest of the world cowers on the very mention of a plebiscite. That in itself is a testament to the justification of Pakistan's Kashmir position being morally correct.

What could be more simpler than "Hey just ask Kashmiris!". The rest is all just feeble excuses to make yourselves feel good.

The argument about forgetting Kashmir has never been about our moral stance on Kashmir, its mostly that the odds are stacked up against us. You the Americans love Indian money and actively want to screw over the Kashmiris in hopes for an MMRCA deal. You dare not hurt Indian sentiments, but you can throw Kashmir to the wolves. Your pro-freedom positions are "national interests" thick. Tomoorow if Oil is discovered in Kashmir, suddenly Kashmir's freedom would be the most important thing for the Americans. America goes around the world convincing everyone else not to support Pakistan on Kashmir because we have the moral upper ground and its always possible people will support us. All your talk about democracy goes down the drain when you prove through your actions on why the self-determination right is not allowable for Kashmiris.

So the odds are stacked up against us. But Pakistanis don't think that way. As I said both emotionally and politically there are major forces in Pakistan pushing us towards Kashmir that even American might can't quell.

I personally don't even want the vote to be if they want to join Pakistan or not. It should be about if they want to be an independent nation or not. This desire is perhaps not fueled by a sense of sainthood, but mostly for selfish reasons. I can see this formula working and being agreeable to both sides and that would mean peace between India and Pakistan once and for all.

 

[Awesome]

Yes. Even if the cons far far outweigh the pros. At the expense of your own sovereignty, peace and prosperity. Who cares, right?

In life I've seen doing the right thing always sucks and the cons outweigh the pros, except for one little thing, you can sleep at night. It all depends how much you value that.

 

[Solomon2]

Why bother with feel good stories, Pakistanis confidently ask for a vote in Kashmir. The rest of the world cowers on the very mention of a plebiscite.

Not I.

You the Americans love Indian money and actively want to screw over the Kashmiris in hopes for an MMRCA deal.

First I've heard of it.

I personally don't even want the vote to be if they want to join Pakistan or not. It should be about if they want to be an independent nation or not. This desire is perhaps not fueled by a sense of sainthood, but mostly for selfish reasons. I can see this formula working and being agreeable to both sides and that would mean peace between India and Pakistan once and for all.

I agree. Do you really think the P.A. and ISI will ever permit a civilian government to pursue this course? They didn't in 1999, preferring to undermine Sharif's approaches to India by launching the Kargil war. What makes today different?