Time to come down to earth

[Meengla]

this meengla guy supports zerdari and peoples party just for the information

Yeah, I tend to support PPP because I think it is currently the only truly national political party of Pakistan and is also one of the most secular ones.

However it was an Army Chief Musharraf who came closest to resolving/shelving Kashmir issue because the 'laws of diminishing returns' on Kashmir was becoming obvious to Musharraf/army. Ultimately, from Pakistan's side, it would be either the military or someone from Punjab who will make peace with India.

So quit these ending self-flagellations, these wish-full 'we do this', these talks of 'revolution'. None of them help enough. Get into the specifics now.

The end results of policies pursued by Pakistan should be to secure Pakistan's water rights, give Kashmiris maximum autonomy/freedom/justice, reduce expenditures on weapons in both India/Pakistan, stop these proxy wars, kick out the Westerners from this region, completely eliminate Al Qaida from our region, force the Talibans to truly share power in Afghanistan, make trade, tourism, and commerce boom, formulate policies based upon the savings from the peace dividends... In my opinion there is no clearer path forward to these goals then to make peace with India. I am fully aware of the Pakistani and Indian side of this debate. But I want all of us to move forward and envision what the future holds for our region. Either more or even worse of the same or a much brighter future. We will have to make peace with each other eventually. We cannot wish each other away or place our hopes in breaking up the other. We need to stop living in the fantasy worlds of exploiting the secessionist movements in the other side. We need to truly see that the other side is also as human as we are. Continued confrontation would not lead to peace or prosperity in this region if you really think through the outcomes for BOTH countries.

As I said, the rest is just details.

 

[KALKI]

^^ Nice positive post that, mate, but India is moving and moving fast. It's now Pakistan that has to decide whether it wants to keep clutching onto straws or get on to the train and start moving with the rest of the world.

The train is leaving, even if Pakistan comes aboard and even if it doesn't.

...the train will leave.

 

[Meengla]

iRobot: A little modesty helps.

Actually, a greatly unstable Pakistan can be India's huge nightmare. Mumbai attack, I believe, did NOT have any official Pakistani involvement. Push too far and you will see many more. We Pakistanis don't think you are washed with milk as it is--if you get my drift.

An an antagonistic Pakistan, firmly allied with China, can prevent India's true potentials to be slowed down. The trade and energy routes to India's north would stay choked up too. Think of the losses.

One $60 million aircraft bought to check Pakistan means a huge amount of hard earned money going away from the hundreds of millions of abject poor inside India.

When some of us extend an olive branch it is not because of weakness--I think a post-American Afghanistan will be more damaging to India's interests. But I certainly don't want to go back to the days pre 9/11. Also, if a tiny nation like Sri Lanka can endure so much for over two decades and overcome that then so can Pakistan. Don't forget that barely 5 years ago Pakistan's economy was galloping--that can turn around again.

But we extend it as an opportunity because we see that there is no way around for both of our countries eventually and that it is better to make peace now than much later. There is a lot of introspection in Pakistan and I see that as an opportunity.

Attitudes like your's do not help.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

iRobot: A little modesty helps.

Actually, a greatly unstable Pakistan can be India's huge nightmare. Mumbai attack, I believe, did NOT have any official Pakistani involvement. Push too far and you will see many more. We Pakistanis don't think you are washed with milk as it is--if you get my drift.

An an antagonistic Pakistan, firmly allied with China, can prevent India's true potentials to be slowed down. The trade and energy routes to India's north would stay choked up too. Think of the losses.

One $60 million aircraft bought to check Pakistan means a huge amount of hard earned money going away from the hundreds of millions of abject poor inside India.

When some of us extend an olive branch it is not because of weakness--I think a post-American Afghanistan will be more damaging to India's interests. But I certainly don't want to go back to the days pre 9/11. Also, if a tiny nation like Sri Lanka can endure so much for over two decades and overcome that then so can Pakistan. Don't forget that barely 5 years ago Pakistan's economy was galloping--that can turn around again.

But we extend it as an opportunity because we see that there is no way around for both of our countries eventually and that it is better to make peace now than much later. There is a lot of introspection in Pakistan and I see that as an opportunity.

Attitudes like your's do not help.

Ludlum, I presume?

 

[RazorMC]

37 million bogus votes..So if manmohan singh government is corrupt then it means 2/3 votes of 1.22Billions people of India are bogus ?

Please read this article.

And this one.

MQM has been calling to convert the NADRA list into voters list since people who are 18+ have ID cards anyways and are eligible to vote.
So far, it has not been taken up.

 

[Developereo]

A realignment of Pakistani state's entire world outlook by making peace with India.

What on earth makes you think India wants to make peace? Right now India is attacking Pakistan on all fronts short of direct military action -- by economic, diplomatic and insurgent means.

A Pakistan that is strong economically, militarily and diplomatically is a nightmare for India because
a) it validates the partition of 1947 -- something which Indian nationalists have never come to terms with.
b) it hinders Indian hegemony in south Asia and beyond. India does not want to share the throne in south Asia -- make no mistake about it.

Certainly there are elements in India that would favor peace, but every indication is that India's rise is matched by rising nationalism within India. As for the view that 'brotherly' south Asians would hold hands around a campfire against the 'evil Westerners' is too naive for comment.

 

[Developereo]

The US will naturally promote those people and those Govts that suit their agenda.

USSR also has been in this mug's game.

And maybe even China.

Add India to the list.
I wouldn't put it past our feudal politicians to sell out to India for the right price.

Idiot Nawaaz Sharif is already singing the tune.

 

[Meengla]

@Developereo,
As I implied above, both India and Pakistan can fairly justly accuse each other of uncharitable acts.
However, we need to call each other's bluff. This 'wanting' or not wanting is just speculation. While I believe that militarily weakened but otherwise stable Pakistan may be India's preference I see absolutely no logic that greatly unstable Pakistan will help; in the latter case there would be nothing but horrific, repeated acts of terrorism inside BOTH countries.
My appeal to Indians is to not take Pakistan's predicament as a sign of weakness but take advantage of the fact that for the first time Pakistanis are more and more open to creative ideas to settle disputes and move on. Act like true big brothers. Pick up from where Musharraf-Manmohan left. I believe the region's problems will be greatly reduced then.

PS. I am against Western meddling in this region's affairs because, instinctively, I know that they can always cut and run without much fear of consequences for themselves we all are left behind to do the cleanup. But nowhere I use 'evil' as the term for them.

 

[gubbi]

While I believe that militarily weakened but otherwise stable Pakistan may be India's preference I see absolutely no logic that greatly unstable Pakistan will help; in the latter case there would be nothing but horrific, repeated acts of terrorism inside BOTH countries.
My appeal to Indians is to not take Pakistan's predicament as a sign of weakness but take advantage of the fact that for the first time Pakistanis are more and more open to creative ideas to settle disputes and move on. Act like true big brothers. Pick up from where Musharraf-Manmohan left. I believe the region's problems will be greatly reduced then.

PS. I am against Western meddling in this region's affairs because, instinctively, I know that they can always cut and run without much fear of consequences for themselves we all are left behind to do the cleanup. But nowhere I use 'evil' as the term for them.

For Pakistan to prosper and be stable, peace and good relations with India is the best bet. Contrary to what many in Pakistan think, India is and will remain Pakistan's safest and best friend. No amount of bridges with China or other countries is going to help Pakistan, unless it mends fences with India.

The only problem: anti-India mindset of the Pakistani establishment. That has to be done with. I agree with your Mush-MMS discussions to be the starting point for dialogue.

 

[KALKI]

It is US, thats the sole reason corruption started in Pakistan, offers were too high for selfish people to ignore..

Seriously, that's the stupidest explanation for corruption I've ever heard.

 

[Developereo]

India doesn't want an unstable Pakistan, but neither does it want a strong Pakistan that can resist its regional hegemony. The West is offering Pakistan's head to India as a goodwill gesture to secure its alliance against China. India, for its part, is trying to play the field and squeeze maximum benefit. But playing the field is a very very tricky business and is liable to blow up in the player's face.

It will be very interesting to see how all this develops...

 

[nForce]

@Developereo,
As I implied above, both India and Pakistan can fairly justly accuse each other of uncharitable acts.
However, we need to call each other's bluff. This 'wanting' or not wanting is just speculation. While I believe that militarily weakened but otherwise stable Pakistan may be India's preference I see absolutely no logic that greatly unstable Pakistan will help; in the latter case there would be nothing but horrific, repeated acts of terrorism inside BOTH countries.
My appeal to Indians is to not take Pakistan's predicament as a sign of weakness but take advantage of the fact that for the first time Pakistanis are more and more open to creative ideas to settle disputes and move on. Act like true big brothers. Pick up from where Musharraf-Manmohan left. I believe the region's problems will be greatly reduced then.

PS. I am against Western meddling in this region's affairs because, instinctively, I know that they can always cut and run without much fear of consequences for themselves we all are left behind to do the cleanup. But nowhere I use 'evil' as the term for them.

In a way you are actually suggesting to take advantage of the military weakness of Pakistan,for peace talks....

But then,what good will those talks will be?? What ever might be the talks about,it will not be able to change the status quo vis-a-vis Kashmir.Anyways,that part is best if it is left as it is.
Since the rise of Taliban inside Pakistan,there has been a significant drop in militant activities in Kashmir,and nowadays there is absolute peace in the valley without a single attack.Even the trade and tourism is increasing there.The home-grown problem of Pakistan alone has kept them so busy killing each other that India is not at the gun point any more.

I have every right to be selfish and think about my country,my home first over others.So tell me something,now that the present scenario suits us the most,why should we go for peace talks??There has been numerous peace talks before without any result.Bloody hell,Indian PM A.B.Vajpayee was attending a peace talk with Pakistani PM Nawaz Sharif when the Kargil fiasco was being planned.So that how all the talks ended.

Now,this Taliban issue threw Pakistan off balance,the economy started drying up ,the flow of fund lowered,differences came up and the focus changed.It virtually put an end to the insurgency problem that India was facing for 30 years.Keeping the previous track record in mind,I cannot help myself thinking that the moment Pakistan becomes stable and economically powerful again,all those activities will resume again.

So,its odd,but it comes out to be that,an unstable Pakistan is beneficial for the people of India.I would hate myself for wishing deterioration of some other country,but I just might have to do that,as for me ,my country comes first.

 

[Jade]

India doesn't want an unstable Pakistan, but neither does it want a strong Pakistan that can resist its regional hegemony. The West is offering Pakistan's head to India as a goodwill gesture to secure its alliance against China. India, for its part, is trying to play the field and squeeze maximum benefit. But playing the field is a very very tricky business and is liable to blow up in the player's face.

It will be very interesting to see how all this develops...

As gubbi said…India can be the only country that can contribute positively towards a strong Pakistan. Enmity with a country that is eight times Pakistan’s size can only weaken Pakistan. A stable and prosperous Pakistan is a strong Pakistan and is in India’s favour...or if you think a $50 billion defence budget is strong Pakistan, then I have nothing to say

As regarding regional hegemony, you have to see that from the India’s eyes. Being the biggest in South Asian region, it certainly doesn’t want China or any other country to meddle here. If that is what you call hegemony, then I cannot help.

 

[Meengla]

@nForce,
Thank you for a candid response.
I think you are dead wrong on Kashmir. You fail to completely discount that Kashmir may be peaceful because Pakistani state--sometime in 2004 or around--decided to leave Kashmir alone. That radical shift by Musharraf earned him much wrath inside Pakistan and one of the attacks against him was made by some alleged Kashmiris.
If you think the Pakistani state cannot again turn back the heat inside Kashmir then you are wrong. As it is, without active Pakistani help, Kashmir has flared up very recently. Imagine active Pakistani help.
Think from that angle and try to have a 'long view' of the entire situation. India has a very long border with Pakistan. A greatly unstable Pakistan will inevitably lead to horrendous terrorist attacks inside India, especially if it is established, via media, that Indians are causing attacks inside Pakistan.

I really wish your kind of myopic thinking is not Indian official policy. Pakistan is cursed with a tribal, violent, and backward Afghanistan. You don't want that next to you with 180 million people.

 

[Developereo]

As gubbi said…India can be the only country that can contribute positively towards a strong Pakistan. Enmity with a country that is eight times Pakistan’s size can only weaken Pakistan. A stable and prosperous Pakistan is a strong Pakistan and is in India’s favour...or if you think a $50 billion defence budget is strong Pakistan, then I have nothing to say

I never denied that making peace with India will be beneficial for Pakistan. I just question whether the gesture will be returned.
This is assuming that Kashmir can be resolved, which also seems unlikely.

As regarding regional hegemony, you have to see that from the India’s eyes. Being the biggest in South Asian region, it certainly doesn’t want China or any other country to meddle here. If that is what you call hegemony, then I cannot help.

If India can try to maintain equal relations with US and Russia, why can't other countries maintain equal relations with India and China?

NAM goes both ways.