Featured Time to bury the past and move forward: COAS Bajwa

[Raj-Hindustani]

The COAS, in the same speech, also very specifically pointed to how the Kashmir dispute remained the core issue preventing peace between India & Pakistan, and that India had to take the first steps to create an enabling environment for things to progress.

The problem is that some people, on both sides, have chosen to only look at the 'bury the past' comment out of context and ignore the part the COAS said about Kashmir being a core issue and India taking the first steps to create a conducive environment, in order to promote a particular narrative of Pakistan selling out Kashmir.

That said, Pakistan & India both realized a long time ago that neither side could take over the parts of J&K controlled by the other through military force. If anything, it is the Indian political leadership that has been issuing war-mongering statements of taking over Pakistan Administered Kashmir, whereas the Pakistani civilian and military leadership has talked of dialog and peaceful resolution of the dispute going back before Musharraf. And, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, Pakistani State material support for anti-Indian occupation militancy & freedom fighters was ended by Musharraf almost 2 decades ago.

India harping on so-called 'Pakistani support for terrorism' is just a blame-game copied out of the Israeli playbook - keep demonizing the Palestinians, keep them divided & weak, and use even minor local incidents to argue against a final resolution whilst continuing to expand settlements and taking over more and more Palestinian land that will never be returned when a peace agreement is finally reached.

Sir, due with all respect. I am agreed on many points but disagree on a few.

Two points:
1. Arm supply in Kashmir - if Pakistan ended the anti-Indian military them from where are they getting AK 47, RDX, grenades, and bulletproof jackects etc?

Is there any manufacturing happening in Kashmir, Ans - NO..... Then, from where?


2. What about giving false hope to the youth of Kashmir- This is the biggest crime in my eyes. If anyone gives false hope to young Kashmiri that they will able to succeed by doing arm struggle then actually at the present situation " He is the biggest enemy of him and his family.

Who is dying?
Ans - A common Kashmiri.

Who is Suffering?
Ans - Family of a Kashmiri who has died.

Who is responsible?
Ans - Pakistan, and India. Pakistan giving false hope and India is killing false hope.

Do you really think that they will get freedom by doing arm struggle? Ans is simply - "NO"

But, it suits Pakistan that the situation will remain the same in Kashmir and the status quote will never be changed. If Kashmiri will live peacefully then " What will happen to - Kashmir Banega Pakistan"?

To be honest, If I was living in Kashmir and life was getting disturbed because of amry around to me then most properly I was also talking against the army and India.

No one wants disturbed life and wants only peaceful life with our family.
............

Final words - I strongly believe that it is all about hopes. Khalichistan movement started when there was false hope. once false hope ended in the 1990s then everything back to normal. It is just not about India but applies in Pakistan and any other country.

If Punjabi, Christians, and Muslims in Hyderabad and other many areas (state/city) can live peacefully then why not in kashmir?
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To me - if anyone says from Pakistan that time to bury the past and move forward then " it is about forgetting Kashmir and if not then " Sentence does not make any sense".

 

[VkdIndian]

Really? And what exactly was Vajpayee going to offer tangibly on Kashmir to lead to the resolution of the dispute?

There was a solution worked out apparently. The exact details are not known in great detail though. But it was a step in the right direction. One step atleast that would have started the process. This problem can’t be resolved in one go. If Pakistan hopes that India would offer Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan then people can keep dreaming. I don’t see it happening.

J&K is not Balochistan or Indian Punjab - it is recognized as disputed territory internationally with UNSC Resolutions on it, UNSC Resolutions that both States committed to.

As I said earlier, the situation changed the day Shimla agreement was signed. That’s how UN has gone out of the equation. Additionally, UN resolutions are not the only benchmarks for deciding a catastrophe or or human tragedy. UN resolutions are the pawn of the superpowers used as per their convenience.

J&K to choose their destiny via plebiscite

There were certain conditions for holding this plebiscite. The first one was complete and unconditional withdrawal of Pakistani forces. Pakistan never did it. Had Pakistan followed its own end of bargain then the story might have been totally different today. And then Shimla happened which changed the situation completely wherein UN resolution went out of the window.

Whatever anyone may say - Today, India is not going to allow UN or any other country’s intervention in this matter.

Govt of India rushed its military to protect the genocidal Hindu dictator against his revolting people.

Genocide stopped as soon as Indian forces reached Kashmir. So India stopped the genocide and not propagated it as indicated by you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There was a solution worked out apparently. The exact details are not known in great detail though. But it was a step in the right direction. One step atleast that would have started the process. This problem can’t be resolved in one go. If Pakistan hopes that India would offer Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan then people can keep dreaming. I don’t see it happening.

I wasn't saying that it was a resolution in one step - but what were the steps? You say they were significant, but even small steps have to build towards a broader goal. Without defining that broader end-goal, what's the point of outlining 'small steps'?

For example, lets take the Indian position of an 'end to terrorism'. That's one step, then what? Is the final goal a UN led plebiscite?

As I said earlier, the situation changed the day Shimla agreement was signed. That’s how UN has gone out of the equation. Additionally, UN resolutions are not the only benchmarks for deciding a catastrophe or or human tragedy. UN resolutions are the pawn of the superpowers used as per their convenience.

And as I responded to your comment earlier - that's hogwash. Nothing in Simla overrides the UNSC Resolutions. Simla reiterates the commitment of both countries to the UN Charter and therefore to the UNSC Resolutions, which are a 'peaceful means of dispute resolution'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There were certain conditions for holding this plebiscite. The first one was complete and unconditional withdrawal of Pakistani forces. Pakistan never did it. Had Pakistan followed its own end of bargain then the story might have been totally different today.

There are multiple UNSC Resolutions. They do not call for a unilateral and unconditional Pakistan withdrawal. This is borne out by the fact that the UN organized multiple rounds of negotiations between a UN appointed rapporteur, India & Pakistan to negotiate the specifics of demilitarization and all 3 participated in almost all those negotiations.

 

[colonel rajesh]

India does not have the balls to do the surgical strike on Pakistan. To please their local audience, they create these Bollywood style stories. Even Bombay attack was a false flag operation Planned and executed by RAW.
Pulwama attack was also inside job. It was planned to benefit Modi government and put pressure on Pakistan. Attempted air strike on Kashmir in 2019 was actually planned with help from France and Israel but Indian pilots got scared and dropped their load in their pants, lost 2 planes, one helicopter, drank Fantastic tea and went back.

kargil was also inside job..............

 

[Valiant]

No the height of hypocrisy and victimhood is a Pakistani crying about Hindutva's Dharam khatre mein when his own nation was borne out of Islam khatre mein.

Cheers, Doc

The Pakistani state isn't responsible for countless massacres. The Indian Brahmin monstrosity is. Cope with the facts

 

[jupiter2007]

kargil was also inside job..............

Pakistan would have joked India but Nawaz Sharif was a puppet PM got scared of USA.

 

[VkdIndian]

There are multiple UNSC Resolutions. They do not call for a unilateral and unconditional Pakistan withdrawal.

Before we proceed further on this discussion - one clarification.

Do you think that in this entire Kashmir issue vis a vis UN resolutions Pakistan has been always fair? And that it has been India that has played dirty? Or is it that Pakistan also faltered some where or failed on its promise anywhere?

No point in going further without getting this clear.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

I am so glad you keep on spinning new narratives with every passing day. While it is well established and documented that Indian jets penetrated deep inside Pakistani state and yet, you claim they hardly ingressed. Well your hesitant approach to admitting a simple yet well known fact tells the world how awkward and hurtful this is for you. And oh yes,...you can call us the story spinners as a reply to this..while you enjoy the liberty of starting with a lie in your very first line that IAF hardly Ingressed. Rest about personal attack wrt Modi...let me reiterate, proudly, that I am not his fan, but hey he is still our PM and I enjoy seeing you go down on a lower level as a commentor by using personal attacks when some someone shares an opinion. Again, let me sign off by saying, my point here started with Pakistan asking for peace dialogue... so deny as much you want, we know when a military really feels powerful, then it's military chief, especially it's Military Chief, never makes such statements. As for us, we are sorted with our part of Kashmir. If you think it doesn't matter to you then you should have seen the reaction of your PMIK. He doesn't seem to be happy with our change of plan in Indian Kashmir. Anyway let us Indians as of now focus on Azad Kashmir

You have comprehension issues - Pakistan debunked Indian lies & propaganda about surgical strikes by taking the media and foreign diplomats to the alleged locations of the strikes to prove it was all hogwash.

You can spin it however you like, but here are the facts. The IAF barely ingressed (if it ingressed at all and did not launch the weapons from across the LoC) to avoid being engaged by PAF CAP's, and even then blew the op (whether hurried out of fear of interception, poor training, whatever) only damaging a few trees, rocks and the now infamous crow. You lot have been running around like chickens with your heads cut off trying to come up with the most absurd reasons to prove that 'damage occurred in the compound and people were killed', and in the process have become a laughing stock even in front of many of your foreign supporters and allies.

The PAF shot down an IAF fighter, captured an IAF pilot and the Indian military in its panicked response shot down its own chopper killing all on board.

I mean, the fact that you lot not only try to defend this pathetic display, but also use it to polish Modi's rear end to try and make it shine like the sun, is an illustration of the complete lack of shame you've developed.

And you can talk about whatever you want, we already know you're a deluded, hate-mongering, petty and insecure nation obsessed with Pakistan, but that doesn't change the reality that Jammu & Kashmir is disputed territory, recognized as disputed by the UN and the rest of the world, and has UNSC Resolutions outlining the means of resolution, committed to by both India and Pakistan.

 

[Vapnope]

now focus on Azad Kashmir

Focus is saving your land in Gogra, hot spring and Kailash range however you are welcome to try your adventure in AJk. We all understand that it is a stalemate between India and Pakistan and statements from COAS have a background to it. Both countries have invested a lot in proxies that burying the past isn't going to happen at least not by incumbent governments.

 

[xyx007]

This is india whose PM accepted again indian involvement in dismemberment of pakistan and their army cheif back stabbed at us. Should we burry the past? No, Good we tested our missile that day and give our message loud and clear.

LoC silent in March; terror infrastructure in Pakistan remains intact: Army Chief Gen MM Naravane

NEW DELHI: Indian Army Chief General MM Naravane has evinced hope that the ceasefire reiteration at the Line of Control with Pakistan will stay. The reason bein

www.newindianexpress.com

 

[LightUponLight]

What kind of 'hard decisions' would you like to see? Please explain.

We'll agree with your position that the UN has lost credibility when India formally leaves the UN.

Until then, the UNSC resolutions on the disputed territory of J&K remain valid and India continues to violate them as a rogue member of the international community by refusing to allow the Kashmiris the right to self-determination.

1.) Tit for tat attacks when Indian-sponsored terrorist groups strike in Pakistan.

2.) A robust clandestine offensive capability in IOK to help free the valley's inhabitants from an illegal and draconian occupation.

3.) I'm sure you're smart enough to understand the concept of deterrence --- what tools the Pakistan have to deter India from supporting terror in Pakistan? How are we striking fear into the hearts of R&AW agents who actively cause attacks in Pakistan? Where is the fear of consequences? How are we raising the cost for the Indian Hindutva establishment (Doval, etc.)? The answers are scarily insufficient. Therefore, hard decisions are necessary to go on the offensive without any conventional action/war.

Deterrence = peace.

Words without hard decisions /= peace

 

[Salik]

Akhand Bharat is reality and it is happening. Hindus are building temples all over the world. Even in Pakistan ancient temples are being restored. This is happening of Akhand Bharat and it covers all of the planet.


Islam is objective based religion. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him came to this world with an objective of delivering the message. When this objective was achieved he left the world even though he had the option to stay here.

Creation of Pakistan had objective of assuring certain rights for the Muslims of this region. If Muslims of Bangladesh, India and Pakistan reach the equilibrium of socioeconomic and political prosperity that will be the time of fulfillment of objective of creation of Pakistan. At this moment Pakistan would be expected to react differently upon certain issues and conflicts. So Pakistan should keep that point of time in consciousness and set the momentum of dealing with others accordingly.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Pakistan never has anything to do with supporting any insurgent groups in India for the last 60 years,
But by some strange twist of fate somehow becomes receiving end of its consequences

We do supported one in J&K.Unfortunately an idiot rolled it back resulting in massive Bharati good will in form of supporting TTP and BLA.

 

[El Sidd]

Will the government prosecute the people not willing or able to bury the past?