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Featured Time to bury the past and move forward: COAS Bajwa

Second, the demographic impact of the Kashmir pandit exodus is minimal compared to the demographic impact of the genocide carried out by the Maharaja - almost 200,000 muslims were massacred and many more chased out, events that were part of the trigger behind the tribal invasion in 1947. When you look at the demographic impact of not just those killed or chased out, but the subsequent generations that would have been born and raised and multiplied in J&K since 1947, the impact of the Kashmir pandit exodus pales in comparison.
Seems incorrect to me. The percentage as well as total population of Muslims has increased in J&K since independence.


As far as massacre figures are considered, they also seem to be incorrect.


Moreover, massacre happened for both- Hindus as well as Muslims. It was indeed a heinous act but India Govt was not a party to it. In fact, it stopped after the arrival of Indian forces.
 
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Seems incorrect to me. The percentage as wel as total population of Muslims has increased in J&K since independence.


As far as massacre figures are considered, they also seem to be incorrect.


Moreover, massacre happened for both- Hindus as well as Muslims. It was indeed a heinous act but India Govt was not a party to it. In fact, it stopped after the arrival of Indian forces.
Different sources put the numbers of Muslims massacred over 200,000.

The numbers of Hindus/Sikhs allegedly killed in those events is significantly smaller.

But, as I have pointed out on this topic before as well, instead of getting bogged down in arguing numbers, lets agree that between the the 1947 massacres & exodus of Muslims by the Maharaja and the massacres & exodus of non-Muslims (pandits included), the demographic impact of Muslims and non-Muslims is balanced out. Point being, Indians need to stop using the Kashmiri pandit exodus as an excuse against holding a plebiscite.
 
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NSA Moeed Yusuf clarification of what the COAS said:

“1. Core interest - kashmir
2. Bury the past - other differences between the two countries.
3. Prerequisite for forward talks - reverse the 5 August unilateral actions.
4. Kashmir solution - as per UN resolutions.
5. No compromise - on both kashmr issue n the comprehensive securty”

@HRK
@Air Wolf
@Vortex


This guy has no standing. Nobody listens to him. One thing is certain that establishment has sensed that majority of the people are not siding with what COAS said and they are not happy. So, they sent this nobody to do some damage control but it won't work.

It's quite apparent that Pakistan didn't wanted to do this kiss and make up with India but is being forced by US. Question is why we are even accepting this pressure when we have clearly picked our side, which is China.

Just for $6 Billion IMF program we are willing to help US reconstruct ugly, evil, fascist, face of modi and his hindutva brigade . Damn....what a disgrace. Just count the tweets Imran Khan has done against modi. How can he face himself. I guess this thing called self respect only happens to be found in commoners like us. Elites are devoid of it.
 
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We haven't looked into J&K when it comes to arming locals for past 20 years.Ask any IA vet who served their in late 90's he would tell you what it looks likes.
Pakistan never has anything to do with supporting any insurgent groups in India for the last 60 years,
But by some strange twist of fate somehow becomes receiving end of its consequences
The perception is that the biggest losers in a peace deal would be the Kashmiris, as they fear Pakistan abandoning their struggle.
Could be, will have to wait and see GOI response
 
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This guy has no standing. Nobody listens to him. One thing is certain that establishment has sensed that majority of the people are not siding with what COAS said and they are not happy. So, they sent this nobody to do some damage control but it won't work.

It's quite apparent that Pakistan didn't wanted to do this kiss and make up with India but is being forced by US. Question is why we are even accepting this pressure when we have clearly picked our side, which is China.

Just for $6 Billion IMF program we are willing to help US reconstruct ugly, evil, fascist, face of modi and his hindutva brigade . Damn....what a disgrace. Just count the tweets Imran Khan has done against modi. How can he face himself. I guess this thing called self respect only happens to be found in commoners like us. Elites are devoid of it.
If Pakistan takes significant TANGIBLE steps towards normalization of the relationship with India, without India reversing any of the steps it took in IoK since August 5th, I'll agree with you.

For now, all we have is a lot of noise around a very nuanced speech by the COAS and whether you like it or not, Moeed Yusuf taking as clear of a position as he did, and doing so as Special Advisor to the Prime Minister on National Security, means that the COAS is either on board with the NSA, or has been shown his place.

One thing you have to remember is that the Army cannot function without public support and it simply cannot take a decision like this on J&K unilaterally without the political parties getting on board, not without imposing Martial Law, and even then they might as well say goodbye to their influence and popularity in Pakistan for generations to come.
The perception is that the biggest losers in a peace deal would be the Kashmiris, as they fear Pakistan abandoning their struggle.
And in my view that's the goal behind all this noise.

I don't see any tangible change or significant movement towards normalization. COAS said India needs to take the first steps in J&K, NSA expanded on that and was even more specific on what those next steps should be, and I simply do not see Modi changing anything.

Modi isn't a statesman, he is a hardcore ideologue who has leveraged hate, fear, war-mongering & religious nationalism to strengthen his hold on power, and he has been rewarded for that by the Indian electorate. In fact, given the success of his hate, war & bigotry laced policies, why would Modi the politician even want to change the formula that brought him success?
 
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So many Pakistanis dont want to accept what COAS said, but those same people are also asking Palestinians to "forget the issue with ISrael" and make peace...now they see its not so easy..
 
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Point being, Indians need to stop using the Kashmiri pandit exodus as an excuse against holding a plebiscite.
No, it is an important factor and can’t be ignored. People who lost life at the time of partition and those who were hounded out later are two different events and can’t be linked together.

Anyways, plebiscite is not something that India would hold. India and Pakistan decided to resolve all bilateral issues though dialogue as per Simla agreement. Hence, all past resolution became null and void after Simla. That’s why India stopped UN observers after that agreement since it reset the entire mechanism of conflict resolution. From UN brokered issue it became a matter to be resolved bilaterally.

Moreover - If every ethic or religious element in India starts asking for a separate nation then it can cause a problem. That can’t be the criteria for a separation. These elements can come and sit across a table and discuss what is their problem and a solution would be worked out within the bounds of Indian constitution.

Picking up a gun wouldn’t work out.

I am sure that Pakistan also wouldn’t allow anything like this in Balochistan or any other Pakistani territory where such a movement is on.
If Pakistan takes significant TANGIBLE steps towards normalization of the relationship with India,
I guess that was about to happen when Musharraf decided Kargil. Vajpayee had put everything at stake for that deal. It would be difficult to believe the establishment ever again.
 
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No, it is an important factor and can’t be ignored. People who lost life at the time of partition and those who were hounded out later are two different events and can’t be linked together.
Its just as important a factor as the hundreds of thousands of Muslims massacred and hounded out of J&K by the Maharajah.

You can't pick and choose which communities demographic impact should count and which one shouldn't. They were all residents of the State and they were all forced out or killed.
 
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Pakistan has a fundamental policy towards peaceful coexistence. The policy remains unchanged from the framework laid by the founding fathers to aspire for peace with nations of the world and beyond.

Only the brave and strong offer peace. Terms of peace are always dictated by human rights and mutual respect.

India must take this opportunity to take the highway of peace in Kashmir and to play her rightful part as a mature nation state.
 
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Anyways, plebiscite is not something that India would hold. India and Pakistan decided to resolve all bilateral issues though dialogue as per Simla agreement. Hence, all past resolution became null and void after Simla. That’s why India stopped UN observers after that agreement since it reset the entire mechanism of conflict resolution. From UN brokered issue it became a matter to be resolved bilaterally.
Shimla in no way overrides the UNSC Resolutions on J&K. Shimla in fact reiterates the commitment of both States to the UN Charter, and therefore the UNSC Resolutions both States committed to.
I guess that was about to happen when Musharraf decided Kargil. Vajpayee had put everything at stake for that deal. It would be difficult to believe the establishment ever again.
Really? And what exactly was Vajpayee going to offer tangibly on Kashmir to lead to the resolution of the dispute?
Moreover - If every ethic or religious element in India starts asking for a separate nation then it can cause a problem. That can’t be the criteria for a separation. These elements can come and sit across a table and discuss what is their problem and a solution would be worked out within the bounds of Indian constitution.

Picking up a gun wouldn’t work out.

I am sure that Pakistan also wouldn’t allow anything like this in Balochistan or any other Pakistani territory where such a movement is on.
J&K is not Balochistan or Indian Punjab - it is recognized as disputed territory internationally with UNSC Resolutions on it, UNSC Resolutions that both States committed to.

This is yet another poor excuse, like the Hindu Pandit exodus excuse, by India to avoid resolving the J&K dispute in accordance with the UNSC Resolutions, by letting the PEOPLE of J&K to choose their destiny via plebiscite, the only democratic, moral, ethical and legal means of resolving the dispute.
 
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Its just as important a factor as the hundreds of thousands of Muslims massacred and hounded out of J&K by the Maharajah.
I agree with you.

I am just saying that these were events that occurred at different times and can’t be clubbed together. Massacre in 1947 can’t be used as a justification for forcing out pandits from the valley. First event can’t be reversed but second event can be.

I do say that both were heinous acts and deplorable.

Shimla in no way overrides the UNSC Resolutions on J&K. Shimla in fact reiterates the commitment of both States to the UN Charter,
No Sir, Shimla agreement talks of UN charter and not UN resolution. Resolution was a specific order for a specific action. India doesn’t accept that anymore.
UN charter yes. India accepts that and has never said no to it.
 
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