Tilt Rotors And Their Potential For PakMil

[Basel]

Hoe can such a small aircraft be a MPA or AWACS?

You don't need large AWACS or MPAs all the time, tech is getting better and smaller in size too, now UAV's are coming in those role.

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1199

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/belleagleeyeuav/

 

[Trailer23]

what do you think?

The dimensions suggest its too small. Looks like a LearJet that can house 6 Persons in the Cabin. What kind/type of roll would either of the Pakistan Armed Forces get out of it.

The V-22 Osprey is a beast. I've seen a number of them.

I just think that its expensive & wouldn't really serve us well.

Someone mentioned the price tag of $ US 25-30 Million. A M-346, at fly away costs $ US 25 Million.

 

[Path-Finder]

The dimensions suggest its too small. Looks like a LearJet that can house 6 Persons in the Cabin. What kind/type of roll would either of the Pakistan Armed Forces get out of it.

The V-22 Osprey is a beast. I've seen a number of them.

I just think that its expensive & wouldn't really serve us well.

Someone mentioned the price tag of $ US 25-30 Million. A M-346, at fly away costs $ US 25 Million.

I am for the whole tiltrotor as a platform not just an individual product. The benefits of tiltrotor in naval application's, land forces utility and special operation. not to mention EW SAR etc means that future has a very strong role for tiltrotor crafts as it can compensate the shortcomings of contemporary helicopters.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

When the gora will have already achieved those landmarks THEN your eyes will be opened.

Jab gora ye sab kar le ga phir tum logo ki ankhen khule gi....ooh acha aise bhi ho sakta hai. Bhir sikorski, bell aur US Congress se bheek mango ge. Why not think for ourselves? If they haven't done it maybe we can be the pioneers? Little by little, piece by piece even if we are low on resources. Throw in a JV with TAI or Italians for good measure. Like we did with JF17. And now Masha Allah PAC is dreaming big dreams with newly gained lessons, ideas and with them came new confidence(hence name azm)

Kuch socho to sahi. Don't just sit in afsar mode.

Hoe can such a small aircraft be a MPA or AWACS?

The dimensions suggest its too small. Looks like a LearJet that can house 6 Persons in the Cabin. What kind/type of roll would either of the Pakistan Armed Forces get out of it.

The V-22 Osprey is a beast. I've seen a number of them.

I just think that its expensive & wouldn't really serve us well.

Someone mentioned the price tag of $ US 25-30 Million. A M-346, at fly away costs $ US 25 Million.

It's barely a prototype at this stage. Do you even remember what JF17 was in it's early years??

Chinese only aspired to make a jet that had only a few puny upgrades over their J7/Mig21s that's it. PAC pushed them to make a product that closely resembled F16 in performance and appearance. Listen to AM Shahid Latif's interviews with various youtube journos.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17s-various-initial-design-phases-design-resemblances.297591/

Prototypes can be configured differently. There is still time.

If we inducted this or a different tiltrotor wouldn't it make conventional helos redundant? If we have a tiltrotor that can potentially fill shoes of Mi17/Blackhawk/NH90 class of helo and maybe partially take on role of C130/CN295 class of cargo/utility plane. It could potentially streamline logistical chain of PakMil and other militaries as well.

What if in the future helo giants like bell, sikorsky and Leonardo/AW come up with tiltrotor designs that can phase out the traditional UH1/412/AW139/EC125 small utility class of helicopter. Hence making tilt rotors the new normal within the helo industry? We already have seen such an example years ago in the movie Avatar.
Once again these are some VERY wild ideas I'm throwing out there.

But I also believe AvRID or Kamra aviation city should be for this very reason to test out wild ideas, to ponder where the future of aviation lies in Pakistan and the world(eventual aim should be to become the pioneers potentially even replacing NASA or Roscosmos).

Avatar small utility/scout tiltrotor example.

 

[Trailer23]

@Ahmet Pasha

The conversations seems to have shifted. Are you suggesting we start building 'em (PAC) or just buying them?

It all comes down to money, & the need/requirement.

I personally think that the PAC already has a lot on their plate for the next 2 decades with Deliveries of JF-17 & Super Mushak's to the PAF and the current/future customers.

They're also busy with Project AZM.

I sincerely doubt that PAF/PAC have the funds and technical know how of Tiltrotar Aircrafts.

Buying it from Leonardo..., that's a different conversation, altogether.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Conversations are fluid that way.

I believe PAC/AvRID/Kamra city and other institutions like HIT, POF and KSEW are far more importnat than just "buying them". If we "just buy them" then the benefits will just be limited to the particular service branch that acquires that specific platform. And forex will keep going to those vendors in form of upkeep, spare parts etc along with some 3rd party sub contractors who might get involved for training/logistics etc.

But if we truely succeed in establishing an institution that starts with the core belief that the "future is now" then that institution will not only yield far reaching benefits for the nation's unemployed but very talented youth and general insdustrial-technological base of the country. But said institution might even emerge as a leader, a pioneer in world aviation.

Ingenuity this is lacking. Ingenuity ka fuqdan hai.

We south asians have been tricked into believing that until the gora won't do something we won't be able to either.

But our visionary founding father said khudi na bech ghareebi mein naam paida kar.

JF17 already fills us with pride bcz we don't have to beg LM or US congress for a workhorse jet.

Look at Iran they are slammed with sanctions left right and center. Still they improvise and piece together whatever equipment/resources/know how they have to create relatively ok indigenous defence products. Point is they are trying. Surely we can do better than Iran. Surely we have better partners, better routes available than Iran.

@Ahmet Pasha

The conversations seems to have shifted. Are you suggesting we start building 'em (PAC) or just buying them?

It all comes down to money, & the need/requirement.

I personally think that the PAC already has a lot on their plate for the next 2 decades with Deliveries of JF-17 & Super Mushak's to the PAF and the current/future customers.

They're also busy with Project AZM.

I sincerely doubt that PAF/PAC have the funds and technical know how of Tiltrotar Aircrafts.

Buying it from Leonardo..., that's a different conversation, altogether.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

The dimensions suggest its too small. Looks like a LearJet that can house 6 Persons in the Cabin. What kind/type of roll would either of the Pakistan Armed Forces get out of it.

The V-22 Osprey is a beast. I've seen a number of them.

I just think that its expensive & wouldn't really serve us well.

Someone mentioned the price tag of $ US 25-30 Million. A M-346, at fly away costs $ US 25 Million.

Don't forget the V280 Valor

 

[HassanCheema]

Ospreys are still struggling in Japan.
Nightmare to maintain.

 

[Trailer23]

Don't forget the V280 Valor

Basically, Bell is the one that has produced most of the Tilrotors to date.

Even the Leonardo AW609 was formally called the Bell/Agusta BA609. Agusta Westland later on became Leonardo.

I doubt Agusta Aerospace/Agusta Wesland/Leonardo would've been able to achieve this on their own.

@Ahmet Pasha - I'm not sure if Tiltrotor is possible for PAC, as we haven't even been through the basics of building a conventional rotorcraft (Helicopter/Chopper). Skipping a step would be a disaster in the making - and the investment would be flushed down the toilet.

If PAC were to (first) invest in Rotorcrafts, they'd be useful overall. PAC could also sell 'em commercially within Pakistan & for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Who's to say, a couple of decades later we too might be able to produce something similar to the Bell AH-1Z Viper.

 

[araz]

Basically, Bell is the one that has produced most of the Tilrotors to date.

Even the Leonardo AW609 was formally called the Bell/Agusta BA609. Agusta Westland later on became Leonardo.

I doubt Agusta Aerospace/Agusta Wesland/Leonardo would've been able to achieve this on their own.

@Ahmet Pasha - I'm not sure if Tiltrotor is possible for PAC, as we haven't even been through the basics of building a conventional rotorcraft (Helicopter/Chopper). Skipping a step would be a disaster in the making - and the investment would be flushed down the toilet.

If PAC were to (first) invest in Rotorcrafts, they'd be useful overall. PAC could also sell 'em commercially within Pakistan & for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Who's to say, a couple of decades later we too might be able to produce something similar to the Bell AH-1Z Viper.

I fully agree with this post. Without having first built rotor crafts we should not venture out too much. First achieve proficiency in this field starting from basics then move on to bigger and better.
A

 

[Trailer23]

Like it or not, but the HAL Dhurv seems like a half decent Helicopter that is serving the Indian Armed Forces (all 3) & has had success in Foreign Sales as well.

This is where we need to excel. China may be the safest option, but its certainly not the only option if Pakistan were to look elsewhere for a joint venture.

We could partner up with South Africa or Brazil.

HAL Dhurv​

 

[echo 1]

Like it or not, but the HAL Dhurv seems like a half decent Helicopter that is serving the Indian Armed Forces (all 3) & has had success in Foreign Sales as well.

This is where we need to excel. China may be the safest option, but its certainly not the only option if Pakistan were to look elsewhere for a joint venture.

We could partner up with South Africa or Brazil.

HAL Dhurv​

Considering Pakistan having the Mi-35E would we really need anything like this? Mi-35 could perform all the roles the Dhurv can. The only issue I think it might have is high altitude delivery of supplies. We could potentially buy more. This would also prevent logistical issues with having too many helicopter platforms.

On the other hand if the Armed forces of Pakistan do decide to go for another type of helicopter then the W-3PL and its variants is not a bad idea. Like the HAL Dhurv it is a multi-roll helicopter and best part is the Polish manufactures have teamed up with Leonardo of Italy.

Polish Armed Variant

I believe this one is the Polish National Guard Search and Rescue

Philippians Military utility Helicopter

Algeria

• Algerian Air Force[29]

Czech Air Force PZL W-3A, SAR version

Chile

• Corporación Nacional Forestal[30][31]

Czech Republic

• Czech Air Force[29]

Myanmar

• Myanmar Air Force[29]

Philippines

• Philippine Air Force[29]

Poland

• Polish Air Force[29]
• Polish Border Guard[32]
• Polish Land Forces[29]
• Polish Navy[29]
• Polish Police[33]

A Philippine Air Force W-3A Sokol on combat helicopter paint scheme before transferring to search and rescue role.

South Korea

• Fire Department of Choong Nam[34]

Uganda

• Uganda National Police (1 on order)[35]

Former operators

Germany

• Landespolizei[34][36])

Portugal

• Helibravo Aviação[34]

United Arab Emirates

• Police of Ras Al-Khaimah[34]

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Like it or not, but the HAL Dhurv seems like a half decent Helicopter that is serving the Indian Armed Forces (all 3) & has had success in Foreign Sales as well.

This is where we need to excel. China may be the safest option, but its certainly not the only option if Pakistan were to look elsewhere for a joint venture.

We could partner up with South Africa or Brazil.

HAL Dhurv​

India took the initiative by developing its own utility helicopter, which it then re-adapted into a near 6-ton attack helicopter. So, the combined scale of the core platform (i.e., engine, dynamic parts, etc) for the Dhruv and LCH should probably reach 500. We can expect them to develop upgraded variants too.

I honestly wish Pakistan had tried something similar as a joint-venture with the Chinese around the time we went with the JF-17 (perhaps the Z-9 and Z-19 combination). It might have been more realistic than going it alone.

Today, our most feasible option would be joining someone with a project already, so either the Chinese (if they're open to partners) or the Turks, since they've invited us to the T625 utility helicopter (which can translate over to the T629 attack helicopter). Like the Dhruv/LCH, the T625/629 will use the same engine and transmission.

South Africa and Brazil are unlikely. I would love for us to pick up the Rooivalk Mk2 and somehow rope in Airbus and its H225m Caracal, and so on. However, as it stands today, the Turks have extended us an offer, so if there is a chance of us pursuing a helicopter program, it would be with the Turks or Chinese.

 

[Pandora]

We need to build a Military which is effective not just with bunch of fancy looking helos. Tilt Rotors are a logistic and maintenance nightmare as evident by lack of interest by EU and other Nato countries. Problem with tilt rotors is that they have too many moving parts including its core components i.e. Rotors which causes wear and tear hence need regular maintenance.

 

[GriffinsRule]

We need to build a Military which is effective not just with bunch of fancy looking helos. Tilt Rotors are a logistic and maintenance nightmare as evident by lack of interest by EU and other Nato countries. Problem with tilt rotors is that they have too many moving parts including its core components i.e. Rotors which causes wear and tear hence need regular maintenance.

Agreed. Secondly, tiltrotors were developed to support a particular military doctrine as the US armed forces find themselves in the expeditionary role, that is fighting away from the home country and established bases. Pakistan does not have that requirement or need. We need helos with low operating costs as well as ease of maintenance in the field as our forces are not at the same technical level as other advanced countries.