Tianenmen Square Incident

[ChineseTiger1986]

With these stuffs, there is no way that they can get any support in China.

 

[hans]

I would agree some of your points..
These guys killed are mostly diehard who focus on seizing political power rather than practical improvement.
Yet this incident also lead to CCP distrust on people.
CCP used to trust people and people trust on CCP in 1980s.
And this incident ended the mutual trust between people and CCP.
CCP start to do what it want. People have no rights to say yes or no.
Though CCP achieve great economy growth, they do not care much about people opinion.
CCP know clearly what people think and what people want, yet there is hardly any communication.

Nah, the political reform is an ongoing process. It still continues today. Heck, about 20% of the news from CCTV-1 everyday is on internal reforms and issues.

However, what June 4th did was the end of radical revolutions. Ever since 1949, China has been going through rapid social and political changes. From the initial five year plans in the 50s and 60s, to the culture revolution from mid-60s to 70s, to economic reforms from mid-70s to 80s. China has been changing at a break neck pace. June the 4th is the when the Chinese leaders finally said that "Okay, we are going way too fast, time to slow down and consolidate". Indeed, the entire 90s period is a time of consolidation, both in political policy and economic reform.

The event at Tiananmen square itself is actually not that complicated at all. It goes something like this:

1. Prelude: rapid economic development in the 80s created a wealth divide among the Chinese population. While it is nothing noteworthy by American or Indian standards, the Chinese who had much less wealth gap previously, was surprised by it. Mind set changes and coupled with the fact that the associate structure of governance did not develop fast enough to keep up with the economic development, corruption and other issues become serious. (Again, not at a level that is noteworthy comparing to US and India standard, but again that was kinda new for the Chinese)

2. Build-up: In typical fashion of that time, people gets into a revolutionary high and attempted to solve the problem via rapid, drastic change in political structure. Not realizing problem with corruption and wealth inequality is a much more long term problem than issues like foreign invasion, hunger, lack of infrastructure or disease. The latter problems had been the main issue for PRC. These issues are "simple", because they have a clear solution and an end in sight, you just need to get from point A to point B in a straight forward manner and overcome the obstacles in the way. The former, like corruption and wealth inequality, are like much less straight forward and isn't something that can be solved through a large drastic change. However, they say hindsight is 20/20. Most of the students at that time, as typical of young people with little experience in politics or world in general, do not have the slightest idea. To be fair, a lot of people in Chinese government itself doesn't understand this either. In hindsight it make sense. A lot of these people were originally down to earth farmers and workers, not from political families that have been bathed in court intrigues for generations.
So, the students were ferried by the Chinese government itself to Beijing. To listen to student's ideas for change.

3. Stalemate: The students were enthusiastic. Why would they? They were young and idealist. They absorb information much faster than the older generation and not boggled down by tradition. Of course, this is a very flattering way of describing them. A more realistic description would they had good intention and some idea on what is right and what is wrong, but they are inexperience, gullible and can't see through the complex maze of politic even with a guide and a map. They did provide a lot of ideas, but most of them simply makes the older and more experienced adults frown and goes ""Were you drunk when you come up with this? Have you thought about the consequences?" Some of the especially stupid and hilarious idea include giving a group of student about 20 year old political power and make them the equal to CCP. To put in perspective, Clinton was one of the youngest president of United States because he was 47. Kim Jong Un, who inherited the position in a dynastic North Korea was 28 when he took office. So when these students about 2/3 of the age of a Kim Jong Un proposed that they took power of China, the Chinese government officials, who were thankfully sane, shotdown the idea as ridicules.
Of course, this was after the Chinese government had agreed on various reforms for five different times in the negotiation, but you know young people, they can get pretty greedy if they can have their way. So each time they will increase the demand, until finally they reached the point of openly demanding power and Chinese government have to shot down their demand.

4. Escalate: Now, if things died down at this point, it will be a rather quiet event. Students will go home with tail between their legs and many decades later when they recall this, they gonna have a laugh about the naivete of their youth. Chinese government will probably implement some of the reforms, some will succeed and some may fail. Everyone goes on with their business. However, in that particular event, something else is at work. Many years after the events, people begin to see some of the details as unusual and strange. For example, the supposed student leaders were out of the country by the end of the day and across the ocean within the ocean. In 1989, that kind of speed was simply ridicules, couldn't be done without a lot of pre-planning. This means these student leaders expected to run out of the country in a hurry, despite the fact there was simply no precedence on how the Chinese government would react.

Nowadays, especially after observing the dissolution of USSR and the more recent Arabic Springs, it is generally agreed that the groups backing the student "leaders" have links with foreign intelligence services, especially the intelligence services that were involved with the dissolution of USSR. Similar methods of operation has also been observed in numerous conflicts in the followings decades, such as the Arabic spring, revolution in Egypt and many other similar events. A collective term for these type of maneuver is called color revolution. It describes a method of systemically disrupting another sovereign nation through none direct military and economic means. In color revolutions, the original government of the nation is overthrown through protests that starts out peaceful and "somehow" took a violent turn. It will then span out of control. Should the original government stand firm, a civil war may erupt and the opposition would sudden get weapons and other resources from their backer.

In 1989, at Beijing, this precisely what happened. Someone somehow fired a shot, then someone claimed to be injured and violence broke out. Now, should this kinda of event occurs in US, there is a standard set of procedure for it. The police will fire tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullet. The armored vehicles will be used to disperse the crowd and arrest a large group of people indiscriminately and sort them out latter. Then the news agencies are instructed to run damage control. A good method is holding lengthy debates on technicalities. The result of the debate itself is not the goal, the idea is that to drown the event through both time and sheer volume of information. A few weeks down the road, people would have forgotten a great deal about it and everyone can get back to their lives. We have seen similar methods in the recent Ferguson and Baltimore riots. However, unlike the Americans, which had plenty of experience with this kind of problem, the Chinese government at 1989 is ill prepared to deal with it. Hence, they called in the army. The move is effective, but very crude. It is equivalent of performing surgery with a large butcher knife instead a precise instrument like a scalpel.

5 Aftermath: There are plenty of negative impacts of the event and I don't really need to list them out one by one, but suffice to say while the Chinese government made the right call at the time, their method of implementation could have been a lot better. Make no mistake, color revolution must be stopped in its developing stage, though one should refrain from the big guns when a small, precise strike will do.

 

[jkroo]

With these stuffs, there is no way that they can get any support in China.

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Agree with you. Not only stuffs but also mindset.
Actually,they are not Chinese

 

[hans]

From economy side, I think your investment and faith is right.
CCP is good at economy, they can use so much resource and achieve whatever it want.
Alibaba may be a global giant in short time.
Yet this does not have much things to do with ordinary people like us.
If China become so-called democracy, then the rich people will take power..
No much difference...

I have great faith in China. In fact, I gambled my whole life savings on Alibaba stocks recently because I believe it will be a 600 dollar stocks 10 years down the line.

The CCP today is much different from CCP in 1989. The CCP is practical, its goal is to serve the people, which is the original ideal of communism.

You cannot expect 1989 china to adopt american democracy and thrive. China needed swift decision making, powerful leader to crush corruption, make hard decisions. Once china becomes more developed, I am positive that more democracy will come to the people.

Alibaba is now selling much more than Amazon.
And Alibaba is only focusing on east Asia and south east Asia, while Amazon has global presence.
If Alibaba can expand more globally, it will be much bigger..

Well I'm a PhD student, so "life savings" is not exactly a house.
Go big or go home i guess.

Either way, I believe it has the potential to be like amazon 10 years from now. China's internet population is growing, the people who does online shopping every day increases due to increasing net worth. The potential is huge!

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

With these stuffs, there is no way that they can get any support in China.

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These people are fringe elements, but you don't want moderates to drive into their hands. Something that CCP is doing.

Any sharp criticism of government leads to immediate censorship. This will drive moderate elements, into the extreme camp. And this has routinely happened in many places.

CCP fought so hard because Chiang Kai Shek in his initial years led a clamp down on Communists, and massacred them.

 

[jkroo]

I would agree some of your points..
These guys killed are mostly diehard who focus on seizing political power rather than practical improvement.
Yet this incident also lead to CCP distrust on people.
CCP used to trust people and people trust on CCP in 1980s.
And this incident ended the mutual trust between people and CCP.
CCP start to do what it want. People have no rights to say yes or no.
Though CCP achieve great economy growth, they do not care much about people opinion.
CCP know clearly what people think and what people want, yet there is hardly any communication.

It's not true. You may not know the SNS strength and the great economy growth is not under the condition of abandon people's opinion.

Actually, I doubt your knowledge of the decision making procedure of CCP. About everyday policy making, you must don't attend various public hearing(听证会).

Try to learn something, friend.

 

[hans]

It is you who should learn more..
if you have your house taken by CCP, you will understand
CCP will not do something that will cause public anger.
Yet they will do a lot of thing that may cause small group of people anger.

It's not true. You may not know the SNS strength and the great economy growth is not under the condition of abandon people's opinion.

Actually, I doubt your knowledge of the decision making procedure of CCP. About everyday policy making, you must don't attend various public hearing(听证会).

Try to learn something, friend.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

@Bussard Ramjet, did you do any research before posting about Tiananmen or you just like to troll about Chinese scars?

My dear friend, I have done some research, and I subscribe to the camp that believe that the clampdown was necessary.

Yet, I think China must squarely face it. Convince its people this thing, rather than hide from this. This event did take place, and was important as well. So face up to it.

This is my only hope.

Right attitude to any real Indian.

This is wrong attitude to anyone who tries to bring it up.

My point is that China did the right thing, HENCE don't hide from it. Accept it, and explain it to your people. Don't put your people on the back foot when they confront outsiders. Bring your people in your trust.

Again, I repeat-

China was right to put this thing down, for I'm sure the future path would have only been bad.

The only thing I want is for China to face up to it. Blocking something from people always makes one loose credibility. Don't lose credibility in your fight against foreign propaganda. Fight it head on, with your own story, and narratives.

@AndrewJin @Tractor @YoucanYouup

 

[hans]

I would say clear up the square is right thing.
Yet killing is not necessary. There could be better way of handling it
And the most important thing, many of those who give order to fire are still alive and in power.
Then hide it will be the best option..

My dear friend, I have done some research, and I subscribe to the camp that believe that the clampdown was necessary.

Yet, I think China must squarely face it. Convince its people this thing, rather than hide from this. This event did take place, and was important as well. So face up to it.

This is my only hope.
This is wrong attitude to anyone who tries to bring it up.
My point is that China did the right thing, HENCE don't hide from it. Accept it, and explain it to your people. Don't put your people on the back foot when they confront outsiders. Bring your people in your trust.

 

[jkroo]

It is you who should learn more..
if you have your house taken by CCP, you will understand
CCP will not do something that will cause public anger.
Yet they will do a lot of thing that may cause small group of people anger.

Fortuanately, My house is just 征收 by 开发商
And I am satisfied with the payment. And yes, some of people are not satisfy with the compensation and definitely take the chance to make money. It is the real world with many kind of people. I have no problem with that.

It seems that you are the people of that small group. Please don't let the anger to mislead you. You can take the 开发商 to the court. You really should learn something, friend.

Your target is 开发商 not CCP, please don't talk like this way anymore.

 

[hans]

You are lucky that it is 开发商 who take your house, not gangsters..
If you are facing gangsters, you will not be that happy...

Fortuanately, My house is just 征收 by 开发商
And I am satisfied with the payment. And yes, some of people are not satisfy with the compensation and definitely take the chance to make money. It is the real world with many kind of people. I have no problem with that.

It seems that you are the people of that small group. Please don't let the anger to mislead you. You can put the 开发商 to the court. You really should learn something, friend.

 

[Beidou2020]

These people are fringe elements, but you don't want moderates to drive into their hands. Something that CCP is doing.

Any sharp criticism of government leads to immediate censorship. This will drive moderate elements, into the extreme camp. And this has routinely happened in many places.

CCP fought so hard because Chiang Kai Shek in his initial years led a clamp down on Communists, and massacred them.

Take your Hindu brainwashed propganda to the Hindu section and discuss it over there kid.

 

[jkroo]

You are lucky that it is 开发商 who take your house, not gangsters..
If you are facing gangsters, you will not be that happy...

Yes, there exist the risk. It is not CCP's fault, right?
Try to use the weapon of law as soon as possible to protect your interest. This is my advices and the only way to deal with the conflict. Trust me.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Take your Hindu brainwashed propganda to the Hindu section and discuss it over there kid.

I am not a Hindu. I have no kid. It is you who are low quality person, who knows nothing but to spew random drivel.

 

[hans]

What if the gangster are employed by government?
And when you call police, the police deny to deal with this issue?

Yes, there exist the risk. It is not CCP's fault, right?
Try to use the weapon of law as soon as possible to protect your interest. This is my advices and the only way to deal with the conflict. Trust me.