Thrust vectoring at 400 knots

[MastanKhan]

Anything that exceeds 9 or sustained 9 will make the pilot faint is it not?

Hi,

How about thrust vectoring at 400 knots---!!!

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Hi,

How about thrust vectoring at 400 knots---!!!

Mastan Bhai R u asking me or sarcastic? If serious then I have no clue because am from medical field....

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Bhai R u asking me or sarcastic? If serious then I have no clue because am from medical field....

I was just asking you---I have asked many of our indian colleagues about the speed at which thrust vectoring can be deployed effectively during flight SAFELY.

Thrust vectoring at speeds can be compared to a high speed collision. The car travelling forward at 60 mph comes to a sudden stop due to impact---but the driver is still moving forward at 60 mph----he gets retrained by his seat belt----but then the internal organs are still travelling at60 miles per hour---sometimes the seat belts break due to force exerted on them.

So---with a sudden change in direction---in case of thrust vectoring---the plane changes direction exerting extreme duress on its structure---the pilots is still moving in a different direction even though being held back by the seat belts---and the body organs and fluids moving in another direction.

Even though pressurized suits are a big help and stronger seat belts work better---human body can take so much.

S---I have yet to get an answer from indian members----what is a safe speed for thrust vectoring?

 

[VCheng]

I was just asking you---I have asked many of our indian colleagues about the speed at which thrust vectoring can be deployed effectively during flight SAFELY.

Thrust vectoring at speeds can be compared to a high speed collision. The car travelling forward at 60 mph comes to a sudden stop due to impact---but the driver is still moving forward at 60 mph----he gets retrained by his seat belt----but then the internal organs are still travelling at60 miles per hour---sometimes the seat belts break due to force exerted on them.

So---with a sudden change in direction---in case of thrust vectoring---the plane changes direction exerting extreme duress on its structure---the pilots is still moving in a different direction even though being held back by the seat belts---and the body organs and fluids moving in another direction.

Even though pressurized suits are a big help and stronger seat belts work better---human body can take so much.

S---I have yet to get an answer from indian members----what is a safe speed for thrust vectoring?

Thrust vectoring can be used at any speed, provided the transitions are managed smoothly to keep down peak and sustained g-forces.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thrust vectoring can be used at any speed, provided the transitions are managed smoothly to keep down peak and sustained g-forces.

Vcheng,

Talk to me in English---. Agreeed---but that can also be done by moving the stick----then what is the difference.

 

[VCheng]

Vcheng,

Talk to me in English---. Agreeed---but that can also be done by moving the stick----then what is the difference.

Think of thrust vectoring as providing additional force in the desired direction to aid maneuverability, much more so than just the control surfaces can provide, specially in extreme attitudes on the fringes of the flight envelope. In order to not kill or hurt the pilot, all one needs to do is to ensure that the accelerative forces during such transitions do not exceed physiologic limits. This is done by making transitions gradual enough with total limits with the appropriate lines of code in the flight control software. Easy!

 

[Viper0011.]

Thrust vectoring can be used at any speed, provided the transitions are managed smoothly to keep down peak and sustained g-forces.

I am not sure how much you really know about Thrust Vectoring and Aircraft's structural integrity. Can a 747 go supersonic? Absolutely, is that do-able regularly? Heck No!!
TV is not very useful in WVR as majority of the WVR action happens from 1000 - 10000 meters. Thrust Vectoring provides a lot of high AOA and agility from 12000 - 20000 feet due to LESS drag. Also, remember the post stall performance too. If you use TV to beat a missile and the enemy fired a second one at you, post TV maneuver, your post stall performance would make you a sitting duck for Guns, let alone a second missile already chasing after you.

Think of thrust vectoring as providing additional force in the desired direction to aid maneuverability, much more so than just the control surfaces can provide, specially in extreme attitudes on the fringes of the flight envelope. In order to not kill or hurt the pilot, all one needs to do is to ensure that the accelerative forces during such transitions do not exceed physiologic limits. This is done by making transitions gradual enough with total limits with the appropriate lines of code in the flight control software. Easy!

Some of your content above is wrong. For starters, what is TV?
1) Simply, it is Altitude Control by different Techniques. Russians use Gas Dynamics, Western use Fluid Dynamics.
2) Software isn't really used in TV to the extent you are explaining here. The engines bleed through throttles and other controls, the process remains the same in TV also. However, simple TV uses a bunch of actuators that change the geographical angle of Propulsion dynamics.
3) TV so far is used at lower speeds and its considered useless at lower altitudes due to significant issues with Stall Performance and Recovery. You'd be a sitting duck to Guns if you decided to use TV in WVR. At higher altitude, if you used TV and two missiles were chasing after you with few seconds worth of distance in between, try using a TV maneuver and immediately hitting the eject button as you might never even get to see that button again.
4) TV at lower or higher altitudes takes a toll on the human body and can result in casualties if done carelessly.
5) The prime contender for TV will be your next gen UAV's, UCAV's, etc. and the 6th generation jets. Nothing today is that advance.

 

[VCheng]

I am not sure how much you really know about Thrust Vectoring and Aircraft's structural integrity. Can a 747 go supersonic? Absolutely, is that do-able regularly? Heck No!!
TV is not very useful in WVR as majority of the WVR action happens from 1000 - 10000 meters. Thrust Vectoring provides a lot of high AOA and agility from 12000 - 20000 feet due to drag. Also, remember the post stall performance too. If you use TV to beat a missile and the enemy fired a second one at you, post TV maneuver, your post stall performance would make you a sitting duck for Guns, let alone a second missile already chasing after you.



Some of your content above is wrong. For starters, what is TV?
1) Simply, it is Altitude Control by different Techniques. Russians use Gas Dynamics, Western use Fluid Dynamics.
2) Software isn't really used in TV to the extent you are explaining here. The engines bleed through throttles and other controls, the process remains the same in TV also. However, simple TV uses a bunch of actuators that change the geographical angle of the propulsion dynamics.
3) TV so far is used at a lower speed and its considered useless at lower altitudes due to significant issues with Stall Performance and Recovery. You'd be a sitting duck to Guns if you decided to use TV in WVR. At higher altitude, if you used TV and two missiles were chasing after you with few seconds worth of distance in between, try using a TV maneuver and immediately hitting the eject button as you might never even get to see that button again.
4) TV at lower or higher altitudes takes a toll on the human body and can result in casualties if done carelessly.
5) The prime contender for TV will be your next gen UAV's, UCAV's, etc. and the 6th generation jets. Nothing today is that advance.

My comments were simplified for purposes of talking about the effect on the human body and how to keep them in check. Thank you for adding the detail above, but that in no way contradicts what I said earlier.

 

[SQ8]

Thrust vectoring can be used at any speed, provided the transitions are managed smoothly to keep down peak and sustained g-forces.

And as we know, the G-force you encounter has a certain relation with speed. So while using TV to swing the aircraft around rapidly at 200 knots may not do much due to the lesser stress encountered, doing the same at 500 knots will tear the thing apart.
Much pooh pooed by the Indians and disregarded, but the col had a point with Thrust vectoring here.

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

 

[VCheng]

And as we know, the G-force you encounter has a certain relation with speed. So while using TV to swing the aircraft around rapidly at 200 knots may not do much due to the lesser stress encountered, doing the same at 500 knots will tear the thing apart.
Much pooh pooed by the Indians and disregarded, but the col had a point with Thrust vectoring here.

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

It is more accurate to say that the g-force is related to the rate of change of speed, not the speed itself. So it does not matter whether the change happens at 200 knots or 500, as long as the rate of change is the same, nothing adverse will happen.

 

[SQ8]

It is more accurate to say that the g-force is related to the rate of change of speed, not the speed itself. So it does not matter whether the change happens at 200 knots or 500, as long as the rate of change is the same, nothing adverse will happen.

Well, airplanes like the F-22 manage this change via their flight control system. Not the Su-30.

 

[VCheng]

Well, airplanes like the F-22 manage this change via their flight control system. Not the Su-30.

Yes, like I said before, all it needs is a proper FCS to manage such transitions in a manner safe for both the plane and the pilot.

 

[danger007]

True that, why do we Pakistanis give shit to what Indians say about it? we should totally ignore them and their biased uninformed opinion and most importantly NOT divulge any important info

Not even single Indian member said anything about JF 17. .. stop dragging us ...

@Manticore.... nice pics ...

 

[SQ8]

Yes, like I said before, all it needs is a proper FCS to manage such transitions in a manner safe for both the plane and the pilot.

The Indians were looking into it last I sniffed around. However, in the manner safe for the pilot and plane may not essentially get you the performance you expect. With the advent of weapons like the AIM-9X-II, IRIS-T and others which literally chase you down at 60g+, its pointless.

 

[VCheng]

The Indians were looking into it last I sniffed around. However, in the manner safe for the pilot and plane may not essentially get you the performance you expect. With the advent of weapons like the AIM-9X-II, IRIS-T and others which literally chase you down at 60g+, its pointless.

BVR is a game changer, no doubt.

In any case, the FCS can rely on any methodology to aid maneuvering as needed, but at all times it must keep the airframe and pilot safe.