Thoughts on advancing Pakistan's aviation industry

[El Sidd]

I would like to see the Ryan Air model implemented in Pakistan. Pakistan Railway is overwhelmed and is probably the best time to take to air before oil gets expensive again.

Once the power generation units are strategically placed and the CPEC railway system in place we can revert back to our Railways which will be given proper care during that time.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Policies create structures.

Structures breed functions.

Functions bear order.

What is policy?


Step 1: Demonstrate to ruling elites that they can make loads of money from Pak Aviation Industry i.e. through established and profit making aviation sector.

All these elites have to do is create a joint holding company to put 30% of their ill begotten gains in this holding and let the holding company establish operating companies with actual investments on the ground. Money Whitewashed and Pak people benefit too. Win-Win Paradigm. (Money problem solved. Elites remain filthy rich)

Step 2: Make law that henceforth all of PAF needs of new fighters will be answered by PAC alone. Be it under licenced proudction or JV or whatnot...PAC must be the sole Point of Producing/building PAF fighters i.e. JF17 model and making it more local gradually.

Step 3: Join the Supply Chain of Chinese civilian aircraft manufacturing industry. The Chinese would be producing thousands of these... great place to be partner for both revenues and expansion of industrial base.

Step 4: Join TFX as at least industrial partner and send all boys and girls for PAC over there and let them bring experience, knowledge and some business back home.

Step 5: All along with CPEC and around it create small and medium siezed civilian aviation infrastructure..airports and services. Pak aviation sector is underserved and it is going to see exponential growth. Plan today. Let the private sector build and operate such airports. Or start a company and float it on Karachi Stock Exchange

Goes without saying that PNS must follow the same policies.... it is in a sorry state. PNS must establish first and far most Naval Engineering & Manufacturing Infrastructure.. Afro-Asian Ocean is of strategic importance to both Pak and China...by 2030 this has to be almost exculsive lake or shared with partners lake for PNS.

Certainly, the focus has to be making A2A missiles as well. Radars for all three services have to be locally made even with ToT or licenced proudction.

All the above policies will create empolyment for Young Paks...and also add to Comprehensive National Strength.

And money is no issue at all. Will and Love of Pak is.

At the lower rate of 5% growth Pak GDP will be more than double for what it is today i.e. twice or more money available at that point.

Money never was a problem for PAK. Corruption and incompetence has been.


@messiach you are right about turbines on so many fronts... however, I do believe the policy has to be winning time first, establishing an industrial base with partnership with China and from then build towards truly native effort/capacity. Pak needs to become part of bigger industrial supply chains not only in this particular sector.

 

[CriticalThought]

Thankyou. PAF deserves credit. Aeroeng turbines are central to aviation industry. It will be difficult for PAF to design or develop an airworthy turbine on its own. State engineering corporation like AVIC are needed. Out political govt. has to take initiative, it is their responsibility.

Madam, first of all apologies for my oversight in delaying a response to your post.

Do you think linking turbine development with strategic defence vis a vis cruise missile development could gain more support for this initiative? We know for sure that SPD is working to enhance the range of our CMs. At the same time, it stands to reason they should be looking to give it stealth features as well and an engine that generates a large heat signature would be contrary to that objective. And we know from history that once it comes to strategic defence, our guys get the job done. The nukes and ballistic missiles are hard evidence of this.

The unfortunate reality is that SPD will get the job done by any means possible. But I would be happy even if we start off with ToT, as long as we don't then sit on our asses. Though, the objectives of continuously making the CMs more lethal mean they will definitely spend R&D budget in this area. Our fighter jet program can then be an indirect beneficiary. And if they start off a parallel research group that concentrates on fighter jet engines, then there could be healthy cross-pollination between the two groups as well.

Policies create structures.

Structures breed functions.

Functions bear order.

What is policy?


Step 1: Demonstrate to ruling elites that they can make loads of money from Pak Aviation Industry i.e. through established and profit making aviation sector.

All these elites have to do is create a joint holding company to put 30% of their ill begotten gains in this holding and let the holding company establish operating companies with actual investments on the ground. Money Whitewashed and Pak people benefit too. Win-Win Paradigm. (Money problem solved. Elites remain filthy rich)

Step 2: Make law that henceforth all of PAF needs of new fighters will be answered by PAC alone. Be it under licenced proudction or JV or whatnot...PAC must be the sole Point of Producing/building PAF fighters i.e. JF17 model and making it more local gradually.

Step 3: Join the Supply Chain of Chinese civilian aircraft manufacturing industry. The Chinese would be producing thousands of these... great place to be partner for both revenues and expansion of industrial base.

Step 4: Join TFX as at least industrial partner and send all boys and girls for PAC over there and let them bring experience, knowledge and some business back home.

Step 5: All along with CPEC and around it create small and medium siezed civilian aviation infrastructure..airports and services. Pak aviation sector is underserved and it is going to see exponential growth. Plan today. Let the private sector build and operate such airports. Or start a company and float it on Karachi Stock Exchange

Goes without saying that PNS must follow the same policies.... it is in a sorry state. PNS must establish first and far most Naval Engineering & Manufacturing Infrastructure.. Afro-Asian Ocean is of strategic importance to both Pak and China...by 2030 this has to be almost exculsive lake or shared with partners lake for PNS.

Certainly, the focus has to be making A2A missiles as well. Radars for all three services have to be locally made even with ToT or licenced proudction.

All the above policies will create empolyment for Young Paks...and also add to Comprehensive National Strength.

And money is no issue at all. Will and Love of Pak is.

At the lower rate of 5% growth Pak GDP will be more than double for what it is today i.e. twice or more money available at that point.

Money never was a problem for PAK. Corruption and incompetence has been.


@messiach you are right about turbines on so many fronts... however, I do believe the policy has to be winning time first, establishing an industrial base with partnership with China and from then build towards truly native effort/capacity. Pak needs to become part of bigger industrial supply chains not only in this particular sector.

Many thanks for the extensive thoughts.

IF we had good governance, then maybe us two would be discussing the weather in Beijing today. Or I might be complaining of the rain in Sydney. PAF has had to take up all this work because our political leaders are dead weight on our sinking boat.

I guess, the best gauge of the future is PAF's own roadmap. And from the MoDP yearbook, it looks like Aviation Design Institute is a go. Also, from the ACM's recent speech, it is evident that PAC is planning to enter everything from 5th gen aircrafts to AESA radars to even space systems. In this background, the article is proposing the development of truly indigenous capabilities, because that is what will advance us as a country and as a nation. If all of the stated roadmap is going to be based on ToT then we will never progress. That is the main point I am trying to convey.

 

[messiach]

Madam, first of all apologies for my oversight in delaying a response to your post.

Do you think linking turbine development with strategic defence vis a vis cruise missile development could gain more support for this initiative? We know for sure that SPD is working to enhance the range of our CMs. At the same time, it stands to reason they should be looking to give it stealth features as well and an engine that generates a large heat signature would be contrary to that objective. And we know from history that once it comes to strategic defence, our guys get the job done. The nukes and ballistic missiles are hard evidence of this.

The unfortunate reality is that SPD will get the job done by any means possible. But I would be happy even if we start off with ToT, as long as we don't then sit on our asses. Though, the objectives of continuously making the CMs more lethal mean they will definitely spend R&D budget in this area. Our fighter jet program can then be an indirect beneficiary. And if they start off a parallel research group that concentrates on fighter jet engines, then there could be healthy cross-pollination between the two groups as well.



Many thanks for the extensive thoughts.

IF we had good governance, then maybe us two would be discussing the weather in Beijing today. Or I might be complaining of the rain in Sydney. PAF has had to take up all this work because our political leaders are dead weight on our sinking boat.

I guess, the best gauge of the future is PAF's own roadmap. And from the MoDP yearbook, it looks like Aviation Design Institute is a go. Also, from the ACM's recent speech, it is evident that PAC is planning to enter everything from 5th gen aircrafts to AESA radars to even space systems. In this background, the article is proposing the development of truly indigenous capabilities, because that is what will advance us as a country and as a nation. If all of the stated roadmap is going to be based on ToT then we will never progress. That is the main point I am trying to convey.

SPD cannot get everything done on its own. Cruise turbines are a different class,not comparable to fighter turbines.
The proper way is to establish a civil structure. PAF or PN are not suppose to manufacture jets or submarines. PAF is a unique establishment and we know it all came about because of constant sanctions. Look at the structure of AVIC which runs a very succesful model of AeSp Eng programmes. C919 is pinnacle of their fab-tech development cycle. We have an opportunity inform of CPEC, which should utilise it. Military organisations have a limited agenda, very narrow scope, limited time frame and fixed goals. This is where civil governance comes. They have to take lead in development. But as I have seen it, our bureaucratic setup is organized to suppress & oppress.

Policies create structures.

Structures breed functions.

Functions bear order.

What is policy?


Step 1: Demonstrate to ruling elites that they can make loads of money from Pak Aviation Industry i.e. through established and profit making aviation sector.

All these elites have to do is create a joint holding company to put 30% of their ill begotten gains in this holding and let the holding company establish operating companies with actual investments on the ground. Money Whitewashed and Pak people benefit too. Win-Win Paradigm. (Money problem solved. Elites remain filthy rich)

Step 2: Make law that henceforth all of PAF needs of new fighters will be answered by PAC alone. Be it under licenced proudction or JV or whatnot...PAC must be the sole Point of Producing/building PAF fighters i.e. JF17 model and making it more local gradually.

Step 3: Join the Supply Chain of Chinese civilian aircraft manufacturing industry. The Chinese would be producing thousands of these... great place to be partner for both revenues and expansion of industrial base.

Step 4: Join TFX as at least industrial partner and send all boys and girls for PAC over there and let them bring experience, knowledge and some business back home.

Step 5: All along with CPEC and around it create small and medium siezed civilian aviation infrastructure..airports and services. Pak aviation sector is underserved and it is going to see exponential growth. Plan today. Let the private sector build and operate such airports. Or start a company and float it on Karachi Stock Exchange

Goes without saying that PNS must follow the same policies.... it is in a sorry state. PNS must establish first and far most Naval Engineering & Manufacturing Infrastructure.. Afro-Asian Ocean is of strategic importance to both Pak and China...by 2030 this has to be almost exculsive lake or shared with partners lake for PNS.

Certainly, the focus has to be making A2A missiles as well. Radars for all three services have to be locally made even with ToT or licenced proudction.

All the above policies will create empolyment for Young Paks...and also add to Comprehensive National Strength.

And money is no issue at all. Will and Love of Pak is.

At the lower rate of 5% growth Pak GDP will be more than double for what it is today i.e. twice or more money available at that point.

Money never was a problem for PAK. Corruption and incompetence has been.


@messiach you are right about turbines on so many fronts... however, I do believe the policy has to be winning time first, establishing an industrial base with partnership with China and from then build towards truly native effort/capacity. Pak needs to become part of bigger industrial supply chains not only in this particular sector.

Agreed in general. Specific, ten yrs down the line, i do see a scope in collaboration with AVIC eg C919 co-man.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

@MastanKhan very dear friend, the most important thread in this section, must say in the entire Pak Defence section and no one paying attention...

Sad?

And here we are as aliens, foreigners contributing to the advancement of Pak industrial base.

 

[jamal18]

I would like to see the Ryan Air model implemented in Pakistan. Pakistan Railway is overwhelmed and is probably the best time to take to air before oil gets expensive again.

Once the power generation units are strategically placed and the CPEC railway system in place we can revert back to our Railways which will be given proper care during that time.

Yes, with aircraft built in Pakistan. The Saab 2000, the basis of Pakistan's AEW, is a good candidate. It is no longer in production by the Swedes.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes, with aircraft built in Pakistan. The Saab 2000, the basis of Pakistan's AEW, is a good candidate. It is no longer in production by the Swedes.

Interestingly, the Super Mashhak also has Swedish inheritance...

 

[jamal18]

Interestingly, the Super Mashhak also has Swedish inheritance...

Yes. Saab discontinued the 2000 because the market was too crowded, it was essentially stopped prematurely. It's production could be bought for a song and could be Pakistan's first commercial aircraft. Same story as mushak.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes. Saab discontinued the 2000 because the market was too crowded, it was essentially stopped prematurely. It's production could be bought for a song and could be Pakistan's first commercial aircraft. Same story as mushak.

If only our politicians were forward thinking patriotic people of honor and integrity...

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan very dear friend, the most important thread in this section, must say in the entire Pak Defence section and no one paying attention...

Sad?

And here we are as aliens, foreigners contributing to the advancement of Pak industrial base.

Hi,

You remember Gen. Noriega had a dignity battalion---whose soldiers were called " Dig Bats "---.

Why were they called that---because they would beat the dignity out of a person with the base ball bats.
That is what has happened with the pakistanis---.

As for manufacturing an aircraft engine---the wheel has already been invented---the best thing to do would be to take a ride with the chinese---Turkey and the russians---.

To me---for pakistan---it is more important to have joint ventures with like minded states than to do it all by yourself---and some of the industrial base shifting into pakistan as well.

 

[CriticalThought]

@The SC

 

[The SC]

Step by step..Pakistan will be there with engines and everything important for real sovereignty and self sufficiency.. Yes two heads are better than one as the saying goes, but the two (or more) heads have to be in harmony and most importantly to be complementary to each other..as an example if one knows how to make an engine and another the avionics and yet another the body design of an aircraft, they will all be able to share the tech and all of them after a while will be in a position to make its own fighter plane.. that is how it goes and this reality can be seen in Europe or even NATO countries in we include the US.. the Euro fighter was a good example and the F-35 is another good example..