This to Generals for this !

[Riz]

High time for our soldiers to kick out top 10 officers of the institute and replace them with patriotic ones , pak need generals not criminals bastards like the current one

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

there must be a law army numbers always must be less then police numbers . if you want to increase army then increase police too .

idea # 2 we can outsource our defense . 10bn$ per year contract is too high and i am sure contractors will defend us far better then paksitani army . we will not give land to contractors . contractors will obey us . contractors will not dictate us . contractors will not involve in politics . and last but best we can replace contractors anytime

best thing they will not blackmail us that we are shaheeds . if they do we will say saaly pesy liye thy tum ne .

Those emojis aside... you're not very far from an actual balance in internal and external force, balance of power...
In fact, regional national guard numbers should be higher than military in barracks for projection of power or defending borders.
But those are only part of wider reforms needed to structure a replacement that includes devolution of power or returning power back to the people. It will empower kinship, local ethics, management of resources and preserve language, art/culture and values.
Recognition as allocated(in Qur'an), tribe and language!

People putting their hopes on former premier must prepare themselves for a massive disappointment should he returns back to power with system intact and in it's current form. That though with no judgment on the merits of his person.

 

[salarsikander]

You misunderstood my whole post. All I tried to say was that Bajwa would not have abandoned Imran Khan if he had not become a threat to Pakistan itself, especially after the institution had invested so much in Imran Khan. Under Kayani, Raheel Sharif and Bajw, Imran became the PM from an almost nobody (politically); they did it to get rid of PML and PPP which is understandable. But after doing all that, if the institution abandoned Imran Khan then there has to be a reason for that.

Lol, I didn't misunderstand your point, it's you who is hell-bent on Supporting the Establishment.
I am against the establishment since 60's when they Abused, kicked, and insulted Fatimah Ali Jinnah vs Ayub Khan,
Period, IK or no IK, the Khakis of 22 Grade have no business interfering politically PERIOD
IT IS WHAT IS IN THER OATH, I haven't written that OATH nor Do I have to read and stand by it,
MY only problem is with them overstepping their boundaries, Had they not Politcilly interfered nonoe of this would have happened, where pigs like Zaradris and Shareef would rule the country and bring to the brink of Default

WHat happened with IK is the status quo has been challenged something that should have been done during Ayub era when he was openly shaming and insulting Fatima Ali jinnah. Right now the Holy cows are running naked,
Respected is not deserved but earned, when you put in shit laws in 60s that you can't criticize military shows how much of a fragile ego your Khakis have

Imran Khan is one who has damaged our relations with the best of our friends and he should be sent to the gallows for that alone.

Damaged relations and should be sent to Galloows for that? So he should pritoise relations at the cost of his nation - there you go typical elite privilege deranged mentality

You know, there was a time on this forum, maybe not 10 years ago, when people would argue over matters and extreme divergence of views but would not abuse each other. This is another gift of Imran Khan, he has brainwashed kids to the point where they neither respect their peers nor their elders and the admins and mods too refuse to enforce the rules of the forum as long as the abuser is a supporter of someone whom they also support. Pity.

Pity and woe on you people like you - who think they deserve respect for supporting a rotting mindset that think it has the only right to make decision for Pakistanis - Remeber son, respect is earned and not Demanded, where were you When your Elders Ayub was bullying and cursing openly to Fatima Ali jinnah, it was your military that started picking up its own citizens from Their homes, but when daddy pentagons sends Raymond davis or Blow the shit out of Salala Chesckpost - where are the Kahki Balls then?

But if Raheel Sharif and Bajwa had not done what they did for Imran Iman, Imran Khan would still be a 5 seat nobody.

The question is why did they do it ?
Whey did they engage in Politics, is that part of their Job Description?

 

[Signalian]

It's a delicate issue because we need a disciplined rank-and-file. Let's say, hypothetically, Pakistan comes under the control of the ideal leadership. Wouldn't you want them to be at the helm of a disciplined army? I would.

The key here is to have a source of reference that sets red lines that no officer of the state should cross, i.e., harming civilians, suppressing peaceful political dissent, interfering with judicial processes, surrendering the national interests of the state (e.g., AJK), and so on. If anyone crosses those red lines, they should be removed by another officer of the state. If that fails, then the people reserve the right to remove said transgressor.

I think back to when Umar bin al-Khattab (RA) spoke to the crowd:

These kids watch a video or a tweet and start jumping around

The orders that come up for police, for FC/Rangers and for regular military soldiers have few differences between them. However they come in written form with clear instructions.

The orders that come for regular military unit pass down from CO to other officers who then conduct a meeting either under CO or the brig comd along with GOC call in officers of relevant unit depending upon nature of that task on basis of its sensitivity so different ranks and different cadre of officers are involved from the word go.

Next, depending upon nature of task, even in direct armed confrontation with civilians, the orders to fire live ammunition is the call of the highest ranking who in almost all cases makes it clear in every meeting that it’s a no- go option. In some cases even if the order comes from GHQ to fire as last resort in saving own life of soldier, the GOC, or the Brig Comd or the CO or even the officer leading troops into ops area can nullify those orders fully and cover up in the report.

Then, based on the meeting, the troops are allotted weapons from the unit kote. This is where again the relevant officer can make own decision which weapons are authorised (full) but which should be carried (usually lesser or impotent as in safety ON all times) based on circumstances. Troops are then assigned vehicles which can have mounted weapons.

A last instructional sermon is given either by leading commander or the CO to fully explain the situation where the trooos are heading and what’s green and what’s red meaning what they can do and what they can’t under any circumstances.

Finally the soldiers load up and head out. After deployment, the officer in command sends reports to Battalion or Bde HQ and the orders could change based on developments in the ops area.

Now in all of this I can remember an example of 1970s Baloch insurgency were the commanding officer, a major, gave order to troops not to fire back at insurgents even if fired upon. The troops didn’t lose any life but some were wounded. Since the insurgents were surrounded, they gave up after many hours having lost ammunition and running out of supplies.

This is where PK should be jumping in to explain the SOPs in urban ops area where troops are deployed for civil unrest. Anyways, the procedural methods of paramilitary and police are a bit different.

The chain of command exists and it will keep existing. One of the reasons is the method of training inculcated to the troops as recruits and then in Ex areas. Army thrives on discipline and order. There are other factors too because of which CoC remains intact.

Most notably is the morale of the soldier as well as of the officer both of who know they are responsible for each other’s safety. The security cordon of officer protects him and the concurrent orders of officer protects his troops. No officer wants to take back casualties from ops area to unit area while in command.

The NCOs and the JCOs are directly linked to the troops and they also ensure that orders are carried out and troops are kept safe, while also checking on troop deployment, weapon deployment, weapon handling and other factors.

There is a lot of misconception and fantasy-talk in this thread which is no way near reality.

 

[Signalian]

There is only 1 political party which has created this hatred amongst its supporters for the Army. It is agreed that the actions of the Military higher ups have been quite undemocratic, authoritative and outside law & legal mandate. However, even MQM, a party which faced serious military action, did not create this type of hatred for the Army which this man Imran Khan does day and night to the point where his sheep are repeating his bleat in the most arrogant, selfish and dishonorable means available. Pretty soon they will be wishing and inviting Indian Army to destroy Pak Army just to satisfy the ego of their leader whose ego just cannot be fulfilled.

Initially Bajwa was the father and now Bajwa is the worst. Imran Khan cannot even continue with his own policy or plan and his hired team of social media influencers has cause heart breaking damage to the youth who are easily influenced by the constant bombardment of lies and propaganda. Initially it was a US conspiracy and then it became home grown. Every narrative changes with time to suit Imran Khan and that's what politicians do. But the sheep, oh the sheep, how they lap up every disgusting lie and story that he concocts, that's his real victory.

But the thing is, sheep will always be sheep and there will always be ways to brainwash them with other nonsense.

You are explaining something to those people whose eyes, ears, tongues and minds have been blinded by IK. Their battle ground is PDF, not the real life and they will use all the information from the internet to win arguments albeit being told that such is not the case.

7 pages and I couldn’t find one post explaining how the SOPs in this case are carried by police, paramilitaries or Army. No one knows. All they know is what IK and the media fed them and that’s the reality of their life for them. Surely police must have been sent by someone with some orders, or if rangers were sent or military troops were sent in. A soldier with a rifle in hand doesn’t mean that soldier will necessarily fire that weapon. In most cases, the weapons, the gear, the vehicles, the presence of officials, the forces involved etc all give clear clues what’s going on. Interestingly, media reporters also aren’t unable to pick up on this information through observation even when it’s their day to day job, but then you see that the thread was made on a tweet of a buffoon or an opinion, not necessarily a reporter.

They have made wet dreams and unfulfilling fantasies for themselves that such is the logical case and such n such should be happening. They don’t have information neither knowledge why things aren’t happening according to their wishes and dreams.

In Zaman park they thought police is weak and public is strong, whereas police was bound by some orders and also by courts, however even then police didn’t fire in retaliation how German Gestspo would have fired when the first cop got wounded or when the first Molotov was thrown. They will make connections without even analysing the basic factors. Police formed a strategy and waited and then raided party members residences to arrest them. Some other tactics are also in place against PTI by government, let’s see what happens.

 

[Signalian]

Using classic example, a soldier isn’t going to jump off a building and get himself killed even if the COAS himself commands.

I will give you a classic example to nullify your ridiculous concept.

Gen Zia was travelling in a Mil-8/17 helicopter on visits. Some of the security entourage had to travel in vehicles, there was no second helicopter. A soldier (body guard of Zia) from security entourage grabbed onto the landing gear of the helicopter in which ZIA was travelling, since the helicopter door had been closed due to capacity and he was told to travel in vehicles

After a good flight of many minutes, the helicopter landed and the soldier dropped from landing gear and opened the door of helicopter for General Zia.

Zia stood astounded remembering his face and asked him how did he reach here so quickly. The soldier replied that he held onto the the protruding landing gear of helicopter.

Zia got surprised and angry. The CO of security contingent was called for questioning, who in turn requested on soldier’s behalf.

Zia pardoned the soldier and promoted him to havaldar on the spot and was asked by pilot to sit inside copter for further flights. Zia being COAS and a tyrant as some think of him, pardoned and promoted instead of telling him to jump off the building and get killed.

Cling onto your concepts with your life if you want, they are not reality.

At least 4 x GOCs that I know off, didn’t want security travelling with them, one of them being a Lt General would travel on road bicycle (called racing cycle with inverted handle) and appear out of nowhere. They didn’t put soldiers at risk for sake of their lives neither asked them to jump out of building to get killed.

You have no idea of officer- soldier camaraderie, even in case of generals.

 

[Mentee]

But all that is most likely because of the domicile.

Enjoy your quota privilege and stop comparing a psychopath with a popular civilian leader . How many murders/roits took place over i.k's direction ?

Gen Zia was travelling in a Mil-8/17 helicopter on visits. Some of the security entourage had to travel in vehicles, there was no second helicopter. A soldier (body guard of Zia) from security entourage grabbed onto the landing gear of the helicopter in which ZIA was travelling, since the helicopter door had been closed due to capacity and he was told to travel in vehicles

After a good flight of many minutes, the helicopter landed and the soldier dropped from landing gear and opened the door of helicopter for General Zia.

Ustaad g you sure it wasn't tom cruise pulling an aerial stunt for top gun ?

 

[Strigon]

I will give you a classic example to nullify your ridiculous concept.

Gen Zia was travelling in a Mil-8/17 helicopter on visits. Some of the security entourage had to travel in vehicles, there was no second helicopter. A soldier (body guard of Zia) from security entourage grabbed onto the landing gear of the helicopter in which ZIA was travelling, since the helicopter door had been closed due to capacity and he was told to travel in vehicles

After a good flight of many minutes, the helicopter landed and the soldier dropped from landing gear and opened the door of helicopter for General Zia.

Zia stood astounded remembering his face and asked him how did he reach here so quickly. The soldier replied that he held onto the the protruding landing gear of helicopter.

Zia got surprised and angry. The CO of security contingent was called for questioning, who in turn requested on soldier’s behalf.

Zia pardoned the soldier and promoted him to havaldar on the spot and was asked by pilot to sit inside copter for further flights. Zia being COAS and a tyrant as some think of him, pardoned and promoted instead of telling him to jump off the building and get killed.

Cling onto your concepts with your life if you want, they are not reality.

At least 4 x GOCs that I know off, didn’t want security travelling with them, one of them being a Lt General would travel on road bicycle (called racing cycle with inverted handle) and appear out of nowhere. They didn’t put soldiers at risk for sake of their lives neither asked them to jump out of building to get killed.

You have no idea of officer- soldier camaraderie, even in case of generals.

The Irony that you pulled this insane story of a man vilified rightfully, as some sort of right of passage, some trial of strength or duty for a poor soul, only to further prove the point.

This post reminded me of the following:

 

[Salik]

@Signalian sir

ایک انسان جتنی بھی عبادت کر لے وہ نبی نہیں بن سکتا ۔ اور ایک فوجی جتنا بھی سپر مین بن جائے وہ ملک کا حکمران نہیں بن سکتا ۔ نبی خدا کی پسند سے اور حکمران عوام کی پسند سے بنتا ہے ۔​

No matter how devout a person may be, they cannot become a prophet, and no matter how skilled a soldier may be, they cannot become a ruler of a nation. The position of a prophet is bestowed by the will of God, while the position of a ruler is granted by the will of the people. Additionally, it is believed that when Imam Mehdi appears as a leader in the future, he will not assert his claim to leadership, but rather people will gather around him and make him their leader.

 

[Imran Khan]

@Signalian sir

ایک انسان جتنی بھی عبادت کر لے وہ نبی نہیں بن سکتا ۔ اور ایک فوجی جتنا بھی سپر مین بن جائے وہ ملک کا حکمران نہیں بن سکتا ۔ نبی خدا کی پسند سے اور حکمران عوام کی پسند سے بنتا ہے ۔​

No matter how devout a person may be, they cannot become a prophet, and no matter how skilled a soldier may be, they cannot become a ruler of a nation. The position of a prophet is bestowed by the will of God, while the position of a ruler is granted by the will of the people. Additionally, it is believed that when Imam Mehdi appears as a leader in the future, he will not assert his claim to leadership, but rather people will gather around him and make him their leader.

You ate wrong in.pakistan gernail run 100 gov instituions media poltics foregn relations deisaster management everything they are running

 

[Goenitz]

Meanwhile, ISRO launches its biggest space rocket with 36 satellites onboard. I mean w/o China and the US help, SUPARCO achieved nothing. Scientists to blame? no! The corrupt, short-sighted and incompetent genz.

 

[adam256]

Even the common solider getting abuse due to their top leaders.

Who abdcts , kidnaps in vigos and tortures innocent civilian? It is the common soldier. The fat stomach jurnails dont have enough energy to do this

 

[Mav3rick]

Lol, I didn't misunderstand your point, it's you who is hell-bent on Supporting the Establishment.
I am against the establishment since 60's when they Abused, kicked, and insulted Fatimah Ali Jinnah vs Ayub Khan,
Period, IK or no IK, the Khakis of 22 Grade have no business interfering politically PERIOD
IT IS WHAT IS IN THER OATH, I haven't written that OATH nor Do I have to read and stand by it,
MY only problem is with them overstepping their boundaries, Had they not Politcilly interfered nonoe of this would have happened, where pigs like Zaradris and Shareef would rule the country and bring to the brink of Default

I have no argument against all the above, I totally agree with whatever you have written.

WHat happened with IK is the status quo has been challenged something that should have been done during Ayub era when he was openly shaming and insulting Fatima Ali jinnah. Right now the Holy cows are running naked,
Respected is not deserved but earned, when you put in shit laws in 60s that you can't criticize military shows how much of a fragile ego your Khakis have

Also agreed.

Damaged relations and should be sent to Galloows for that? So he should pritoise relations at the cost of his nation - there you go typical elite privilege deranged mentality

Do you think I have something personal to gain or lose if our relations with US or Europe or UK or Japan or Australia or Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Malaysia etc., is damaged? No mate, it is the country and the 240 Million Pakistanis who will suffer over failed diplomatic efforts or should I rather say attempts to sabotage our relations with many of our friends which Imran Khan is a culprit of. And he should be sent to the gallows for that, unless you think Pakistan and 240 Million Pakistanis are not worth anything.

Pity and woe on you people like you - who think they deserve respect for supporting a rotting mindset that think it has the only right to make decision for Pakistanis - Remeber son, respect is earned and not Demanded, where were you When your Elders Ayub was bullying and cursing openly to Fatima Ali jinnah, it was your military that started picking up its own citizens from Their homes, but when daddy pentagons sends Raymond davis or Blow the shit out of Salala Chesckpost - where are the Kahki Balls then?

Pity indeed, that people have begun to believe they should only respect those who follow their own mindset, political mindset at that. And yet I will not woe your decision to do so, because whenever I do, it is out of my own weakness; and I have to be the adult here.

The question is why did they do it ?
Whey did they engage in Politics, is that part of their Job Description?

Whatever they did was illegal, immoral and absolutely wrong. But nothing justifies your behavior either.

You are explaining something to those people whose eyes, ears, tongues and minds have been blinded by IK. Their battle ground is PDF, not the real life and they will use all the information from the internet to win arguments albeit being told that such is not the case.

7 pages and I couldn’t find one post explaining how the SOPs in this case are carried by police, paramilitaries or Army. No one knows. All they know is what IK and the media fed them and that’s the reality of their life for them. Surely police must have been sent by someone with some orders, or if rangers were sent or military troops were sent in. A soldier with a rifle in hand doesn’t mean that soldier will necessarily fire that weapon. In most cases, the weapons, the gear, the vehicles, the presence of officials, the forces involved etc all give clear clues what’s going on. Interestingly, media reporters also aren’t unable to pick up on this information through observation even when it’s their day to day job, but then you see that the thread was made on a tweet of a buffoon or an opinion, not necessarily a reporter.

They have made wet dreams and unfulfilling fantasies for themselves that such is the logical case and such n such should be happening. They don’t have information neither knowledge why things aren’t happening according to their wishes and dreams.

In Zaman park they thought police is weak and public is strong, whereas police was bound by some orders and also by courts, however even then police didn’t fire in retaliation how German Gestspo would have fired when the first cop got wounded or when the first Molotov was thrown. They will make connections without even analysing the basic factors. Police formed a strategy and waited and then raided party members residences to arrest them. Some other tactics are also in place against PTI by government, let’s see what happens.

How I agree with you and generally, mostly actually, I ignore the posts. But then something gets on the nerves to the point where I just have to make an attempt to guide the confused.

But I am saddened how easily Imran Khan is able to fool the masses, especially the new generation. But then again, all con artists who are successful are successful only because they have the ability to fool the public at large to one mustn't despair at the fallibility of his/her fellow Pakistani; they are are human and simpletons who are falling for the biggest con artist of our country.

 

[Mav3rick]

Enjoy your quota privilege and stop comparing a psychopath with a popular civilian leader . How many murders/roits took place over i.k's direction ?

The comparison was to make a point, how the psychopath has the establishment's absolute support because of his domicile apparently; whereas the popular civilian leader was tagged an enemy with a head money because of his domicile.

 

[Mentee]

The comparison was to make a point, how the psychopath has the establishment's absolute support because of his domicile apparently; whereas the popular civilian leader was tagged an enemy with a head money because of his domicile.

Imran khan was shot at , had his home demolished partially , which is unprecedented and is being denied elections like mujeeb because of his domicile?


So, how many calls of murder and mayhem i.k made or how many race riots he intitated so far or what is the number of people killed/extorted at his behest ? Atleast get your facts straight before throwing the usual mazlomiat card.

was tagged an enemy with a head money because of his domicile.

Unlucky for him that altaf doesn't enjoy the popular support of the masses other than a tiny cult from his own community. Even his own people have dissociated with him which isn't the case with Imran Khan , who happens to be enjoying support base from across the country.