There have been at least 19 deadly mass shootings in the US so far in 2019

[Longhorn]

Americans on this forum do not for a moment believe that anyone on this forum is genuinely interested in discussing -- not debating -- the 'gun violence' issue in the US.

But for starter...

Discussion -- a usually cooperative and mutually agreed upon intent to correlate different ideas that may not have been companions to each other.

Debate -- a usually contestant event where different ideas attempts to supplant the others.

Huge chasm between the two.

How about I propose -- ban the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, and just about every 'holy' text in the US?

The allowance to have the gun is enshrined in the US Constitution, which is as 'holy' to Americans as the Bible is to Christians, the Quran to the Muslims, and the Torah to the Jews.

So if a Muslim objects to banning the Quran, then do not criticize US about the Second Amendment.

We are mainly Muslims on this forum so I will take the Quran as the example.
The Quran is, for Muslims, the literal and direct word of God. Therefore the only being that has the authority to change the wording is God himself. Even if there were certain parts of the text which certain people found no longer appropriate or relevant, no one has the authority to change it without putting themselves outside the fold of Islam. It is in effect an all or nothing situation.
The US Constitution however is a man made document and however holy it may be to Americans, it is a man made document, written to frame a vision and a direction for a particular nation at a particular time.
There are, I believe, twenty seven amendments to the constitution since it's inception, which have been made to accommodate certain needs at certain times. So the precedent is there that the constitution can be changed to meet changing needs and situations as and when required.
This dents your argument that the constitution can't be changed because it is holy to Americans when it has been changed twenty seven times already, and the second amendment that allows every citizen to own a gun is obviously causing death and mayhem to innocent Americans on a regular basis, so needs to be repealed.
The real reason, as everyone knows, is nothing to do with the sanctity of the constitution, more to do with the millions poured into the pockets of politicians by a gun lobby that has probably billions to lose if the right to bear arms is repealed.

 

[iLION12345_1]

We are mainly Muslims on this forum so I will take the Quran as the example.
The Quran is, for Muslims, the literal and direct word of God. Therefore the only being that has the authority to change the wording is God himself. Even if there were certain parts of the text which certain people found no longer appropriate or relevant, no one has the authority to change it without putting themselves outside the fold of Islam. It is in effect an all or nothing situation.
The US Constitution however is a man made document and however holy it may be to Americans, it is a man made document, written to frame a vision and a direction for a particular nation at a particular time.
There are, I believe, twenty seven amendments to the constitution since it's inception, which have been made to accommodate certain needs at certain times. So the precedent is there that the constitution can be changed to meet changing needs and situations as and when required.
This dents your argument that the constitution can't be changed because it is holy to Americans when it has been changed twenty seven times already, and the second amendment that allows every citizen to own a gun is obviously causing death and mayhem to innocent Americans on a regular basis, so needs to be repealed.
The real reason, as everyone knows, is nothing to do with the sanctity of the constitution, more to do with the millions poured into the pockets of politicians by a gun lobby that has probably billions to lose if the right to bear arms is repealed.

While the explanation you gave holds a lot of meaning. Especially regarding amendments. Stop looking at the literal constitution which is a bunch of words. And look at it effects, gambit summed it up perfectly. If you ban the Quran or Islam in a country, would it solve Islamic extremism? No. It would make it worst. Do you actually believe for even a second that if they banned guns in the USA then the people who have such a great love for this culture, plus the millions Of people in the firearm, protection, accessory, range, target and so on industry will sit silently? Do you actually believe that it’s possible to remove so many firearms from a country of which many are illegally held and will continue to stay in the country. Do you actually believe it will fix the actual reason these shootings happen that is a social divide and bad mental health? Nope. It’ll make all of those worst. I’ll say it again, Saying “ban guns because they cause death” is like saying “eat less because it causes death” both have the same effect, that is, none.
A person with a gun can choose to shoot or not, a person with food can choose to eat it or not. The actual way is to fix the root of the reason people choose to shoot. Not take away the legality of the tool.

Furthermore. As I said, Canada, Finland and some parts of even Pakistan have more guns per capita than the USA and similar issues are not seen there. Not to mention the dependence of US economy on it. The dependence of culture. Maybe banning guns will reduce it to an extent. Temporarily. Because people who want to kill others will find another way. But this ain’t the answer.
On the other hand, it has to be noted. USA isn’t doing much at all to fix the problem any other way either, and until it does, people will continue to die like this.

 

[VCheng]

There have been at least 19 deadly mass shootings in the US so far in 2019

https://abcnews.go.com/US/deadly-mass-shootings-month-2019/story?id=63449799

l suppose the US is to mass shootings what India is to rapes.

Why so many shootings?????

And yet you chose to live in such a dangerous place. I suppose you should consider moving somewhere else that is safer.

 

[gambit]

The Quran is, for Muslims, the literal and direct word of God.

There is no proof for God, so this line of argument is moot.

The real reason, as everyone knows, is nothing to do with the sanctity of the constitution, more to do with the millions poured into the pockets of politicians by a gun lobby that has probably billions to lose if the right to bear arms is repealed.

How many of your imams are millionaires?

 

[Longhorn]

There is no proof for God, so this line of argument is moot.

Regardless of the argument that there is no proof for God, that argument doesn't detract from the basic premise of the argument that the Quran cannot be, never has been and never will be changed. On the other hand your constitution has been changed multiple times and will be again in the future when it suits the right people. The only thing stopping the second amendment being repealed and guns being controlled and regulated is the vested financial and political interests which value money over human lives.

How many of your imams are millionaires?

Don't know, never counted them, although I'm sure there are some.
However, anyone that exploits religion and the sentiments of religious people for personal financial gain, much the same as those who perpetuate the sale of arms at the cost of people's lives, is scum of the highest order and there are plenty of those all over the world.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Americans on this forum do not for a moment believe that anyone on this forum is genuinely interested in discussing -- not debating -- the 'gun violence' issue in the US.

But for starter...

Discussion -- a usually cooperative and mutually agreed upon intent to correlate different ideas that may not have been companions to each other.

Debate -- a usually contestant event where different ideas attempts to supplant the others.

Huge chasm between the two.

How about I propose -- ban the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, and just about every 'holy' text in the US?

The allowance to have the gun is enshrined in the US Constitution, which is as 'holy' to Americans as the Bible is to Christians, the Quran to the Muslims, and the Torah to the Jews.

So if a Muslim objects to banning the Quran, then do not criticize US about the Second Amendment.

Quran is revealed word of God, the constitution was made up by some 18th century guys with powdered wigs based on 18th-century "Enlightenment" philosophy. I don't care what those people thought.

Also, the constitution is not considered a holy text by US people. It's considered a holy text by people who listen to Rush Limbaugh and watch Fox News. There's a whole other half of the country called Democrats that doesn't care about the Constitution.

Also, to be a "True American," you have to be a Bible-believing Christian. If you don't believe in the Bible, you can't speak on behalf of "True Americans" because you're not a "True American".

MURICA

 

[vostok]

Still better than in Wild West times.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Too many Muslims fail to understand that their beliefs don’t work on the world...
Islam is a religion which has no place in politics. Only in governance. Islam is considered a menace by half the world today because it was mixed with politics and turned into a tool for power.

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

-Surah At-Tawbah

I don't know what you mean by Islam having a place in governance not politics but "separation of church and state" is a concept completely alien to Islam, which comes from Thomas Jefferson not Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and which no Muslim should care about. Islam's authority comes from God.

Still better than in Wild West times.

I disagree. I imagine in Wild West times that when they were shooting, it was for a reason and at specific people (except the whole genocide of Native Americans)- not doing mass shootings of random people.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

You are free to believe and practice whatever you want, but you do not have the freedom to impose your beliefs on others, especially when they do not share your beliefs. And unfortunately for your feelings, when people do not share your beliefs, they will believe that they have the freedom to criticize and even mock your beliefs.

Criticize and mock my beliefs? Doesn't matter, I don't care what they think. Unless they kill me, I don't think what they do will really make a difference and I think I would consider it an honor to be killed for my beliefs. Anyone reading is invited to pray that I am martyred. May God make me a martyr. Ameen.

And you're trying to impose your beliefs on me by trying to say I'm not free to force things on others... yet you say one can't impose their beliefs.

This is false. The fact is, it's merely a question of who runs things and who has the power. If you run things, I'm sure you'll run things in accordance with your beliefs. If I run things, I intend to run things in accordance with whatever Islam says. I don't care anything about what some "Enlightenment"-era philosophers with powdered wigs said and I don't care about your liberal ideas.

Is this applicable globally? Or inside established borders?

If you believe Sharia laws are global in scope, then inevitably, there will be conflicts -- ARMED CONFLICTS.

Already, how we live in the US is in contradiction to Sharia laws. I have no problems with sex outside of marriage. Do you? If you do, what are you going to do about it? Beat me up? Kill me? I have no intention of changing my ways. So any effort of persuasion will be futile, which leave violence as your only recourse.

Yes, Sharia should be applied globally. Quran is a message for all of humanity.

You say "armed conflict" in all caps like that's supposed to scare me. It excites me. I'm not against armed conflict.

Armed conflict is not going anywhere. Armed conflict is in the world's destiny. Muslims are destined to engage in armed conflict with Dajjal. The world is destined for armed conflict.

I don't want peace. I want conflict. It excites me. Conflict moves things forward. I don't mind at all. Yes, conflict is inevitable. 'Tis destined.

Do I have a problem with sex outside of marriage. Yes, indeed. Under Sharia, I believe the punishment is 100 lashes.

You ask what I'm going to do about it. Beat you? Kill you? Those are your questions.

Well your questions in fact include an assumption that I'm going to do something.

Sharia punishments have to be carried out by the state. If I have control over the state, sure I intend to have you lashed 100 times in public if you're found committing fornication..... but I don't have control of the state and I don't have any master plan on how to take over the state and that's not exactly what I'm focused on.

You say my only recourse is violence. That's your thinking. I am a peaceful person. I am somewhat conservative but I don't believe in vigilante violence and maybe your views are influenced by television.

I am a peaceful and quiet person who goes about his business, I don't bother people. Pretty much anyone who knows me in real life would vouch that I'm a peaceful, quiet person who doesn't bother people. I have a right to my views and unless you're going to simply kill me for having my views I don't think you can do anything about me having my views.

You're out to force your views on me, not the other way around. I'm not out to force you to believe what I believe but you think I have to believe what you believe. I'm not interested in forcing any particular views on you. On the other hand, I don't think you're going to succeed in getting me to believe in your views. You're not the first person who believes in liberalism who I've talked to and I don't care about your made-up ideas about "freedom". Eternal truths from God outweigh stuff some guy simply made up. I don't care what some guy in a powdered wig said.

And yet you chose to live in such a dangerous place. I suppose you should consider moving somewhere else that is safer.

I think I'll continue risking it for now. Meanwhile, I think it's preferable to examine the issues in the society rather than sweep them under the rug. Apparently, you post a lot on the "team USA" thread, you defend US imperialism and you appear to be some kind of Chinese uncle tom.

I cannot answer your questions to or about the author.

But I can indeed say that every nation is free to try and impose its own version of Pax Romana as and when they feel able to do so, no more and no less than any other nation - equally.

Why do you worship the USA, Cheng? Were you one of the Hong Kong protestors singing the Star Spangled Banner?

 

[VCheng]

I think I'll continue risking it for now. Meanwhile, I think it's preferable to examine the issues in the society rather than sweep them under the rug. Apparently, you post a lot on the "team USA" thread, you defend US imperialism and you appear to be some kind of Chinese uncle tom.

And you appear to be a Mexican with an Arab name living in USA.

My posts speak for themselves and it would be better if you direct your responses to their substance and not the poster.

Now, what issue in US society do you think your OP intends to highlight?

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

And you appear to be a Mexican with an Arab name living in USA.

My posts speak for themselves and it would be better if you direct your responses to their substance and not the poster.

Now, what issue in US society do you think your OP intends to highlight?

Mexican, yes, Arab name no.

Why do you worship the US?

 

[VCheng]

Mexican, yes, Arab name no.

Why do you worship the US?

As I asked above, what issue in US society do you think your OP intends to highlight, O Mexican named Omar?

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

As I asked above, what issue in US society do you think your OP intends to highlight, O Mexican named Omar?

You realize there's tons of Mexicans named Omar....

why do you worship the US?

 

[VCheng]

You realize there's tons of Mexicans named Omar....

why do you worship the US?

So for the third time, what issue in US society do you think your OP intends to highlight?

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

So for the third time, what issue in US society do you think your OP intends to highlight?

I asked you first- why do you worship the US?