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The truth about the overpriced and inferior Leopard 2 Tank

NATO seems to have more Leopard 2A6 than Russias total number of T-90.

Leo 2
Model A0: 380 units (209 by Krauss Maffei and 171 by MaK) batch 1 later upgraded to model A2 then A4
Model A1: 450 units (248 by Krauss-Maffei and 202 by MaK) batch 2 later upgraded to model A4
300 units (165 by Krauss-Maffei and 135 by MaK) batch 3 later upgraded to model A4
Model A3: 300 units (165 by Krauss-Maffei and 135 by MaK) batch 4 later upgraded to model A4
Model A4: 695 units

Until 1994 Germany operated a total of 2,125 2A4s.

The Netherlands had an additional 445 tanks.
The 2A4 was license manufactured in Switzerland as Panzer 87 "Leopard" or Pz 87.
Switzerland operated 380 Pz 87 tanks.

Subtotal: 2950 units

170 newly built Leopard 2A6 HEL vehicles for Greece
219 new-built Leopard 2A6+ (Leopard 2E) for Spain
120 Leopard 2(S) (local designation Strv 122) for Sweden

Total 3459 units (many of which remanufactured and/or resold)

Leopard 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Middle Eastern countries should look towards doing JV on R&D with Japan and Korea along with Germany on Land, Sea and Air Vehicles and related technologies.
 
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Leo 2
Model A0: 380 units (209 by Krauss Maffei and 171 by MaK) batch 1 later upgraded to model A2 then A4
Model A1: 450 units (248 by Krauss-Maffei and 202 by MaK) batch 2 later upgraded to model A4
300 units (165 by Krauss-Maffei and 135 by MaK) batch 3 later upgraded to model A4
Model A3: 300 units (165 by Krauss-Maffei and 135 by MaK) batch 4 later upgraded to model A4
Model A4: 695 units

Until 1994 Germany operated a total of 2,125 2A4s.

The Netherlands had an additional 445 tanks.
The 2A4 was license manufactured in Switzerland as Panzer 87 "Leopard" or Pz 87.
Switzerland operated 380 Pz 87 tanks.

Subtotal: 2950 units

170 newly built Leopard 2A6 HEL vehicles for Greece
219 new-built Leopard 2A6+ (Leopard 2E) for Spain
120 Leopard 2(S) (local designation Strv 122) for Sweden

Total 3459 units (many of which remanufactured and/or resold)

Leopard 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
T-90 (all versions)

Produced1992–present
Number built1,667+



  • Algeria has purchased a total of 305 T-90SA tanks in two batches. The first batch of 185 was signed during 2009 and the second batch of 120 was signed in 2011 for $470 million.
  • Aszerbaijan100 T-90S (option for 100 more)[55]
  • India currently operates up to 620 T-90 which were procured in three separate orders. Two batches (310 tanks and knockdown kits in 2000 and a further 300 in 2006) were purchased from Russia. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) at Avadi has delivered 24 tanks in 2009-10; 51 in 2010-11; another 50 were supposed to be delivered in 2012. A further 1,000 were to be produced locally by 2020. Of those, the first batch of 10 were delivered in August 2009. Rs 10,000-crore purchase of 354 new T-90MS tanks for six tank regiments for the China border has been approved. This takes total of T-90 tanks to 2011.
  • In 2007, there were about 334 T-90 tanks serving in the Russian Ground Forces and seven T-90 tanks in the Navy. Some 31 new T-90 tanks entered service in 2007, and 60 in 2008. Russia operates 550 T-90A as of 2013.
  • Turkmenistan ordered 10 T-90S tanks over 2010 for approximately $30 million and a further 30 tanks.
  • Uganda: 44 T-90SA
 
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I just run over this topic via goggle search and had the feeling to write some comments because the ammount of BS claims made here are anoing...

1. the T-90 is NOT cheap!
You all have the planed Russian Army price of $1.3million in the head(thats flys around in the internet) if you talk about cheap T-90...
Fact is not a single T-90 was sold for this price... befor the production even started the price was corrected to $1.8million each unit just because of increased rare material prices...
Very early russian Army T-90 costs $2.3million and were no new build tanks but upgraded T-72B ...
In 2011 Algeria payed $5.5million for partly build T-90 kits which they had to finish themself!!!
In 2011 a Leo2 A6 was $5.7million including service, training units and gurantee (the only tank in the world that comes with a factory gurantee on engine gearbox running gear!)
2. the range of the Leo2 is 500km not 350km
3. Leo2 has zerro problems with high slopes (I have driven one and know what I am talking about!)

T-90 vs Leo2 A6 or Leo2 A7+

FACTS... vs russian wet fantasy

1. Leo2 much more powerfull gun that could hit bejoned 3500m

2. now the T-90 noobs come up with ATGM and 5km kill range of the T-90
Leopard is since years able to adop the ISRAEL LAHAT ATGM system that fires ATGM through the gun tube of the Leo2, LAHAT has up to 8km range and declass the T.90 system in any possible way... and as a big plus it has active jam systems that turns of all active defence systems of the T-90 like SCHTORA or Kontakt5


3. Leo2 is faster and more mobile thanks to higher overall power much more torque (Power weight ratio Leo2 24.1hp/to T-90 most powerfull engine 20.4hp/to) and much lower ground preassure (not the overall weight counts...the weight per square cm or inch count and thx to the extrem large track footprint the Leo2 has the lowest ground preassure of all modern tanks...and the highest ground clearence which allows him to drive through mud the T-90 cant take because he would sink in to much and would sit on his chassie earlyer...

T-90 in mud

Leo2 in deep mud

what most guys here tend to forget.... not a single in service T-90 runs in the specs and engine trim the weapon show T-90MS does..

In 2017Russia has only 350 T-90 in service and all are T-90A or T-90K... no T-90MS or similar high end verson

Russia chanceled all T-90 orders in 2010. They continue to upgrade some T-72B to T-90 specs they lack the money to buy more or upgrade more... and they want to buy some T-14 Armata(so far only 16 pre production models for field tests)...which they only can buy in small numbers... so far they ordered only 100...

So 350 russian T-90A and T-90K face 350 Leo2 A6 and Leo2 A7+ of the German Army

Algeria runs T-90SA (exportversion of the T-90A)
Azerbjina runs T-90S (exportversion of the base T-90)
India runs T-90S and T-90MS (India is the only customer running a huge number of T-90 with over 2000 the majority of all produced T-90 went to india)
Uganda runs T-90 base models

just to throw some petrol in the fire :D

and as a little sidenot in 2016 the german Army Leopard2 A6 smashed the competition vs US M1A2Sep II, Leo2 A5 from Denmark, Leo2A5 from Poland, Ariete from Italy and M-84 from Slovenia

 
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Leo2 has zerro problems with high slopes (I have driven one and know what I am talking about!)

What is the truth in an other post you claim to have driven Leopard I 28 years ago !

Are you an fake account ?
 
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1. the T-90 is NOT cheap!
You all have the planed Russian Army price of $1.3million in the head(thats flys around in the internet) if you talk about cheap T-90...
Fact is not a single T-90 was sold for this price... befor the production even started the price was corrected to $1.8million each unit just because of increased rare material prices...

-The first Russian t-90's (known as t-72UB back then) for the Russian army costed $1.2 million, however, the Russian army enjoy a discount.
-In 2007, India ordered 347 t-90's for $1.23 billion ($3.5 milion a peace) and those were export versions of the the t-90a.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/t-90.htm

-The more modern t-90MS is worth about $4.5 million (India ordered 464 t-90MS for $2.1 billion in 2016)
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ombat-aircraft-defence-ministry/1/804823.html (be advised; this website does not allow ad-blocker)

For comparison the leopard 2:
-in 2007 Canada ordered 100 leopard 2's for $5.7 million a piece (however, those were used tanks from Germany and the Netherlands) I think it is a little misleading to go for information from deals with leopard 2's, as most of them are used tanks.
http://defense-update.com/newscast/0407/news/160407_leo2.htm

-In 2010 it was estimated that leopards 2A7+ would cost $8.9 million a piece, this is now estimated to be $10 million in today exhcange rates.
http://www.deagel.com/Armored-Vehicles/Leopard-2-A7_a000451005.aspx

So for comparison, a t-90MS costs (as of 2016) $4.5 million and a leopard 2A7 costs up to $10 million, thus the t-90 being cheaper compared to a leopard 2 isn't complete fantasy.


3. Leo2 is faster and more mobile thanks to higher overall power much more torque (Power weight ratio Leo2 24.1hp/to T-90 most powerfull engine 20.4hp/to) and much lower ground preassure (not the overall weight counts...the weight per square cm or inch count and thx to the extrem large track footprint the Leo2 has the lowest ground preassure of all modern tanks...and the highest ground clearence which allows him to drive through mud the T-90 cant take because he would sink in to much and would sit on his chassie earlyer...


T-90 in mud
I guess it happens to the best, doesn't it? ;) (atleast the m1 Abrams got out eventually)



Performance wise, I am not disputing the leopard 2 at all; it is one of the best tanks in the world, but I wouldn't underestimate the t-90 either. :yes4:


and as a little sidenot in 2016 the german Army Leopard2 A6 smashed the competition vs US M1A2Sep II, Leo2 A5 from Denmark, Leo2A5 from Poland, Ariete from Italy and M-84 from Slovenia

In 2017, the Austrians kicked German and American @ss with their leopard 2a4's (against m1a2's and leopard 2a6's) :sarcastic:
https://www.businessinsider.nl/nato...g-tank-europe-2017-5/?international=true&r=US

 
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-The first Russian t-90's (known as t-72UB back then) for the Russian army costed $1.2 million, however, the Russian army enjoy a discount.
-In 2007, India ordered 347 t-90's for $1.23 billion ($3.5 milion a peace) and those were export versions of the the t-90a.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/t-90.htm

-The more modern t-90MS is worth about $4.5 million (India ordered 464 t-90MS for $2.1 billion in 2016)
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ombat-aircraft-defence-ministry/1/804823.html (be advised; this website does not allow ad-blocker)

For comparison the leopard 2:
-in 2007 Canada ordered 100 leopard 2's for $5.7 million a piece (however, those were used tanks from Germany and the Netherlands) I think it is a little misleading to go for information from deals with leopard 2's, as most of them are used tanks.
http://defense-update.com/newscast/0407/news/160407_leo2.htm

-In 2010 it was estimated that leopards 2A7+ would cost $8.9 million a piece, this is now estimated to be $10 million in today exhcange rates.
http://www.deagel.com/Armored-Vehicles/Leopard-2-A7_a000451005.aspx

So for comparison, a t-90MS costs (as of 2016) $4.5 million and a leopard 2A7 costs up to $10 million, thus the t-90 being cheaper compared to a leopard 2 isn't complete fantasy.



I guess it happens to the best, doesn't it? ;) (atleast the m1 Abrams got out eventually)



Performance wise, I am not disputing the leopard 2 at all; it is one of the best tanks in the world, but I wouldn't underestimate the t-90 either. :yes4:




In 2017, the Austrians kicked German and American @ss with their leopard 2a4's (against m1a2's and leopard 2a6's) :sarcastic:
https://www.businessinsider.nl/nato...g-tank-europe-2017-5/?international=true&r=US



All depends on training and crew skill. I bet a Turkish LEO - NG or a M-60 T could have done it with a professional expetienced crew .You can give a weak crew without experience LEO 2 A7 they will fail against old FOXES.
 
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In 2017, the Austrians kicked German and American @ss with their leopard 2a4's (against m1a2's and leopard 2a6's) :sarcastic:
https://www.businessinsider.nl/nato...g-tank-europe-2017-5/?international=true&r=US


I hope you know that strong tank challenge is done in many parts and only 2 are tank shooting (which the Leo2 A4 did not win)

Tank Challenge tests..

offensive tank shooting in platoon size
defensive tank shooting in platoon size
tank ID... you need to know who is friend or enemy
personal firearm shooting
recovery of a tank hit by IED under NBC protection
tank driving course
first aid for a badly wounded
leading Artillery fire by TC
track repair timed (here our friends from Austria cheated badly by useing civil electric screw driver)
physical fitness of crew (ammunition carry)

that you lol about Leo2 A4 only shows that you know nothing at all about tanks... the European tank challenge is no tank compare it is a crew training level compare... a highly skilled crew can win this with a old Leo1 A5... thats the reason why Ukrain had send a T-64 not a more modern Oplot... the crews from Ukraina won a intern competition befor send to Germany and they won it on a T-64...because for most crew skills it is unimportant what tank you crew.... a idiot in a Leo2 A7Q does not get smarter because he sit in a more modern tank... if you cant ID enemy tanks... cant rescue wounded soldiers.. cant lead a artillery strike... cant recover or repair a tank u are worthless
 
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that you lol about Leo2 A4 only shows that you know nothing at all about tanks... the European tank challenge is no tank compare it is a crew training level compare... a highly skilled crew can win this with a old Leo1 A5... thats the reason why Ukrain had send a T-64 not a more modern Oplot... the crews from Ukraina won a intern competition befor send to Germany and they won it on a T-64...because for most crew skills it is unimportant what tank you crew.... a idiot in a Leo2 A7Q does not get smarter because he sit in a more modern tank... if you cant ID enemy tanks... cant rescue wounded soldiers.. cant lead a artillery strike... cant recover or repair a tank u are worthless
I used the 'sarcastic laugh' for a reason. I did not say at any point that the leopard 2a4 is better or anything, I just said that the Austrians won with leopard 2a4 over Germany and Usa in overall. You said that: "and as a little sidenot in 2016 the german Army Leopard2 A6 smashed the competition vs US M1A2Sep II, Leo2 A5 from Denmark, Leo2A5 from Poland, Ariete from Italy and M-84 from Slovenia" I have interpret that as you saying that the Leopard 2a6 is better than those other tanks (considerring this thread is a t-90 vs leopard 2 d1ck measuring contest), hence why my post about the Austrian leopard 2a4 winning overall.
Never claimed to be an expert in anything, don't know much about defense related stuff, I am just interested in it and want to learn about it.

track repair timed (here our friends from Austria cheated badly by useing civil electric screw driver)

Really? I didn't know that... Can you provide a source to confirm this?
 
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Really? I didn't know that... Can you provide a source to confirm this?

There are tonns of videos about the 2017 SETC ...in one you see the Austrian crews working on the tracks in competition useing huge red civil electric screw driver to lock and unlock the track.... with standart hand tools that are orginal fit to the tank a pain in the *** job (did it a lot during my military service time)


at video time 0:45min you see and hear them working on the tracks with the huge red electric screw driver... just imagine how much time they have won in this single action...
 
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BTW what the crew in the video did at 0:45min we called in german "Kette kloppen/klopfen" and "Kette knacken "Kette klopfen" (track knocking) is hammering the endconectors on the track (or track pads both called the same)... the sledge hammer is nicknamed "MOTTEK" ... thats miner slang from the Ruhr area ... just means "big hard thing"... yes they did not only mean the sledge hammer with it :D
"Kette knacken" (track crack) is the controlling of the 3 screws each track link (3 screws x 82track links on each side x 2 tracks = 492 screws) every screw has to be controlled if screwed firm enough...with a torque wrensh... each screw 750Nm with a 1m torque wrensh... 492 pushing or pulling 75kg till the torque wrensh made the knack noise after it reached the right torque.. as you can imagine this was very popular maintenance work :sarcastic:
 
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Those sneaky Austrians!
I went deeper into youtube and found a extended showing of the Austrians using an electrical tool

Meanwhile the Polish were struggling: "k*rwa"

And the Germans (in 2016)

I didn't really find any other segments of repairings, but if electrical tools were allowed, they surely would have used military themed ones, not flashy red ones
 
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