The strange silence surrounding Indian Military exercises

[deckingraj]

Let's play nukey nukey.. Only over 2 billion souls will be lost n this part of the world will be a quiet neighbourhood for a few billion years..

the way population is exploding in the world....perhaps world will say thanks dear!!....

 

[Stephen Cohen]

India is NOT impressed by Pakistani TNWs

The writer is Ex IDSA Ali Ahmed | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

What he is suggesting is that it is time to call the Bluff on these " Nukey Nukey " threats

 

[dadeechi]

Good you understand my point. But we don't understand yours.
Pakistan saying that their nukes werewe're fired by rogues is worse than saying the Army fired them. Because saying Rogues fired them means no control on weapons and that will have knock down effect on morale of Pakistani people and Army in a war.

About not accepting dead bodies I am not sure if that is true but thing is Kargil war was never officially over . No peace treaty or prisoner exchange treaty was signed between the two countries. Nawaz was summoned by USA,s Clinton, got bullied and spanked, came home and ordered pullout from Kargil.
Since no official treaty was signed, Indian soldiers killed many Pakistani soldiers on the way back, like shooting in the back. Most Pakistani casualties we're not in the war but during pullout which Army assumed that is a planned and agreed event between both countries political leadership, but Nawaz sucked at that and only bluffed the army into pulling out.
That's why Musharraf got so angry and kicked him out of government and imposed martial law.

What was the world's reaction or action against Pakistan for AQK or OBL or 26/11 incidents? Nothing.

Even when Pakistan uses NW on India and claims that it was an act of "Rogue" elements, World will just turn a blind eye. Simple. It would be up to India to react or not.

 

[MilSpec]

In other words, the Indian Military and leadership is ok with all out nuclear holocaust in the region. Not sure if its an answer or utter madness.

India won't respond, commons man's life's pretty cheap here....Mumbai II's response will be Dossier II. so on and so forth.

Let's play nukey nukey.. Only over 2 billion souls will be lost n this part of the world will be a quiet neighbourhood for a few billion years..

Nopes,
Indian military will remain barrack trophy.
For a repeat of Mumbai There will be no Proactive defense, no air int, no strategic strikes, no surgical strikes, no tac nuke response no nuclear holocaust and blah blah.

For a Mumbai style attack, there will be dossiers, (and a possible Saif ali Khan movie spy movie)
For Hijackings - Prisoner exchange and ransoms (And a possible ajay devgan movie with alternate ending)
For embassy attacks - MEA Statement ( and a possibleSecond string actor and debutant director thriller movie)
For bus station/temple/train Bombings- NIA Investigations (And a possible psuedo alternate genre movie starring Om puri or some veteran actor)
For Border Violations- Unlateral peace talks (NDTV special report)
For Kargil styled op - Lakshya II (with a funky Hrithik dance number)

these are Indian options, none of them mandates a Pakistani tac nuke response.

Somebody threw a Non State actor using - Nuke- That is not even a remote possibility, why would Pakistani deepstate let its most cost effective assets use such expensive toys, nature of these assets is being cost effective.

 

[HRK]

A very accurate summary of 'Indian Mentality & Delusion'

the will of the Indian people which is to destroy Pakistan before it made any moves.

We set for full and powerful nuclear retaliation so there won't be any other nuclear attacks on our people.

That India is far superior and in a verge of becoming a global military and economic super power and where is Pakistan?

Soon India will take its chances to wipe out entire terror hubs in P O K

And the punch line (I love it .....)

Pakistan playing a very dangerous and very premature game.

 

[Perpendicular]

Basically diplomat journos don't understand the will of the Indian people which is to destroy Pakistan before it made any moves. These TNW if used on our forces India won't be using TNW. We set for full and powerful nuclear retaliation so there won't be any other nuclear attacks on our people. If Pakistan thinks that it can get way with Terror nurturing with these kind kids talk about using nuclear weapons then it's highly mistaken. And I don't think Pakistan strategic planners are soo dumb either. May be these are to keep their country intact or to keep their people away from ground reality. That India is far superior and in a verge of becoming a global military and economic super power and where is Pakistan? The way foreign journos critical about Indian not peeing in toilets or India reaching Mars or commercial space power is laughable.

Soon India will take its chances to wipe out entire terror hubs in P O K. And you will be very surprised to know that there won't be any nuclear retaliation as there won't be any TNW.
Pakistan playing a very dangerous and very premature game.


Won't matter who use it...

Only weak link in all of it is ours so called nuclear retaliatory policy. What purpose it serves when it has failed to deter pakistan from moving a step forward in lowering its threshold.
So in other words pakistan directly or indirectly carries out an attack, we move our soldiers across the border which is responded by TNW by pakistan, which follows a nuclear exchange. So who is the bigger loser in all of it. India
India should let go of this "no first use policy" BS. Need similar mentality where , one has to kill a lunatic on a suicide mission, before it harms you.

We are spineless morons when it comes to our Pakistan Policy.

Totally agreed.

 

[Abingdonboy]

In other words, the Indian Military and leadership is ok with all out nuclear holocaust in the region. Not sure if its an answer or utter madness.

I'm sorry but this logic again?

It is obediently clear that the CSD or any other military action would ONLY be in response to a terrorist attack (or some other misadventure) traced back to Pakistan. Pakistan has been engaging in such a proxy war against India for decades putting its faith in your nuclear weapons (accompanied by an officially stated low nuclear threshold) to create a deterrent to India retaliating using conventional means.


No attack on India (the country with a NFU policy) means NO possible threat of a "nuclear holocaust" or any other undesirable outcome.


Many Pakistanis here seem to think they can poke and poke at India (through infiltration attempts and the occasional mass atrocity in an Indian city) and India should just sit idle and take it. The moment there is talk of India taking steps to make such provocations untenable- it is India that is the aggressor. This is a truly twisted mentality.

Let's play nukey nukey.. Only over 2 billion souls will be lost n this part of the world will be a quiet neighbourhood for a few billion years..

Who wants to play that game? The nation with a stated NFU policy or the nation with the fastest growing nuclear stockpile in the world whose leaders constantly issues nuclear threats at India?

 

[Joe Shearer]

How would India know if the nuclear weapon was used by rogue elements or Pakistan's military?

From Kargil's experience, India knows that Pakistan would take the stand that it was rogue elements and not their soldiers.

It has been a repeated point by the Pakistani military and the Pakistani administrative establishment that Pakistan's nuclear devices are under tight supervision and control. We are entitled to take them at their work, and to assume any nuclear devices used within their territory or to their benefit are devices described by them as under their control.

At Kargil. It was "muhahid force " which Is a border guarding paramilitary force not a rogue group. Indian media and much of Pakistani media are too dumb to understand that.

True.

Count me under the dumb ones. The Pakistani military consistently swore that it had nothing to do with it, and that people armed and controlled by Pakistan had nothing to do with it.

Now your interpretation. Very creative, btw.

Basically diplomat journos don't understand the will of the Indian people which is to destroy Pakistan before it made any moves. These TNW if used on our forces India won't be using TNW. We set for full and powerful nuclear retaliation so there won't be any other nuclear attacks on our people. If Pakistan thinks that it can get way with Terror nurturing with these kind kids talk about using nuclear weapons then it's highly mistaken. And I don't think Pakistan strategic planners are soo dumb either. May be these are to keep their country intact or to keep their people away from ground reality. That India is far superior and in a verge of becoming a global military and economic super power and where is Pakistan? The way foreign journos critical about Indian not peeing in toilets or India reaching Mars or commercial space power is laughable.

Soon India will take its chances to wipe out entire terror hubs in P O K. And you will be very surprised to know that there won't be any nuclear retaliation as there won't be any TNW.
Pakistan playing a very dangerous and very premature game.


Won't matter who use it...

This has my personal vote for the stupidest and most out of touch post made in - shall we say a month?

 

[Indus Falcon]

At Kargil. It was "muhahid force " which Is a border guarding paramilitary force not a rogue group. Indian media and much of Pakistani media are too dumb to understand that.

I think you meant "mujahid force" which contains reserves as well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Good you understand my point. But we don't understand yours.
Pakistan saying that their nukes werewe're fired by rogues is worse than saying the Army fired them. Because saying Rogues fired them means no control on weapons and that will have knock down effect on morale of Pakistani people and Army in a war.

About not accepting dead bodies I am not sure if that is true(1) but thing is Kargil war was never officially over (2) . No peace treaty or prisoner exchange treaty was signed between the two countries. Nawaz was summoned by USA,s Clinton, got bullied and spanked, came home and ordered pullout from Kargil.
Since no official treaty was signed, Indian soldiers killed many Pakistani soldiers on the way back, like shooting in the back.(3) Most Pakistani casualties we're not in the war but during pullout which Army assumed that is a planned and agreed event between both countries political leadership, but Nawaz sucked at that and only bluffed the army into pulling out.
That's why Musharraf got so angry and kicked him out of government and imposed martial law.

Please give us all a break and refrain from these creative exercises 'interpreting' what happened.
(1) Please check the public records of the times. This was a public fact.
(2) How was something to be declared over, or peace treaty or prisoner exchange treaty to be signed, when war was not declared in the first place? It was the Pakistan Army and establishment's stand right through the conflict that they had nothing to do with it, it was independent non-state actors who were sitting out there, and so on, until evidence started turning up in massive quantities: paybooks, correspondence, diaries, on and on and on.
(3) How was it agreed between both countries' political leadership, when those leaders never even met? Or communicated?
Your views on this are fanciful and delusionary. Nobody in the government was bluffing the Army.

In other words, the Indian Military and leadership is ok with all out nuclear holocaust in the region. Not sure if its an answer or utter madness.

I think there has been a lot of speculation, mostly fanboy speculation, about something beyond Cold Start. Nothing has emerged yet. It is difficult whether to categorise this state of affairs as a deep and well-kept secret, in which case your remarks apply and we all need to worry a lot, or as a fanboy creation, or an extrapolation of silence to mean that it is a meaningful silence, in which case pass the biscuits.

 

[dadeechi]

It has been a repeated point by the Pakistani military and the Pakistani administrative establishment that Pakistan's nuclear devices are under tight supervision and control. We are entitled to take them at their work, and to assume any nuclear devices used within their territory or to their benefit are devices described by them as under their control.

Thanked for the above

 

[SQ8]

I think there has been a lot of speculation, mostly fanboy speculation, about something beyond Cold Start. Nothing has emerged yet. It is difficult whether to categorise this state of affairs as a deep and well-kept secret, in which case your remarks apply and we all need to worry a lot, or as a fanboy creation, or an extrapolation of silence to mean that it is a meaningful silence, in which case pass the biscuits.

Much as there was speculation among truths and fiction during the cold war, speculations that on both official and unofficial levels nearly led to war more than once. But the difference was that leaving with Europe sitting the middle of it all, the two main antagonists per se were thousands of miles apart with massive uninhabited and generally pristine land areas that they considered as refuges against radiation and nuclear Armageddon; a possibility of survival in case war did break out and the illusion that there might be a winner.
Because it was clear that in case a war did occur, Europe would be rendered uninhabitable but sections of the North American countryside and the Siberian and central Asian plains would still be suitable for survival.

Here, we sit eyeball to eyeball.. our population centres much like Europe all grouped around natural resources; we are ripe for massive humanitarian disaster.. leave alone the idea of "winning". People have this delusion(due to their ignorance..wilful at times) that nuclear weapons just explode and then all is hunky dory. Sometimes, I have the demonic wish that we do have it out and let those that wish for this disaster suffer.

I'm sorry but this logic again?

It is obediently clear that the CSD or any other military action would ONLY be in response to a terrorist attack (or some other misadventure) traced back to Pakistan. Pakistan has been engaging in such a proxy war against India for decades putting its faith in your nuclear weapons (accompanied by an officially stated low nuclear threshold) to create a deterrent to India retaliating using conventional means.


No attack on India (the country with a NFU policy) means NO possible threat of a "nuclear holocaust" or any other undesirable outcome.


Many Pakistanis here seem to think they can poke and poke at India (through infiltration attempts and the occasional mass atrocity in an Indian city) and India should just sit idle and take it. The moment there is talk of India taking steps to make such provocations untenable- it is India that is the aggressor. This is a truly twisted mentality.

Im sorry, but the sanctimonious attitude again is really not surprising which is why I will not bother reading beyond the first sentence to type this reply.

even if it perhaps is not the most morally righteous path to follow.

Nothing new for a state since the times of when states existed.

 

[MilSpec]

I think there has been a lot of speculation, mostly fanboy speculation, about something beyond Cold Start. Nothing has emerged yet. It is difficult whether to categorise this state of affairs as a deep and well-kept secret, in which case your remarks apply and we all need to worry a lot, or as a fanboy creation, or an extrapolation of silence to mean that it is a meaningful silence, in which case pass the biscuits.

To me, CSD is not a battle management strategy but a deployment approach.
I often wonder why would there be one single "doctrine" that's an answer to everything, I am sure the military planners have solution strategies for different threat scenarios. CSD to me doesn't de-fang Pak military power but provides a rapid deployment approach to inflict maximum damage to the enemy, if the objective is just to inflict damage in a limited time frame, air interdiction approach that is the preface of ground troop deployment would do the job.
By the time world notices, India can call unilateral ceasefire, and masquerade it as surgical strikes as a measured response, run CAP's around the clock and let them respond - drawing Pak forces into a escalation. - If they bite- then respond, if not sit back and let it brew.

i.e. if we have the stomach to absorb losses - and can get out of the dossier business.

 

[Spectre]

To me, CSD is not a battle management strategy but a deployment approach.
I often wonder why would there be one single "doctrine" that's an answer to everything, I am sure the military planners have solution strategies for different threat scenarios. CSD to me doesn't de-fang Pak military power but provides a rapid deployment approach to inflict maximum damage to the enemy, if the objective is just to inflict damage in a limited time frame, air interdiction approach that is the preface of ground troop deployment would do the job.
By the time world notices, India can call unilateral ceasefire, and masquerade it as surgical strikes as a measured response, run CAP's around the clock and let them respond - drawing Pak forces into a escalation. - If they bite- then respond, if not sit back and let it brew.t

i.e. if we have the stomach to absorb losses - and can get out of the dossier business.

Cost Benefit Ratio has to permit any action - unlike us, Defense Bureaucrats are scroogingly cautious and MEA mindful of the perception issues. The ends would have to justify the means - if whatever action we take can be projected to have just a temporary impact on enemy intent and plans then perhaps it is better to pursue non military means.

Nuclear Umbrella while it does save both sides from all out annihilation or significant territorial alterations, it also permits for such proxy wars and tiny cuts beyond the threshold - thus is the essence of stability -instability paradox.

We can take the threshold lower of-course but that wouldn't play well with our international aspirations to be taken as a responsible nuclear power and potential SC member.

My friend - it is a murky world of give and take and for the moment taking the macro view -diplomatic offensive and as @Didact suggested maintaining the balance of terror meaning fighting in the covert domain are the only tools in our arsenal, I just pray that we don't get another Gujral who would further handicap us in this regard

 

[third eye]

@ Subject : What is the concern if things are not put out in the public domain ? Its not meant to be.

In other words, the Indian Military and leadership is ok with all out nuclear holocaust in the region. Not sure if its an answer or utter madness.

I don't understand why this question is being asked ? What options does the IA have ?

Faced with an adversary whose statements are prefixed & suffixed with the word " Nuclear' I cannot see any concern in both being prepared and practicing contingencies for use of similar weapons in retaliation.