The Status of Pakistan's Radar Network During US raid

[Ahmad]

At the end of the day, something happened that shouldnt have happened.

 

[air marshal]

Operation Geronimo and PAF
May 7, 2011

by Kaiser Tufail

With the latest brief that appeared today inThe News (also available on Facebook - PAF Falcons Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More), PAF's case has been totally messed up and it has been put on the back foot unnecessarily. It was simply bad PR; an official press release would have been far better, with no possibility of laymen's interpretation and distortion of facts by uninformed journalists about matters technical. I have been following the matter over the past few days and would like to offer the factual story as far as is known, without trying to cover any mistakes of my parent service.

On the night of 2 May, four near-stealth/low observable MH-60 helicopters ingressed unobserved from Bagram to Abbotabad. (Some US websites displaying animated action include 2 Chinooks, which, to my mind does not make sense as it nullifies the rationale of the other two low observable MH-60s, unless the Chinooks also had stealth features). The helicopter package was able to exploit the blind areas inherent in radars over hilly/broken terrain, while their own low-observable structure helped no less. (It is not true that PAF radars were being given a rest to conserve their life, as has been reported in The News.) It must, however, be noted that it is the PAF's AEW Erieyes that are not operated round-the-clock during peacetime, else we would quickly wear them out.

A package of 6-7 support aircraft including EC-130E/H, MC-130, AC-130, E-3 AWACS and, most ominously, a pair of fighters of unknown type, were orbiting in FATA area. It was easy to masquerade this package with the usual retinue of half a dozen Predators, Reapers and Global Surveyors that have been flying in the same area, with PAF clearance, over the last several years. There was no question of this package arousing any suspicion on this particular night.

As the operation got under way, no Pak Army unit was present. US assessment was that local Army units in Abbotabad would be able to react not before one hour at the earliest (to take orders and draw their weapons). It was also surmised that armed soldiers at quarter guards, guard rooms and sentry posts would not leave their beats.

When the firing started, local commanders at Abbotabad informed GHQ, who in turn got in touch with AHQ. The latter immediately scrambled a pair of F-16s but by the time these got to Abbotabad in about 15 minutes, the operation was over and the helicopters had departed. Without any help from ground radar, the F-16s did not know where to look, as they had no idea that the incursion had been from the west. As a matter of fact, an intrusion from the east was uppermost in their minds. The helicopters once again flew low, through radar gaps and were not spotted either by ground radar or the F-16s. The reality dawned too late that we do not have an antidote to a stealth raiding package. USA carrying out such an attack was the biggest surprise for the PAF as well as the Army.

In some ways, the PAF F-16s were lucky not to have picked the helicopters on their radars, or else the nearby patrolling US fighters would have made short work of them with their long range missiles, what with full communications and radar jamming support available to them.

To say that it was a failure of the PAF to react effectively is completely incorrect and unfair. It was simply beyond its technical means to handle fifth-generation warfare vs USA. If it is a failure, it is at the national policy level whereby US was compelled to sideline its much-ballyhooed ally because of trust deficit.

PAF Falcons Forums • View topic - Operation Geronimo and PAF

 

[zavis2003]

i dont think that PAF has such silent systems , before that i was proud of paf and i was of opinion that it is prepared force , now it is in my notice taht paf radars are turned off , oh my god what are they for if they are off , some day indians will intrude like this and PAF will says " our fighters fuel tanks were just evacuated for overhauling" , This incident has really put down our " the symbol of pride for the nation".

I am not feeling secure and i think that most pakistaniz too feel like the same , everyday many people are killed in drone attacks and most of them are innocents who even dont know what the terrorism is ,

 

[ramu]

After the raid, it was widely reported that PAF’s radar system was jammed or rendered ineffective by US forces as they crossed into Pakistan. However, PAF spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani informed DawnNews on Saturday, that the surveillance system was not switched off as US Navy SEALs entered Pakistan’s airspace between the nights of May 2nd and 3rd.

Conflicting reports from PAF. Who in the established is to be believed when it comes to Pakistan? None.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,

It is not the resignation we need---it is the execution that we need----these three need to be executed----. That is would be the first step towards the cleansing of this spot----that will also set the standard for the millitary and other services.

 

[nwmalik]

Question from experts:
how do you know if and when your radars are jammed?
If u come to know can you do something about it?
note i am not talking of AWACS

 

[Markus]

Sir,

It is not the resignation we need---it is the execution that we need----these three need to be executed----. That is would be the first step towards the cleansing of this spot----that will also set the standard for the millitary and other services.

IMO we are going overboard on this.

Everybody needs to understand the massive pressure that they are under from the Americans.

It can be very much a possibility that the top management actually knew nothing about OBL and its location and instead the middle and lower rung commanders could be complicit with the terrorists. I had read somewhere that the young captains and majors from the army were sympathetic towards the militants and were not favoring that they fight them.

 

[killeragent]

The most amazing thing is that choppers reached deep into pakistan, just 35 miles away from Islamabad border and where not even detected by even single radar system leave that the radars on border were turned off.. arent there any radars , anti-ballistic system radars, airforce stations with radar on the way to catch them ..



If its so, than am really happy for if any indian presence in afghan and our airforce station in Tajikistan.l.Great strategy

 

[mautkimaut]

Bollywood daydreamers attack-a new version of Mars Attack. All the aircraft of the world would be deployed in the Pakistani airspace-Rafale, Eurofighter, F35, SU35, Mirage 2000 etc except the LCA. LOL. Pakistan would surrender and offer to build toilet and latrine in India for free as a result of this surrender.

India does have Su-30 and is going to buy the Rafale or eurofighters.
LCA is for point defence and so would not enter enemy air space.
F-35 may be operated by Indian Navy..

 

[Rank]

We need Hitler like Leader who will stand all these B**** and SHOT @ HEAD!! include Kiyani, Rao, Pasha and also with Govt Who is actually sleeping and busy in seet sapatay!!! damn these ****** rulling our Country... damn

 

[Markus]

The most amazing thing is that choppers reached deep into pakistan, just 35 miles away from Islamabad border and where not even detected by even single radar system leave that the radars on border were turned off.. arent there any radars , anti-ballistic system radars, airforce stations with radar on the way to catch them ..



If its so, than am really happy for if any indian presence in afghan and our airforce station in Tajikistan.l.Great strategy

Pakistani members say that their radars are mostly concentrated on the Indian border and the Afghan border airspace has many empty pockets which can be penetrated.

 

[Patriot]

The most amazing thing is that choppers reached deep into pakistan, just 35 miles away from Islamabad border and where not even detected by even single radar system leave that the radars on border were turned off.. arent there any radars , anti-ballistic system radars, airforce stations with radar on the way to catch them ..



If its so, than am really happy for if any indian presence in afghan and our airforce station in Tajikistan.l.Great strategy

Yes u should be happy to know that Pakistan knows its short comings now and will put radars in place where they were not any before.

 

[President Camacho]

When the US choppers followed terrorists into Pakistani territory, NATO supplies were blocked for over 10 days and the trucks were set afire.

That was the second time the US had gotten inside Pakistan, and Gen. Kayani himself had issued a warning.

Then came the drone attacks, and again the US was warned. There was so much speculation and talk about using the Pakistani fighter jets to bring down the drones.

And even before all this, this piece was published in May last year:

US military has already completed “dry exercises” for launching a unilateral strike inside Pakistan if a terrorist attack in America in the future is traced to that country, a media report said on Sunday.

Quoting diplomatic sources, it said the trial run for a unilateral strike in Pakistan, however, did not involve US troops. “Instead, it projected computer simulations of such an attack with an assessment of a possible counterattack and of the potential resistance US troops might face if they entered the Pakistani soil,” the report said.

A diplomatic source told Dawn that the us decision to once again explore possibility of a unilateral military strike is not a threat. “It aims at convincing Pakistanis that now is the time to uproot extremists. A failure to do so may lead to an attack on the US soil, which, in turn, could lead to an American military strike inside Pakistan,” he said.

Diplomatic sources in Washington also observed that the decision to leak to the media the US military’s plans for a unilateral strike aimed at “persuading any elements in the power structure in Islamabad to do what is needed: share more intelligence, stop insisting that there are good Taliban and bad Taliban and to get serious about uprooting all jihadi groups.”

If all these incidents couldn't be enough for the PAF to be extremely vigil and keep their radars working overtime, then what would it be?

Sorry to say this, but the Air Chief Marshal is lying to the public. If radars were really turned off on 2nd May (Choppers entered Pakistani territory on 1st May), then it was a deliberate act !

 

[Developereo]

Operation Geronimo and PAF
May 7, 2011

by Kaiser Tufail

With the latest brief that appeared today inThe News (also available on Facebook - PAF Falcons Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More), PAF's case has been totally messed up and it has been put on the back foot unnecessarily. It was simply bad PR; an official press release would have been far better, with no possibility of laymen's interpretation and distortion of facts by uninformed journalists about matters technical. I have been following the matter over the past few days and would like to offer the factual story as far as is known, without trying to cover any mistakes of my parent service.

On the night of 2 May, four near-stealth/low observable MH-60 helicopters ingressed unobserved from Bagram to Abbotabad. (Some US websites displaying animated action include 2 Chinooks, which, to my mind does not make sense as it nullifies the rationale of the other two low observable MH-60s, unless the Chinooks also had stealth features). The helicopter package was able to exploit the blind areas inherent in radars over hilly/broken terrain, while their own low-observable structure helped no less. (It is not true that PAF radars were being given a rest to conserve their life, as has been reported in The News.) It must, however, be noted that it is the PAF's AEW Erieyes that are not operated round-the-clock during peacetime, else we would quickly wear them out.

A package of 6-7 support aircraft including EC-130E/H, MC-130, AC-130, E-3 AWACS and, most ominously, a pair of fighters of unknown type, were orbiting in FATA area. It was easy to masquerade this package with the usual retinue of half a dozen Predators, Reapers and Global Surveyors that have been flying in the same area, with PAF clearance, over the last several years. There was no question of this package arousing any suspicion on this particular night.

As the operation got under way, no Pak Army unit was present. US assessment was that local Army units in Abbotabad would be able to react not before one hour at the earliest (to take orders and draw their weapons). It was also surmised that armed soldiers at quarter guards, guard rooms and sentry posts would not leave their beats.

When the firing started, local commanders at Abbotabad informed GHQ, who in turn got in touch with AHQ. The latter immediately scrambled a pair of F-16s but by the time these got to Abbotabad in about 15 minutes, the operation was over and the helicopters had departed. Without any help from ground radar, the F-16s did not know where to look, as they had no idea that the incursion had been from the west. As a matter of fact, an intrusion from the east was uppermost in their minds. The helicopters once again flew low, through radar gaps and were not spotted either by ground radar or the F-16s. The reality dawned too late that we do not have an antidote to a stealth raiding package. USA carrying out such an attack was the biggest surprise for the PAF as well as the Army.

In some ways, the PAF F-16s were lucky not to have picked the helicopters on their radars, or else the nearby patrolling US fighters would have made short work of them with their long range missiles, what with full communications and radar jamming support available to them.

To say that it was a failure of the PAF to react effectively is completely incorrect and unfair. It was simply beyond its technical means to handle fifth-generation warfare vs USA. If it is a failure, it is at the national policy level whereby US was compelled to sideline its much-ballyhooed ally because of trust deficit.

PAF Falcons Forums • View topic - Operation Geronimo and PAF

Out of the hundreds of (mostly emotional) posts about this raid, the above is the only useful and informative post.

 

[Jango]

if one radar is turned off even then you can spot the airspace from afghanistan to abbotabad.....there are three airbases enroute....peshawar,,pubbi and kamra and even tarbela can be counted...now a MI 17 has a 300 km radar....so there are three airbases....so were they dead?