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The spectacular surge of the Saudi female labor force (lesson for Pakistan)

I read your post and your valid points in regards to the unhealthy Western work to life balance does not apply to KSA or Arab societies. You are a Moroccan so you should be very familiar with Arab society. Family is the absolute key component in Arab culture and everything evolves around it. Unmarried women are looked as outcasts.

There is little sign of KSA adopting the harmful practices of the West and MbS is aware of this as are the Saudi Arabian people who are very familiar with Western society.

No sane Muslim and Arab woman will prefer a work career over raising a family.

But as I wrote a balance must be found. KSA has found that, Pakistan unfortunately not which shows.

Anyway economy is needed to raise large families otherwise you are creating neglected children which South Asia excels at.
I agree with you. But I do not think that KSA will stop at allowing women to participate in army in combat positions only. It will soon follow the US exemple and we will see mixed units and sexual liberation will make matters worse. I am afraid the outcome will not be good. America has long allowed women first in the army in non combat positions, then they lifted the ban, then they allowed perverts ( lgbt) in the army. It is a slippery slope. One sin leads to another. For example here in Morocco female soldiers are prohibited from Hijab. I am afraid that KSA will follow this path too. I hope not, but I cannot take it easy. Now look at the US, it organizes breafing for soldiers about sexual harassment and tolerant behavior toward perverts. If this is not moral degeneracy, then I don't know what else can be. Our countries are going steadily in the same path. I hope I am wrong but that is how I see it. Things will continue to go south for quite a while before we wake up to the disaster that is coming.
 
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Umm so i see people have different viewpoints here and that's fine imo, women can indeed contribute a lot to the economy of a nation. Shouldn't the onus be on them? i mean if they want to work and be independent?
I do agree with a comment above that a woman has maternal duties towards her child too and managing that with one's work life can get tricky but still forcing someone to follow a fixed path in 21st century?
Gay was originally a word borrowed from french 'gai' which means happy. But it has evolved to mean pervert or sodomist ( because inhabitants of Sodom city were the first in the world to practice the sin of homosexuality and it got renamed after them). So this is a sin that should not be refered to as anything related to happiness. Sin brings sadness and suffering, not happiness. One should choose his words carefully. They want to normalize sin by calling it good and unsuspecting names.
To this I am reminded of Indian Chief Justice's statement back when homosexuality was decriminalized in India "Societal morality cannot trump constitutional morality. societal morality cannot overturn fundamental rights of even a single individual" this was a landmark decision for a mostly conservative society like India.
 
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I will tell you. A doctor should benefit the society. But you cannot force a female doctor to work at the expense of her family life or her choice. If her family needs her more than society, only her can help her familiy, but society has plenty of women who are ready to help and contribute. The female doctor prefering to fulfill her family obligations is de facto contributing to society. You just cannot value this contribution economically, and it does not get included in statistics although it is essential. You cannot force all females to work to maximize economical benefit because you are diminishing societal stability.
Another thing. You have 2 people: A and B forming a team to do 3 tasks: task 1 that only person A can do, task 2 that only B can do and task 3 is common for both. You cannot make person A ignore completely task 1 to help person B in task 3, otherwise the team will accomplish task 3 but not 1, and this is everyday, so task 1 will never be completed. But if persons A and B respectively focused on task 1 and 2 and worked jointly to fulfill task 3, all tasks will be accomplished. So forcing women to contribute to economy like men do and making them ignore their unique roles that only them can do at home will result in essential family and society needs going unfulfilled at the price of a marginal economical growth, and it will surely backfire not only on the physical and mental health of women but on the whole society. Look at Germany and Scandinavia where women get wellfare benefits for educating and taking care of their kids at home, because their governments is recompensing their efforts and the value added by these women to society by forming intangible assets which are kids who are the future of the nation. I am looking at this with a multifocal point of view, but you refuse to see it from any point other than the capitalist view of maximizing economical benefit. I am again stressing that we indeed need women taking jobs and contributing to economy within their own means and considering their nature without neglecting their crucial and unique roles.

Firstly the hippocratic oath literally has the following line:

"I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings"

Their productive role is fullfilled by helping patients, not by sitting at home cooking meals for their husband or cleaning.

Secondly your whole argument is based on the principle that women are unable or incapable of doing the same jobs that men can do. I dont understand what basis this has since women are capable of fullfilling nearly every job role within modern society, can you even name me a single common profession which women are incapable of doing?
 
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Saudi women are extremely enterprising compared to their opposing sex counterparts.

Unfortunately for many muslim men that is unacceptable that they are lazy all talk slobs compared to their women whom they can only either hate or beat.
 
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Firstly the hippocratic oath literally has the following line:

"I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings"

Their productive role is fullfilled by helping patients, not by sitting at home cooking meals for their husband or cleaning.

Secondly your whole argument is based on the principle that women are unable or incapable of doing the same jobs that men can do. I dont understand what basis this has since women are capable of fullfilling nearly every job role within modern society, can you even name me a single common profession which women are incapable of doing?
First things first. I know the hippocratic oath because I am a final-year med student. Not bragging about it. But being a doctor does not mean you are helping patients 24/24 7/7. The oath is regulating the medical practice, as in working and taking care of patients. It does not apply off-call or if you are using the restroom. Doctors have personnal lives as well, and have special obligations towards themselves and their families too, not only patients. An unemployed doctor has no responsibility whatsoever about any patient in the hospital, but can help people in the street in case of emergency for exemple. But using the oath as a pretext to imply that all doctors should work regardless of their personnal lives or choice is a transgression and is limiting the freedom of human beings which they are before even they become doctors. We often neglect that they have basic rights like everyone in society. You went for the special case of physicians because it is easier to manipulate and force them to do things for the 'freater good'. Doctors are paid to do a function that is treating patients. If they do not they are not paid, but they are still doctors because they have the certification.
Second, there are many jobs out there that only men can do, ie. heavy construction work, soldiering, commando ops, firefighting, police SWAT, blacksmiths, car mechanics. Basically most dirty, heavy-duty, and hard jobs are dominated by men. You may find some females, but they are an exception, not the rule, and those who do these kinds of jobs are not brilliant at what they do. They do it only because they are forced or desperately need a job or just to brag about it being the first female mechanic or special operator in the media of course. And these women are more like men in their behavior, speech, and never feminine and modest women. This pattern is present even in the most egalitarian societies in the world ( scandinavia). Listen to what the canadian PhD Jordan Peterson says about it in youtube. He is a clinical psychologist and studied the phenomenon for more than 25 years. It remains a disparity between men and women even if society is egalitarian, because women will never be men and vice versa. You cannot force it. Listen to special ops colonels speaking about female recruits crumbling under pressure. The women existing in SOF community joined it only because of political pressure from above and the relaxation of physical standards, otherwise they would never have maked their way to there. Some jobs are better suited to men, some are better for women. Simple, but not many people seem to understand it. It is exactly the same as telling us that men cannot be baby-sitters or nurses. There are, but only a minority, and we should agree that these jobs are better suited for females. I would rather go out and rob people than being a baby-sitter even if paid $10 million per day. This is my nature you cannot blame me. You cannot give a female 60Kg and ask her to march 16km in 4 hours. She won't finish the first miles before having stress fractures and quitting. To feel it better, let me say that you cannot give your mother or sister or wife 60Kg rucksack to complete a 16km forced march at 3 a.m in limited time, or are you okey with it? You are then exposing them to an unnecessary risk. I would rather to let my sister cook something than causing her a herniated disc. Watch stories about women rucking with male soldiers, that females end up distributing all their rucksack content for male soldiers who end up with significantly more weight in their rucksack, just for women to go light so they complete the march without needing a hospital, and only male soldiers suffer from this, because they cannot do the same for women. The US military is a perfect exemple that demonstrates the failure of the equality ideals. Their decision to include women in combat positions is motivated by political gains, not by efficiency. Soldiering is just an example. And yes, women cannot do it efficiently. Enjoy!

It is reckless to give women, who are our mothers sisters and daughters dangerous jobs such as firefighting, soldiering, SWAT, construction work where severe injury or death risk is high. Imagine if we do and pregnant women get killed or injured. It is just an unnecessary waste of human resources.
Any job that requires physical strength favors men. Women will never reach the same level as men. The most weight that a woman has ever lifted as I recall is 260Kg. Plenty of men lift 300Kg, and a few are north of 450Kg. These are facts that should not be overlooked. Women have other more strong points such as verbal abilities, empathy, caretaking, memory... that is why patients treated by female doctors have better outcomes than those treated by male doctors ( study published in the BMJ if you are curious google it). Totally natural and should never disturb anyone knowing his place in society. Have a nice day.
 
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Saudi women are extremely enterprising compared to their opposing sex counterparts.

Unfortunately for many muslim men that is unacceptable that they are lazy all talk slobs compared to their women whom they can only either hate or beat.
No, saudi women are only portreyed like that by their media. You are using words such as "extremely enterprising" and "many muslims", which you give no stats or scientific language to quantify it. The richest Saudi people are men. The most successful saudi entrepreneurs are men too. And for muslims doing bad things, blame them, not me, and certainly not Islam for their wrongdoings. Islam did not preach women-hating. It is like saying that we hate our mothers, sisters, daughters... which is not true. It encourages living in harmony.
 
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No, saudi women are only portreyed like that by their media. You are using words such as "extremely enterprising" and "many muslims", which you give no stats or scientific language to quantify it. The richest Saudi people are men. The most successful saudi entrepreneurs are men too. And for muslims doing bad things, blame them, not me, and certainly not Islam for their wrongdoings. Islam did not preach women-hating. It is like saying that we hate our mothers, sisters, daughters... which is not true. It encourages living in harmony.
No, I lived in Riyadh for 3 years so am witness to it first hand. It has only improved by leaps and bounds.

Please don’t provide examples of either Princes or Waleed bin Talal types as the general lot.

My post implies many muslim men - do you want a number? I can conduct a poll for you.

Muslim men means men who consider themselves muslim - it has no relationship to whether they actually espouse Islamic values or what they claim to be Islamic is Islamic at all.

A “Muslim” man can be seen 5 times a day in a mosque and still abuse his wife(wives) and be found in a brothel in Manama on Sunday drinking Vodka.
 
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Saudi women are extremely enterprising compared to their opposing sex counterparts.

Unfortunately for many muslim men that is unacceptable that they are lazy all talk slobs compared to their women whom they can only either hate or beat.
Dude your DP is so wrong, whatever the context or meaning I don't think it's appropriate on a pakistani forum
 
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Saudi women are extremely enterprising compared to their opposing sex counterparts.

Unfortunately for many muslim men that is unacceptable that they are lazy all talk slobs compared to their women whom they can only either hate or beat.
Couldn't have stated it any better.

No, I lived in Riyadh for 3 years so am witness to it first hand. It has only improved by leaps and bounds.

Please don’t provide examples of either Princes or Waleed bin Talal types as the general lot.

My post implies many muslim men - do you want a number? I can conduct a poll for you.

Muslim men means men who consider themselves muslim - it has no relationship to whether they actually espouse Islamic values or what they claim to be Islamic is Islamic at all.

A “Muslim” man can be seen 5 times a day in a mosque and still abuse his wife(wives) and be found in a brothel in Manama on Sunday drinking Vodka.
I actually know people like this.
 
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Couldn't have stated it any better.
The problem isn’t that muslims(of either sex) have not achieved a lot of progress. But that many muslim men get irked if a female achieves more(or anything depending upon the region) besides birthing and rearing kids.

Its not like the west doesn’t have pay gaps and its female empowerment movements are at times out of control and cause massive destruction in their society; it’s simply not relevant to muslim countries.

Ironically the muslims that claim to believe that they will be judged for only their deeds and their deeds alone spend most of their lives worrying about others and restricting them.

Unfortunately, you cannot comment on them either because you end up nearly being as judgmental as they are
 
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Umm so i see people have different viewpoints here and that's fine imo, women can indeed contribute a lot to the economy of a nation. Shouldn't the onus be on them? i mean if they want to work and be independent?
I do agree with a comment above that a woman has maternal duties towards her child too and managing that with one's work life can get tricky but still forcing someone to follow a fixed path in 21st century?

To this I am reminded of Indian Chief Justice's statement back when homosexuality was decriminalized in India "Societal morality cannot trump constitutional morality. societal morality cannot overturn fundamental rights of even a single individual" this was a landmark decision for a mostly conservative society like India.
I understand what you said. The problem is that women are not left with the choice to work or not, but the media and society places increasing pressure on women to join the economical life because of political objectives of achieving economical growth and modernization. Women worked before that for centuries and nobody said a thing. But now they try to force women to work by subtly indoctrinating them with things like "strong independant women" that push them to work, firstly in female-dominated fields, and when they got saturated the pressure increased more and women began to work in male dominated fields and looking at this as an achievement like if they were competing against men. The feminists are behind this by forcing women to follow this path and pursue career instead of letting them decide as mature adults like centuries before.
For us, God has the right to make things legal or illegal, and not politicians fighting for approval or financial benefits that pass laws that benefit themselves and their sponsors. That is nobody can legalize what God criminalized even if it is done by everyone. God's Law is our reference as Muslims. Of course you are free about your country I do not want to force my thinking on anyone, but let's just acknowledge the truth and analyze the issue deeply before.
 
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@SQ8

That is most likely due to Saudi Arabian women needing to prove themselves in the society and due to years of being denied rights that should have been given to them. My impression is that this is similarly the case among Pakistani women, Iranian women and Afghan women.

Anyway since I lived in KSA as a small child, (although I tend to visit each year to visit family that is still living there) compared to today, so much has changed, that it is hard to understand that we are talking about the same country and people. I was being told that KSA was vastly different prior to the Grand Mosque Seizure in 1979, the Iranian Islamic Revolution next door the same year and before the Sahwa era infested everthing in Saudi Arabia.

Now when I watch Youtube videos of tourists in KSA and just social media from KSA, it is like day and night. In mostly a good way.

I agree with you. But I do not think that KSA will stop at allowing women to participate in army in combat positions only. It will soon follow the US exemple and we will see mixed units and sexual liberation will make matters worse. I am afraid the outcome will not be good. America has long allowed women first in the army in non combat positions, then they lifted the ban, then they allowed perverts ( lgbt) in the army. It is a slippery slope. One sin leads to another. For example here in Morocco female soldiers are prohibited from Hijab. I am afraid that KSA will follow this path too. I hope not, but I cannot take it easy. Now look at the US, it organizes breafing for soldiers about sexual harassment and tolerant behavior toward perverts. If this is not moral degeneracy, then I don't know what else can be. Our countries are going steadily in the same path. I hope I am wrong but that is how I see it. Things will continue to go south for quite a while before we wake up to the disaster that is coming.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't even think that Saudi Arabian women are allowed to take part in actual combat during wars but most other roles.

Mixing already took place prior to the reforms just not outright in the open. All the vices found everywhere also occurred just on a smaller scale. No country is safe from it, look at Afghanistan, the amount of pedophilia, bacha bazi (google it) that goes on is hard to believe. All under the noses of the Taliban who are no angels in this regard. The same Taliban earns a lot of its money engaged in opium trade. Which creates a large addicted population whose after effects are also found in Pakistan and in Iran next door. I could go on.

I never knew that Morocco was this extreme. Is Hijab banned in the army or in general? Has to be the army, surely?

Anyway I understand what you are talking about but this is how the world is in 2022. Try to survive today without social media, without the internet etc. You are bombarbed by influences that are not very healthy as a child. It is the onus of parents and family members and teachers etc. (as well as the state) to adopt the good and leave the bad away.

But all this is caused not only by modern technology but the rising atheism/agnosticism across the world. In part (in some areas of the Muslim world) due to corrupt clerics and Islam being misused by political parties and leaders. Pakistan is a prime example of this unfortunately.
 
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The problem isn’t that muslims(of either sex) have not achieved a lot of progress. But that many muslim men get irked if a female achieves more(or anything depending upon the region) besides birthing and rearing kids.

Its not like the west doesn’t have pay gaps and its female empowerment movements are at times out of control and cause massive destruction in their society; it’s simply not relevant to muslim countries.

Ironically the muslims that claim to believe that they will be judged for only their deeds and their deeds alone spend most of their lives worrying about others and restricting them.

Unfortunately, you cannot comment on them either because you end up nearly being as judgmental as they are
I encounter such clowns every day. I try my best to support fellow students in my university, especially girls. Such narcissistic people hate all those they can't control especially women who are more successful than them or show greater promise than them.
 
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Couldn't have stated it any better.


I actually know people like this.
It may have improved, but it is still lagging way behind where authorities wants it to be. And it only improved because of political pressure. BTW, I have nothing about women being rich. Good for them, just not at the expense of impoverishing men and depriving them from job opportunities. For the rest I agree. Even non-muslims in Africa and India still do bad things to women, so it is not related Islam and it cannot be accused. But the main thing is not to empower women at the expense of men. And let women choose what to pursue, not putting societal pressure on them to work or not like what politicians and the media is doing.
 
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