The secular myth

[Verve]

It is amazing how pethatic little minds some possess. One agnostic confused BBC and other sick of his own family's bigoted upbringing (maybe got beat too much and brain got damaged in the process) - both living only in their little holes yet mocking/taunting others. Take your insecurities out elsewhere.

Participate properly or GTFO.

 

[VCheng]

In context of Islam and Muslims, obviously from Quran, for example

2:284, 2:255 3:180, 4:131, 7:128 (many other verses) and 24:55 for concept of Islamic state.

None of those sources support mixing matters of State with matters of religion. Indeed, justice demands that they be kept separate.

 

[Verve]

1. Where does secular system derive morality from, to make laws on?

2. Which country's constitution do the secularists want to impose on Pakistan, without any changes whatsoever? Any clear cut reference available yet?

 

[The SC]

Muslims made their mosques places of worship only, otherwise mosques served a bigger and greater role.

They had some mosques as schools and universities too..just no politics..

 

[The Sandman]

This sums it up quite nicely:

"Secularism — the distancing of state from religion — does not mean la-deeniyat, absence of religion or anti-religion. It means rearranging state laws and policies so that they are neutral (ghair janibdaar) and treat citizens of all faiths without prejudice. Secularity — the principles of secularism — means that religion should have no influence on public institutions and services, and religious privilege must not influence government. It limits moral issues to the private, personal sphere. Secularisation — the transfer of socio-political power away from religious governance — does not force people to become atheists or stop observers from going to church or mosque. It does prevent using places of worship for practising politics."

Yep author really put it well and easy to understand too v.good article.
@Azlan Haider @LA se Karachi @Hell hound

 

[I.R.A]

None of those sources support mixing matters of State with matters of religion.

You are entitled to your understanding of those sources, but for me it is very clear, State without Deen is anything but Islam, and Deen without state cannot be implemented in its true form. The difference here is you wish religion to be separated from state and I wish religion to be abolished forever and Deen be implemented in its true form. I am sure you must be aware of difference between Deen and religion.

Indeed, justice demands that they be kept separate.

This is a big statement, I thing I cannot make such a statement, no matter what form of government, they still need improvement, justice in context of governing is absolute justice ........ for me till the day any human remains homeless and hungry the justice is not completely done. Capitalist secular societies will never be able to achieve this.

Roti, Kapra, Makan ........... is one of the goals set by Deen and mere mention of this resulted in many still following Bhutto. But this can never be achieved in isolation unless the whole Deen is implemented.

However, coming back to my original statement this is what I said

Is any of the definitions of secularism okay with accepting that "This Earth belongs to God and it is HIM and only HIM who rules this Earth, humans can take charge of the matters but would derive laws from guidance given by God"?

Mortal Humans in their million years of existence have never been able to rule the Earth and based on what we know about our capabilities as of today we will never be able to do that. We benefit from it but we cannot rule it. We have our world to rule but again many before us had their's to rule.

 

[VCheng]

You are entitled to your understanding of those sources,

Just as you are entitled to your understanding of these sources. That is exactly why religion is a personal matter, where everyone is entitled to their views, equally. That is also why the State must not have its own views to enforce in matters of religion, because ......

no matter what form of government, they still need improvement, justice in context of governing is absolute justice

...... justice in the context of governing means treating everyone equally. That means that everyone's views about religion must be treated equally, without the State enforcing or favoring any one particular set of views. Hence, a State must be secular in it is outlook, and must not impose religion if it is to treat all its citizens equally. To call it anti-religious if it does not enforce any one particular religion is simply dishonest.

Q.E.D.

The problem only arises when one particular set of views demands to be treated above all others, because its followers think that their personal beliefs are universal facts, which is simply not true. Please understand this key concept before talking about this matter any further.

 

[T-Rex]

This sums it up quite nicely:

"Secularism — the distancing of state from religion — does not mean la-deeniyat, absence of religion or anti-religion. It means rearranging state laws and policies so that they are neutral (ghair janibdaar) and treat citizens of all faiths without prejudice. Secularity — the principles of secularism — means that religion should have no influence on public institutions and services, and religious privilege must not influence government. It limits moral issues to the private, personal sphere. Secularisation — the transfer of socio-political power away from religious governance — does not force people to become atheists or stop observers from going to church or mosque. It does prevent using places of worship for practising politics."

Theoretical meaning of it has become totally irrelevant in today's world and banning of beef consumption in so-called secular india is one good example of that. In india the religious belief of the majority is being forced upon the minority while waving the flag of suckularism. So I don't care what the theoretical definition of secularism is, in reality it has become a tool of persecution, resulting in outburst of extremism in the Muslim world.

 

[The SC]

Theoretical meaning of it has become totally irrelevant in today's world and banning of beef consumption in so-called secular india is one good example of that. In india the religious belief of the majority is being forced upon the minority while waving the flag of suckularism. So I don't care what the theoretical definition of secularism is, in reality it has become a tool of persecution, resulting in outburst of extremism in the Muslim world.

That theoretical meaning in my post (from the author) concerns secularism in Islam, obviously others have their own "definitions"!

 

[T-Rex]

That theoretical meaning in my post (from the author) concerns secularism in Islam, obviously others have their own "definitions"!

There's no such thing as secularism in Islam. In Islam it is called protecting the rights of everybody (Muslims and non-Muslims) and being fair. The so-called champions of suckularism have transformed it into protecting the rights of the non-Muslims at the expense of the Muslims.

 

[M. Sarmad]

.... State without Deen is anything but Islam, and Deen without state cannot be implemented in its true form. The difference here is you wish religion to be separated from state and I wish religion to be abolished forever and Deen be implemented in its true form. I am sure you must be aware of difference between Deen and religion.

Notwithstanding the "difference", please quote any verse(s) from the Holy Qur'an in which Allah SWT has ordered the believers to "implement"/enforce Islam (on others; Muslims or Non Muslims)... Islam/Iman is a voluntary (individual and/or collective) submission and obedience to Allah almighty, it's not something that has to be enforced or implemented by the ruler of the state (or by any group of individuals). No wonder the Holy Qur'an doesn't prescribe any worldly punishments for "offenses" related to religion, or for violation of Haquq Allah.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are entitled to your understanding of those sources, but for me it is very clear, State without Deen is anything but Islam, and Deen without state cannot be implemented in its true form. The difference here is you wish religion to be separated from state and I wish religion to be abolished forever and Deen be implemented in its true form. I am sure you must be aware of difference between Deen and religion.



This is a big statement, I thing I cannot make such a statement, no matter what form of government, they still need improvement, justice in context of governing is absolute justice ........ for me till the day any human remains homeless and hungry the justice is not completely done. Capitalist secular societies will never be able to achieve this.

Roti, Kapra, Makan ........... is one of the goals set by Deen and mere mention of this resulted in many still following Bhutto. But this can never be achieved in isolation unless the whole Deen is implemented.

However, coming back to my original statement this is what I said



Mortal Humans in their million years of existence have never been able to rule the Earth and based on what we know about our capabilities as of today we will never be able to do that. We benefit from it but we cannot rule it. We have our world to rule but again many before us had their's to rule.

Hi,

The term " implementing deen " is deceptive---. A true amd justifiable " deen " would have no problem in being implemented---unless there is deciet in the follower.

The real issus is not of the secular---it is the DECEIT in the mindsand souls of those who claim deen to be their salvation---yet doing nothing for its sake---.

Case in point---Ch Nisar---an extremely corrupt man---standing shoulder to shoulder with the most corrupt prime minster and his family---during the most lawless time in the nations history---and yet this man has the courage to call someone secular.

He should be thrown in the fires of hell for this " blasphemy ".


They would steal at the first opportunity that they get---basically---every despicable act that one can perform---they will initiate it an if not---they will participate in it wholeheartedly.

The issue over here is neither the DEEN or being SECULAR---the issue is implementing order in the society and the imposition and the enforcement of the " CURRENT " rule of law.

It is a great pakistani habbit----to talk about everything in reference to DEEN that they hardy ever practise---liars and pervert criminals would start a personal or a public statement by reciting a few verses in arabic from the Qura'an.

When a nation propagates perversity in their every aspect of life---it is not the DEEN that fixes the problem---it is the imposition of the rule of law---.

 

[-SINAN-]

Secularism is the separation of Religion from the State Affairs.

 

[Verve]

Everyone on of those talking about " deen " over here---would be standing in CHILD RAPE LINE and a Girl Gang Rape line in Pakistan waiting for their turn---making pornos of those incidents and spreading them around---including blackmail.

This just shows the sickness inside you actually! Go get your head checked old man! Post reported.

@WAJsal @waz

 

[MastanKhan]

This just shows the sickness inside you actually! Go get your head checked old man! Post reported.

@WAJsal @waz

Sir,

Sickness is what you practice in your daily lives---. This is what pakistanis are---.

Porno videos---gang rape---child molestation---videos of child molestation---viedeos of sex with girls and women---and then blackmailing them and their families---.

That is what the problem is---.