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The Saudi Threat

This thread illustrates exactly the problem with Pakistan.

Why do we need the Israelis, Indians or Americans to hurt us? We are doing a bang up job (sad pun) of it ourselves, forever lost in our pointless bickering over the true Islam.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is pulling ahead economically, scientifically and in standard of life.
 
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This thread illustrates exactly the problem with Pakistan.

Why do we need the Israelis, Indians or Americans to hurt us? We are doing a bang up job (sad pun) of it ourselves, forever lost in our pointless bickering over the true Islam.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is pulling ahead economically, scientifically and in standard of life.

Sadly; Pakistan was created only in the last 6 decades; this problem has been there since 1400 years :rolleyes:
 
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The problem is our tolerance of bigots who use religion as a political ideology of violence - the more we call for greater tolerance, the more we are taken for a ride by those who have no intention of affording tolerance to other Muslims or anybody else.
 
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Sadly; Pakistan was created only in the last 6 decades; this problem has been there since 1400 years :rolleyes:

Then it's our opportunity to show the rest of the Islamic world that the two sides can live and prosper together.

Who knows? We could become the catalyst for greater unity within the wider Muslim world. Surely that is something to aim for and be proud of?
 
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Then it's our opportunity to show the rest of the Islamic world that the two sides can live and prosper together.

Who knows? We could become the catalyst for greater unity within the wider Muslim world. Surely that is something to aim for and be proud of?

Sure; why not; most of the shia ulema (Allama Hasan Zafar for one) call for Ittehad bain al muslimeen; but then we are regarded as weak for extending the hand of peace and then marginalised in a society where takfiri ideology is rampant.

Iraq's sunnis and shias lived in harmony together and even intermarried; it was only saddam who tortured killed and maimed thousands of shias. The problem erupted after the americans came and brought there Al Qaeda bigots into Iraq to kill thousands of shias and sunnis and pin the blame on each other.
 
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Sure; why not; most of the shia ulema (Allama Hasan Zafar for one) call for Ittehad bain al muslimeen; but then we are regarded as weak for extending the hand of peace and then marginalised in a society where takfiri ideology is rampant.

Iraq's sunnis and shias lived in harmony together and even intermarried; it was only saddam who tortured killed and maimed thousands of shias. The problem erupted after the americans came and brought there Al Qaeda bigots into Iraq to kill thousands of shias and sunnis and pin the blame on each other.

Well, let's focus on Pakistan and solve our problems. If we can institute a system like I mentioned, then there is no reason why there should be conflict.

The single most difficult aspect will be to convince people to abandon the idea that their Islam should be the official Islam of Pakistan. People need to be made aware of the religious diversity in Pakistan and respect for others.

Like muse says, we need to remind Pakistanis of Jinnah's vision. Jinnah's picture and that core secular statement should be in every classroom.

In a sense we need to go back to square one and start again -- together this time.
 
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Bane blade

Watch, sympathize if you wish, but know, to the last of them, we will either kill, or capture and cage like animals. Now you can howl at the moon all you like, it won't change the fact that these will be either dead or in cages. You, can breathe fresh air a little longer, but sooner or later what is in you will seek "expression". It's the ideology of hate.

Indeed and capturing and killing makes you a very nice friendly man doesn't it?

How casual is that, extremism is just a part of Islam -

How now gentle Ejaz, isn't extremism a part of Islam, after all, Bane Blade has put it out in his "innocence" that all "ideologies" in Islam have a extremist wing -- in other words extremism is a part of Islam -
Do you understand now why these people are a mortal threat, do you see why no one else can do Islam and Muslims more damage than these corruptions have already done?

Indeed they all do hence the reason I can't be bothered about ideologies or religion but to me the worst of people are hypocrites and you fall into that category best.



by the way bane blade, that's Kafir e Azaam to you, is it?

No way he may be to someone like you but I am not the one who captures or cages or kills and I am pretty sure that isn't what my Quaid wanted me to do be it with anyone I would rather set an example and move forward with people without involving their religious ideologies.



Hmm have u ever considered that most of these organisations came into being due to the killings done by wahabi organisations (Lashkar e Jhangvi, Sipah Sahaba)..? :rolleyes:

I hope you remember the tit for tat killings that used to take place in karachi, and till today these takfiri bastards are killing shias in DGK and DIK; Parachinar; Hangu; Gilgit and elsewhere :angry:

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction :whistle:

Yeah and that is exactly why the prophet made the Suleih Hudaybiyah and forgave countless other people didn't he?
I Muslims killed other muslims lets hope that they end up going to hell but if it is one extremist outfit fighting another then I don't feel the need to distinguish between who hit who first.
 
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Saudi charity funds al-Qaeda linked Pak terror outfits

Monday, September 14, 2009

News Desk

ISLAMABAD: A Saudi Arabian charity believed to be a front for al-Qaeda has provided USD 15 million (55 million dirhams) to extremist groups in Pakistan for carrying out terror attacks, according to a secret report prepared by Pakistani police.

A major chunk of the funds provided by the Al-Haramain Foundation went to the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, said the report prepared by the Crime Investigation Department.

The Al-Haramain Foundation has been banned by the UN Security Council for its links to al-Qaeda
. According to the CID report, Hakimullah Mehsud, the successor to slain Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan chief Baitullah Mehsud, has vowed to avenge his killing in a US drone attack in August.

“The Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan is likely to strike major cities of the Punjab,” said the report.The report further said: “The joint plans of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan and Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan are to target Shias. The plans are meant to avenge the recent killing of a top Sipahe-e-Sahaba Pakistan man in Karachi.

“The new Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan chief Hakimullah Mehsud and his cousin Qari Hussain Ahmed have strong anti-Shia views and ties with the (banned) Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Jaish-e-Mohammed.”



It should be clear what the Saudi game plan is, to spark a sectarian war in Pakistan in order not only to ensure that the Law enforcement authorities are taxed and to destabilize further, the Pakistani and state.
 
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It should be clear what the Saudi game plan is, to spark a sectarian war in Pakistan in order not only to ensure that the Law enforcement authorities are taxed and to destabilize further, the Pakistani and state.

muse,

I don't understand the rationale for the Saudis to destabilize Pakistan. The charity funding reported above is from Saudi individuals? Or from the KSA? I have been having a running argument with tamikhan over his claim that the TTP is a USA asset. This article implies that the TTP is a KSA asset. I can't see what the Saudis (KSA) gain from a de-stabilized Pakistan?
 
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Yeah and that is exactly why the prophet made the Suleih Hudaybiyah and forgave countless other people didn't he?
I Muslims killed other muslims lets hope that they end up going to hell but if it is one extremist outfit fighting another then I don't feel the need to distinguish between who hit who first.

Yes the Prophet SAW forgave countless people; we should do the same; but what do you want the people to do who lost and are losing their family members to these takfiri bastards? Sit back and keep forgiving...? Sooner or later the kids of these people will return the favor...
 
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TS

The Saudi aim is to have a Islamized Pakistan which will be it's pawn against the Iranian. The Nexus between these charities and Saudi Royals and other financial heavy hitters is a scandal.

With apologies if I am being presumptuous, allow me to help you understand what this whole Saudi/Iranian thing is all about:

Shi'ah Islam or Jafaari figh, has historically had a internal focus, that is to say it is focused towards the world of Islam, in the attempt to forward it's "truth claims" - Sunnah. Sunnati Islam has historically been focused outward, it is the majority and therefore felt no need to forward it's "truth claims".

With the Iranian revolution (Islamic) and the assertiveness of the Wahabi sect, all this changed - The Wahabi sect with support of the Saudi State decided to challenge the Iranian -- Why?? The Wahabi and Saudi state will posit religious reasons, but the truth is that the source of the Saudi wealth in Eastern Saudi Arabia is in a primarily Shi'ah region (exactly why Al-Qaida in Iraq exists??? Whom do they target???)

With the almost unbelievable submission of the Pakistani state and religious authorities, anti-Shiah paramilitary groups were formed (these lashkar e Jhangvi and assorted terror groups) now these groups were formed because the Iranian had a huge debate after the revolution about the external focus of the revolution, and what became clear was that Iran would seek to further it's influence with formation of militias (ala Hibzullah).

And so a huge terror filled civil war emerged within Islamia, this war was and is being fought by the proxy forces of the Saudi and Iranian - whose getting killed, whose countries are being torn apart?? That's right, it's neither the Iranian nor the Saudi - it's Pakistanis and a whole host of other "poorer" or "weak Muslims" as the Wahabi call them.

This is the context within which the Saudi threat is materialized in Pakistan -- Think about it, why would a movement that is called Talib be so focused on the killing of Shi'ah Muslims??? Was it not the same in Afghanistan???

Our entire attempt is to awaken Pakistanis to the fact that they have always had the answer, the solution to this problem, it is in the work and speeches of M. A. Jinnah - that is what Pakistan is really about, not Iranian or Saudi or any other than what the creator of Pakistan meant it for - below from his address to the constituent Assembly of Pakistan:


...Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.




This post will generate responses by the usual suspects - you will note that in their responses they will immediate attack either Shi'ah or US and will talk about "peace" or "ceasefire" they will refer to the prophet of Islam behaving in this or that way to justify what they want -- this in itself is the identifying clue as to whom one is dealing with.


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Well, let's focus on Pakistan and solve our problems. If we can institute a system like I mentioned, then there is no reason why there should be conflict.

The single most difficult aspect will be to convince people to abandon the idea that their Islam should be the official Islam of Pakistan. People need to be made aware of the religious diversity in Pakistan and respect for others.

Like muse says, we need to remind Pakistanis of Jinnah's vision. Jinnah's picture and that core secular statement should be in every classroom.

In a sense we need to go back to square one and start again -- together this time.

Agreed; reference to Iraq was just to demonstrate that Shias and Sunnis can live in harmony.
As there is much diversity in the Islam being practiced in Pakistan; no one sect can claim that its version will be the official one; as it will marginalise the other sects. As u said; Jinnah's vision all the way :tup:
 
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What do all Islamist terrorists have in common? Wahabi/Salafi ideology - that's just a fact -

It is not the fact, but you trying to feed others to accept it.. if let suppose we look around then who is fazullullah.. who was BM, who is AM? who was Qari? those all were not arabic.. also most of their followers are not arabi or wahabi.. you are just using Western ideology, same as Britishers did.. Divide and rule.. this is the best way to tackle Afghanistan issue..

It's very sad, but it's the reality. For Arbi, whatever they want to be is their business but Pakistan cannot afford this evil ideology in her peoples.

discrimination about one group.. what else i can expect from the blind haters?
 
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With apologies if I am being presumptuous, allow me to help you understand what this whole Saudi/Iranian thing is all about:

Thank you for taking your time to explain this intra-Islam struggle. You have alluded to it in the past but what I was missing was the vibrancy and intensity of the conflict. The two sides manage to keep it largely "hidden" by constant obfuscation. I have read many articles about the Sunni/Shia divide but did not understand that for some in both camps it is a true "fight to the death". After the acrimony over Iranian pilgrims to the Haj shortly after the Iranian revolution, I thought the conflict had abated. Instead, you say, it goes on, but via proxies.

I just finished reading a book about Islamic Art and Architecture and was surprised that there have been some rather long periods wherein Shia rulers (i.e., Fatimids) led Islam and controlled Mecca and Medina. I had thought that the Sunnis had almost always been dominant, politically and religiously, over worldwide Islam. So, I guess it is not out of the question for Shia to once again regain the "leadership", including custody of the Two Mosques. With the strong Shia population in northern SA as a vanguard, a nuclear-armed Shia Iran/Iraq juggernaut might easily overthrow the Saudi Royals. So, from the Royals POV, this is no mere debate between rival mullahs, but a threat to their intrinsic privileges.
 
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Yes the Prophet SAW forgave countless people; we should do the same; but what do you want the people to do who lost and are losing their family members to these takfiri bastards? Sit back and keep forgiving...? Sooner or later the kids of these people will return the favor...

The Takfirs are the worst thing that has probably happened to our religion but I don't think that Salafi's are Takfiris and hence taking up arms will only further the Takfiri's cause.

As for who is right or wrong I am sure both sides have arguments over the meanings of the sayings of the prophets however to use the terms "Your three Khalifah's clearly is certainly wrong specially for people that fought in Ghazwa's alongside the prophet.




Muse

I read what you posted earlier and sincerely hope that both the power hungry forces of Iran and Saudi Arabia leave our country and fight on their own turfs. However the idea that a particular ideology needs to be killed seems very wrong to me and would like clarification as to why we need to target them. I feel that both the Sunni's and the Shi'ites need to set an example for themselves so that they can clear the air between each other or else domination from any one sect will cause worse implications.
 
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