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The real face of CPEC : Destroying Pakistani Industry

What Indians got to do with this thread @somebozo is not Indian ..

India received 55Billion $ in 2 years.. We are not dependent on one single project.. CPEC is no magic wand to turn pak into trillion $ economy..

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/india-received-55-billion-in-fdi-in-2-years-says-sushma-swaraj-1420955

Yes Somebozo is not indian but Indians (not pointing u) seems to worry too much about CPEC and its negative impact on Pakistan. This is the puzzle i m still unable to solve...Indians oppose this project and they will try to create misunderstanding regarding CPEC. This is no brainer to find out.

India received 55 billion. Did i ask you about how much India received? Then why showing off and being over smart. Just because you hear too much about CPEC, doesn't mean we r relying on solely on this project. This project is damn unique and significant. We r just about to make history. One Belt One Road is going to involve a lot of countries. This node is very important too.

Who said CPEC is Aladin ka Chiragh? We are just excited about it and do talk about its positive and negative. We will take care of it. CPEC will lay down the foundation of our success. Power supply, dams, railways are going to be upgraded. Chinese are master in infrastructure development. You don't need to compare India with Pakistan. We r going to have Chinese built infra, a damn good one. The increased cooperation and economic integration with more than One billion people having economy of trillions of dollars is not a JOKE. Thats why we are very ambitious about it. The whole world has eyes on it. Iran, UK, US, China, Middle East. U name it. If all goes as it is planned, we will literally change the whole dynamics of South Asia. CARS may use Gwadar port. Western China will definitely going to use Gwadar. Iran is very serious about joining Gwadar too. Whole region is going to have connectivity with each other.
 
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If you are going to take the approach of protectionism, how are you going to compete globally. Pakistan, but especially India, needs to be international to be competitive and create growth.

Are you going to tell America, EU, Africa to tax Chinese goods but let yours through? They would listen to you?

China is the manufacturing leader, because we took the challenge and we won, you want something, take it, but don't build a wall, cover your ears and hear no evil. That's the Soviet's approach. I don't have to tell you where they went.

Do protectionism if you want, but all you will do is create a highly inefficient industry thatch about as competitive internationally as Chinese football is.

Uh..China very much practices protectionism where it sees fit. And the trend is rather increasing in recent years.

Regardless of the interest rate it is clear that the entire amount is a loan and not an investment..countries promote foreign investments because it promotes economic growth and employment..loans do not promote growth they always leave your economy with a higher value...a loan even at 1% interest is less favorable over investment. Therefore it comes at a shameless expense to the nation that we are being forced to accept Chinese labor for the project..it is just a clever way of routing money back into the Chinese economy while we are left with the responsibility of returning it...the wages paid to Chinese workers do not count!

As @dadeechi rightly pointed out in another thread, that was a slick move by China, since it's a loan and not an investment, so with an average interest rate of even 2% on $46 billion, the annual interest for Pakistan would be a whooping $920 million, plus you have to pay back the principal also. Now it becomes Pakistan's responsibility to ensure that China uses that route enough for it to service the loan. And in any future negotiation on transit fee and other terms & conditions; it is China who would have the upper hand. Because China has alternative routes and deep pocket to stop using that route for some period or reduce traffic to pressurize Pakistan, but Pakistan has no such leverage, it has to service the fixed burden of loan from the transit fee.

This Indian guy "somebozo" is suddenly upset because China is blocking India's NSG entry. :lol:

Buddy, you are here for long enough to know that somebozo is not an Indian.

So the indians where right all the time...

Omg ...china is our enemy .....so is islam....they are out to destroy us....

Our real friends are india...america and israel....

Get serious guys

Since the creation of Pakistan America is the one country that helped Pakistan the most, and you two are still allies. Only in recent years the relationship has soured, but then Pakistan was playing double game with America on WoT.

About India, no we are not your friend, but the day we become real friends, if ever, the relationship will be far more beneficial to Pakistan than any other friend Pakistan ever had.
 
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At both Gawadar and CPEC(China 'Punjab' Economic Corridor), Pakistan will only win military support from China up to a level of direct intervention on the name of "saving its vital assets", for our Economy it doesn't have any trump card as we have literally sold these projects to China to be exploited as they wish.

:tdown: :blah:..........:disagree: I m Karachiite, (Descendant of Immigrant) and no way in hell this project is Punjab related. Stop spewing propaganda. :angry:

Aziz Kardeshim, I have the following observations:
  • CPEC is a strategic project to cater for both military and economic power projections. At the center is Pak. Now weak Pak isn't in the Chinese interest since a strong Pak will be the knob to contain India by channeling all of her obsessive compulsive disorders vis-a-vis Pak. Instead of India containng China, China contains India via supporting a growing and strong Pak. Clever move. Look at NSG example.
  • China wants to be like the USA economy wise, which is the ultimate goal of the US businesses too to make the next level of profits. It means financial markets, innovation, services, high end research and products, and advanced consumer market. But unlike the USA she doesn't want to lose the "global factory and supply chain" status. Hence relatively cheap labor in Pak gets into picture. In the yellow race culture loyalty runs supreme and memory is sharp. They may be bossy and pushy but looks after you. Pak fits these trust and loyalty bills perfectly with a good track record.
  • So far association with China has proved to be good for Pak be it strategic balance or a domestic fighter jet. So, future associations will bring good for Paks too inshaAllah by using Newton's method of induction - if something is true for n=1, and you can prove it to be true for n=2, then it can be projected that it is true for n=3,4,..etc.
  • Now Pak has to come up with her own story vis-a-vis CPEC. With such a long supply chain and transportation channel at your disposal I don't think it's tough. What you need to do is to roll the wheel of your business acumen and see wonders coming. I am pretty sure many folks from around the world are already eying CPEC for such opportunities. Business world is dynamic with some industries dying and others being born in a continuous fashion. To stick to status quo is like death.

Great observation. I hope that we will successfully sail the boat to its real destination. In Sha Allah. :-)
 
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nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .
..U just said that hurting India is pakistant's national interest.
..but I'm sure not many people think like u...or
 
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Yes Somebozo is not indian but Indians (not pointing u) seems to worry too much about CPEC and its negative impact on Pakistan. This is the puzzle i m still unable to solve...Indians oppose this project and they will try to create misunderstanding regarding CPEC. This is no brainer to find out.

India received 55 billion. Did i ask you about how much India received? Then why showing off and being over smart. Just because you hear too much about CPEC, doesn't mean we r relying on solely on this project. This project is damn unique and significant. We r just about to make history. One Belt One Road is going to involve a lot of countries. This node is very important too.

Who said CPEC is Aladin ka Chiragh? We are just excited about it and do talk about its positive and negative. We will take care of it. CPEC will lay down the foundation of our success. Power supply, dams, railways are going to be upgraded. Chinese are master in infrastructure development. You don't need to compare India with Pakistan. We r going to have Chinese built infra, a damn good one. The increased cooperation and economic integration with more than One billion people having economy of trillions of dollars is not a JOKE. Thats why we are very ambitious about it. The whole world has eyes on it. Iran, UK, US, China, Middle East. U name it. If all goes as it is planned, we will literally change the whole dynamics of South Asia. CARS may use Gwadar port. Western China will definitely going to use Gwadar. Iran is very serious about joining Gwadar too. Whole region is going to have connectivity with each other.

Relying on one country solely will be foolishness... I came across many project that chinese took up, Majority of labour and all key positions will be chinese only.. building infra is key term for any economy, but the point is under what terms?? This is not FDI but a loan .

an example don't think otherwise...

And to those of you who don't know the type of job these numerous Chinese construction firms do in Africa, Chinese projects don't often last long. A hospital in Luanda, the capital of Angola, was opened with great fanfare but cracks appeared in the walls within a few months and it soon closed. The Chinese-built road from Lusaka, Zambia's capital, to Chirundu, 130km (81 miles) to the south-east, was quickly swept away by rains. I can go on and on.

http://www.africaw.com/africa-the-china-owned-continent

For National Road 8, “the quality is as weak as we’ve seen, but that’s because they hadn’t understood the [weather conditions] here in Cambodia.”

According to him, National Road 8’s rehabilitation was funded with a $71 million loan from a Chinese state-owned bank.

Construction, which began in 2008 and finished in 2012, was undertaken by Shanghai Construction (Group) General Company, a Chinese company, which has been involved in a slew of infrastructure projects in the country.


http://m.phnompenhpost.com/real-estate/national-roads-built-chinese-aid-under-fire


If pak do not have quality control then the projects will cost you dearly ..
 
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Relying on one country solely will be foolishness... I came across many project that chinese took up, Majority of labour and all key positions will be chinese only.. building infra is key term for any economy, but the point is under what terms?? This is not FDI but a loan to be paid back @18%....

an example don't think otherwise...

And to those of you who don't know the type of job these numerous Chinese construction firms do in Africa, Chinese projects don't often last long. A hospital in Luanda, the capital of Angola, was opened with great fanfare but cracks appeared in the walls within a few months and it soon closed. The Chinese-built road from Lusaka, Zambia's capital, to Chirundu, 130km (81 miles) to the south-east, was quickly swept away by rains. I can go on and on.

http://www.africaw.com/africa-the-china-owned-continent

For National Road 8, “the quality is as weak as we’ve seen, but that’s because they hadn’t understood the [weather conditions] here in Cambodia.”

According to him, National Road 8’s rehabilitation was funded with a $71 million loan from a Chinese state-owned bank.

Construction, which began in 2008 and finished in 2012, was undertaken by Shanghai Construction (Group) General Company, a Chinese company, which has been involved in a slew of infrastructure projects in the country.


http://m.phnompenhpost.com/real-estate/national-roads-built-chinese-aid-under-fire


If pak do not have quality control then the projects will cost you dearly ..

So why is India ordering trains and railways from China, that carry millions of Indian people to work every day? :lol:
 
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Relying on one country solely will be foolishness... I came across many project that chinese took up, Majority of labour and all key positions will be chinese only.. building infra is key term for any economy, but the point is under what terms?? This is not FDI but a loan to be paid back @18%....

an example don't think otherwise...

And to those of you who don't know the type of job these numerous Chinese construction firms do in Africa, Chinese projects don't often last long. A hospital in Luanda, the capital of Angola, was opened with great fanfare but cracks appeared in the walls within a few months and it soon closed. The Chinese-built road from Lusaka, Zambia's capital, to Chirundu, 130km (81 miles) to the south-east, was quickly swept away by rains. I can go on and on.

http://www.africaw.com/africa-the-china-owned-continent

For National Road 8, “the quality is as weak as we’ve seen, but that’s because they hadn’t understood the [weather conditions] here in Cambodia.”

According to him, National Road 8’s rehabilitation was funded with a $71 million loan from a Chinese state-owned bank.

Construction, which began in 2008 and finished in 2012, was undertaken by Shanghai Construction (Group) General Company, a Chinese company, which has been involved in a slew of infrastructure projects in the country.


http://m.phnompenhpost.com/real-estate/national-roads-built-chinese-aid-under-fire


If pak do not have quality control then the projects will cost you dearly ..

I don't know much about economics, u seems to know more than me but i m still unable to understand from where u get this number 18%. Pakistanis, over here, are disagreeing with it. Pakistan, then should avoid to give contracts to those Chinese companies who do not have good credentials. Any company from any country can do fraud. It is wrong to tar all Chinese companies with same brush. Any company from any country can do fraud and they do too. Chinese are not exception. But it is wrong to assume every Chinese company coming over here will exploit and do fraud. It is non sense. I said it is up to us. Pakistanis need to decide, i hope we take correct course. Project is unique and big and requires exceptional care and attention.
 
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Do you have any proof of this 18% interest rate? Or is it just BS?


am lil mistaken..

i misread it .. edited

China is making investments on which Pakistan has given sovereign guarantee of 18% return, meaning on investment of Rs 100 Pakistan will pay them back Rs 118 (that's in Compounded interest). In some cases its about 27.2 %.

Example :-
Sinosure is charging a fee of 7pc for debt servicing, which will be added to the capital cost of a project. For instance, the capital cost of a 660MW project at Port Qasim is $767.9m. But it goes up to $956.1m by adding Sinosure’s fee of $63.9m, its financing fee and charges of $21m, and interest during construction of $72.8m; a 27.2pc return on equity is guaranteed. Ironically, interest during construction is allowed at the rate of 33.33pc for the first year; 33.33pc for the second; 13.33pc for the third; and 20pc for the fourth year.
 
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KARACHI:
Developing countries sign free trade agreements (FTAs) with trading partners mainly to increase exports and create better-paying jobs at home.

In Pakistan’s case, however, tariff revisions under FTAs have clearly not worked in its favour, numbers show. Pakistan has signed trade agreements with five countries, namely China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and Mauritius.

“None of the major trade agreements Pakistan has signed have shown a significant increase in its exports. However, imports have shown a healthy increase post-all major FTAs signed by Pakistan,” according to an assessment of trade agreements carried out by the Pakistan Business Council (PBC), an advocacy platform consisting of 47 of Pakistan’s largest businesses.

Pakistan had a trade deficit with China, Malaysia and Indonesia when it signed FTAs with them in 2006, 2008 and 2013, respectively. Its trade balance was still in negative with these countries at the end of 2014, data shows.

However, Pakistan has managed to maintain a trade surplus – albeit a small one – with Sri Lanka ($217 million) and Mauritius ($21.3 million) in post-FTA years. With the exception of China, none of these countries was among Pakistan’s top-five import and/or export partners at the end of 2014. As for China, it became Pakistan’s largest import partner, leaving behind Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, in the post-FTA years.

Read: PBC’s report on Pakistan-Indonesia trade

China’s share in Pakistan’s imports was less than 12% in 2009, but increased to more than one-fifth of its total imports at the end of 2014. China held a 5.6% share in Pakistan’s exports in 2009, which increased to 9.1% in 2014.

So what does the change show?

In its 2013 study on China-Pakistan trade partnership in the post-FTA era, the PBC found that Pakistan “appeared to have failed to benefit fully” from the agreement. The study said it was due to either Pakistani businesses were not part of the FTA negotiations or the Pakistani negotiators simply lacked the requisite information to negotiate the agreement.

In a separate assessment of the Malaysia-Pakistan FTA that was published earlier this week, PBC researchers noted that Pakistan’s exports to Malaysia have only “marginally increased” since the implementation of the FTA back in 2008.

“One reason for this failure lies in the fact that the items which have the highest potential for exports are either not part of Malaysia’s concession list or (where they are a part) competitors enjoy better tariff rates than Pakistan,” they said. Contrarily, Malaysia’s FTAs with India and China have tariffs that are lower than those in its FTA with Pakistan, putting Pakistani exports at a clear disadvantage.

Trade statistics paint a similarly gloomy picture in the case of Indonesia as well. Pakistan’s exports to Indonesia in 2014 were less than its exports in the preceding year, although Pakistan had signed a preferential trade agreement (PTA) with Indonesia in 2013.

In contrast, Indonesia’s exports to Pakistan surged 74.4% over the same year. Pakistan granted it duty preference for palm oil imports, doubling their value to $1.4 billion in a year. The PBC believes Pakistan failed to extract “any significant concessions” from its PTA with Indonesia.

One of the reasons Pakistan’s various trade agreements have not achieved the desired results is the lack of involvement of the Pakistani business community in the drafting of such agreements, according to the PBC.

Read: Data-sharing system planned to tackle misreporting

It says many local manufacturers and exporters are simply unaware of the exportable items that are part of the zero per cent tariff track in these FTAs.

“The government needs to ensure that the focus (in FTAs) is not only on concessions for agriculture-based exports, but that the value-added manufacturing sector has access to markets that allow it to develop critical mass,” it added.

The writer is a staff correspondent

Published in The Express Tribune, August 10th, 2015.

Like Business on Facebook, follow @TribuneBiz on Twitter to stay informed and join in the conversation.

KARACHI:
The influx of Chinese steel in the country is hurting the local industry, lamented an official, adding that the widening price difference is also causing imports to rise.

Apart from the private sector, Pakistan Steel Mills (PSM) – the only integrated steel mill in Pakistan – is also facing a stiff challenge due to Chinese imports.

“The PSM is finding it very difficult to compete in the current situation because the cheap imported steel is hurting its market just because of the price difference,” a PSM official told The Express Tribune.

Although, PSM is not producing billets – a thick steel bar that serves as a basic raw-material for different steel products – these days, it has been facing problems in selling its products owing to its higher cost of production.

According to industry officials, since January, over 100,000 tons of steel billets and hot-rolled coils have been imported from China at prices that are dramatically decreasing month after month.

437.jpg


This is due to the difference of over Rs6,000 between locally produced billets and the imported ones. Current steel billet prices of PSM range between Rs67,000-68,000 per ton including sales tax while the price of Chinese billets after duties and taxes at today’s prices are in the range of Rs60,000-62,000.

As the Chinese economy slows down and domestic consumption drops, the world’s largest steel manufacturing nation has a massive oversupply problem. Over the past few months, cheap steel products from China have flooded the domestic markets due to subsidies on electricity and rebates on exports provided by the Chinese government to manufacturers.

Local steel makers say that Chinese manufacturers have resorted to dump their steel products in other countries by relying on government subsidies, tariff concessions through Free Trade Agreement (FTA) and marginal cost pricing mechanisms.

The two main products manufactured by PSM are steel billets and steel hot rolled coils. In a commodity product such as steel billets and coils, margins are usually thin and with price differentials of Rs6,000 per ton, PSM is facing problems in finding buyers.

Since cheap Chinese steel imports are poised to win a larger market share, the demand for PSM products is expected to decline – leaving its management once again with cash flow issues and having to go back to the begging bowl for further handouts from the government.

Countries such as Egypt, Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, US and India have countered this threat through imposing counter-veiling duties, regulatory duties and other non-tariff barriers to protect their local steel industry. Due to concessions given through the Free Trade Agreement and mis-declaration of non-alloy steel goods as alloy steel, the appropriate tariff barriers are not in place to protect PSM and the rest of Pakistan’s steel industry.

Published in The Express Tribune, November 27th, 2014.

Donot depend Chinese steel imports .Even UK couldnt stand against the cheaper Chinese steel import .
They will literally wipe out entire Pak steel industry.

Generally speaking, FTAs have never been good for Pakistan. They've almost always favored the other nations, more than they have Pakistani industries, which is one of the reasons behind the huge export deficit.

I think this is either due to lack of understanding of Pak negotiators or due to their hesitation of involving their industry in negotiation or discussion.
 
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am lil mistaken..

i misread it .. edited

China is making investments on which Pakistan has given sovereign guarantee of 18% return, meaning on investment of Rs 100 Pakistan will pay them back Rs 118 (that's in Compounded interest). In some cases its about 27.2 %.

Example :-
Sinosure is charging a fee of 7pc for debt servicing, which will be added to the capital cost of a project. For instance, the capital cost of a 660MW project at Port Qasim is $767.9m. But it goes up to $956.1m by adding Sinosure’s fee of $63.9m, its financing fee and charges of $21m, and interest during construction of $72.8m; a 27.2pc return on equity is guaranteed. Ironically, interest during construction is allowed at the rate of 33.33pc for the first year; 33.33pc for the second; 13.33pc for the third; and 20pc for the fourth year.

Where is the official statement from any Chinese/Pakistani representitive to back up this stupid 18% interest rate figure?
 
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in business there r always individual winners & losers Chinese side will eliminate tariff on 90% pak products while we on their 75%
labor and living costs r cheaper in pak then china but the issues r lack/expensive electricity & availability of raw material power projects of cpec will hep in 1st and china is also the biggest supplier of semi-processed input materials so cpec will also assure their cheap availability to pak industries so they r more competitive in other other markets
 
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es Somebozo is not indian but Indians (not pointing u) seems to worry too much about CPEC and its negative impact on Pakistan. This is the puzzle i m still unable to solve...Indians oppose this project and they will try to create misunderstanding regarding CPEC.

Informed Indians are only opposed to the stretch being planned on disputed territory. Thats all. A part of the comments are cheap shots or banter. The remaining are an attempt to understand this endeavour which is very OPAQUE in execution. No one for god sake even knows the interest rate on which loans are being granted. Unbelievable.

Do you have any proof of this 18% interest rate? Or is it just BS?

Thats the point no one has proof of anything. :) What a ride you are taking Pakistan on. Gotta respect that ! :lol:
 
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nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .

So your national interest will succeed if a mere infrastructure projects hurt India?
I really hope your diplomats are better than this .
Our only concern is that small portion of that disputed area .
 
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