The Pakistan Ultimatum

[foxbat]

Well, it is quite unreasonable to use the phrase "the whole world" (as foxbat did). This phrase seems to be far too common.

Especially since it doesn't apply to large chunks of the world, such as China (1.3 billion people), and the Islamic world (1.5 billion people).

These two combined, make up almost half of the global population.

Then Africa (1 billion) and South America (0.4 billion), etc.

Err.. This is what I said in this thread..

^ Frankly to most of the world (in SMC's words, India and parts of the west), it really doesnt matter what Pakistan has lost to terrorism or what she is deploying to fight it as for them, these terrorists have been created in the 1st place by Pakistan..So getting sympathy in that area is pretty much impossible for Pak

So was the whole world context from a different thread or am i missing something??

 

[Hulk]

BTW drone strikes will only work against US interests as far as WoT is concerned. You might kill 10 or 20 terrorists but you will create a 100 new.

That's the reason why US ain't winning this war right now and never will. Right now the best option for the US is to leave with half-decency right now compared to full blown humiliation 4 or 5 years down the road.

The same logic can be applied to Pakistan Army's operations in SWAT and KP etc. Are you trying to tell only collateral damage done by drone will create more terrorist and other collateral damage's will not?

One has to be really inane to think that, drones killed TTP which reduced terror strikes inside Pakistan or are you debating that as well.

 

[muse]

Lets be honest here for a second, this alliance has caused us more harm than good and no matter how much help they extend to us, all they end up inducing is further damage to Pakistan.

I had been a great supporter of the idea that Pakistan once again with the US, that this time it would be different, that they understood, they realized the full implications -- But I have discovered I have been very wrong, that they are fanatics and in their own way, they are the same as religious fanatics - and I am sorry to say that you have a point, it's just undeniable.

This army of ours has truly been the most timid in all this, firstly they did the bidding for US and now their master spy is running around the world trying to garner support against the drone strike.

And worse still it continues to deceive the people of Pakistan, it n welcome to just on both sides of the issue, it's on all sides - it's that ambiguity that we were speaking of - ambiguity with everyone, about everything, that's why we as Pakistanis seem to not be able to count on an institution that should be ours, but we find is it's own and we are to tag along or not.

Pakistan has a few friends left, most of whom will slowly turn the blind eye to what happens in this country. The so called Islamic world will be the tool that destroys Pakistan because those whore puppets will obey their pimp in whatever circumstances that occur.

This is the time to firstly eradicate the militants within and change the ideology being forced onto this nation. Its is highly likely that the US will evade Pakistan once again and this time Pakistani's will have to formulate a better strategy based on past betrayals

.

I encourage you to follow a thread on the land forces board - "Towards a New and Improved Fauj" (avoid the sidelines Indian friends are interested in -- you will see that a section of opinion absolutely will not abandon the Islamists and for them it's an imperative to define Pakistan as during the Zia years, India, read Hindu, is in the inhuman enemy and all will be OK the sooner the rest of us accept it - in that thread I think, perhaps it's my bias, but I think you will see how determined is this opinion that the interests this opinion supports survives, even if Pakistan does not.

All this militant sponsoring, strategic depth, we are Islamic nonsense has failed terribly and its time out to either put out or back off. If and I mean if a situation does arise where Pakistan is attacked, I hope it goes with a bang taking many with us. There is a place close by that belongs to our 'brothers', we can cause a lot of damage if we set fire to their black gold. Our reply to their ultimatum, if we go down, we are taking you down with us.

What ? do a Samson (Shamshuddin) on them? they deserve it and so do we .

 

[Meengla]

@Muse,
After some interesting posts in this Topic, your last post above is not very convincing.
Have you and others paused to ponder what choices Pakistan had on 12 Sept. 2001? I don't think there is any doubt about the fact that Pakistan would have really santioned and bombed soon after that.
SO...Musharraf did the smart thing: Bought time, while at the same time started working on Plan B: Have an alternate source of power in Afghanistan for post-America period. I guess the Pakistani strategists have known before 9/11 that America would go to any length to please India. Not only that serves to 'contain' China but also, as Obama recently boasted, his India tour would generate 50,000 jobs for Americans. And there is much more money to be made off India.
Damn be Pakistan's 'sensitivities' and 'strategic interests' so long as American goals are met.
I can't really blame America for that. We all know everything is about $$$, all over the world except in some exceptional cases between nations.
Pakistani military strategists were and are on the right track. I think there is still the Plan B in place. Plan A is also in place: Limited co-operation with America. All the while, as I said in my previous post here, Pakistani military is fixated on India--and rightly so, despite all the nicely-put theories about.

I think you and some others are too hard in Pakistani Army. I can certainly blame retards like Zia ul Haq for turning the country to a Jihadi factory but I think Musharraf and others in PA have been hard-core pragmatists.

Finally--and perhaps of utmost importance: Pakistan's economy is likely to suffer greatly should there be a break with the West on Afghanistan. In some other united and honest nations the ruling class and the masses would have preferred to eat the 'proverbial grass'. But Pakistanis are not willing to do so.

 

[muse]

There must be some misunderstanding because I think we are on the same page --

Have you and others paused to ponder what choices Pakistan had on 12 Sept. 2001?

Yes, that's why I supported the engagement with the US, but over the last year in particular, I have come to understand that such an intimate or strategic engagement is a net loss for Pakistan.

BTW, could not agree more on the Army and India fixation -- I understand it and understand the interest ($$) behind it.

 

[SMC]

Buddy, its not just TTP. TTP may or may not have been created by Pak (even if the people believing the former will largely outnumber the later, may be because of the large population of India ), but its the overall perception that Pakistan carries in the West including most of Europe as the hotbed of terrorism.

You were arguing something something else however, in your post. You were saying that the terrorists created by Pakistan are attacking Pakistan in your post. And obviously TTP was not created by Pakistan.

While you may chose to classify your arguments as facts( i dont believe that Pakistan's claimed innocence in terrorist activities is as clear as 2+2 =4.. more like 2+2 = 22), and others facts are arguments, in reality it doesnt change a thing.. does it..??

Your claim was that whole world looks at Pakistan in a certain way. I am merely pointing out that it's not a fact - bharatis somehow have deluded themselves into such non sense that the whole world looks at Pakistan this way or that way or the whole world have certain beliefs about Pakistan. It's just bharat and some parts of the west. That's it. That's a fact -- not an argument, China, middle eastern countries, east asian countries, african and south american countries, and even some European (especially Eastern european countries) don't look at Pakistan the way you claim it does.

Yes, I know that those countries are not effected by terrorism. But they're still part of the "whole world", hence your claim is incorrect.

 

[SMC]

All of Pakistani members who are wishing USA away from Afghanistan are looking at the current situation from a Vietnam or soviet Afgh prism. That in my view is an error. NATO/USA is no longer playing an occupation game. A good measure of how they are operating in afghanistan can seen by looking at the monthly casualties figures for USA and NATO troops and comparing them with the opposition. And this talk of USA kicked out of Afg has been going on for last 2-3 years. I remember the jubilation on this forum after Obama made it to the White house and announced the possible withdrawal. Well, the time for his withdrawal from White house is almost here, and there doesnt seem to be any downslide happeneing in the USA presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan. If any thing USA has become more and more belligerent as far as its operations in Pakistan are concerned.

The sooner you accept that, the easier it will become

Obviously no one expected US to leave in 2011. That's a foolish thing to claim that people were expecting US to leave in 2011. However, US is expected to wind down the WoT in 2011 summer. You have to see how much area of Afghanistan the Taliban controls today. It's 60% today, used to be 70%. Not much difference since the surge. The fact is that us pays warlords to keep the war running in Afghanistan. They pay Taliban to not attack them. As soon as that changes, you'll have body bags returning in 100s to the US. US dare not venture in Taliban territory that Taliban controls. Only in small parts of it.

 

[SMC]

The same logic can be applied to Pakistan Army's operations in SWAT and KP etc. Are you trying to tell only collateral damage done by drone will create more terrorist and other collateral damage's will not?

One has to be really inane to think that, drones killed TTP which reduced terror strikes inside Pakistan or are you debating that as well.

It can't be applied to Pakistan army because Pakistan army is fighting within its own borders. Same can't be said for US or NATO.

Drones have had minimal damage on TTP. At best they've killed a few hundred TTP operatives. The several thousand killed by PA military operations are far more important.

 

[F-16_Falcon]

Aren't they the snakes in all this, the coward bandits known as the royal family of Saudi Arabia.

In regards to the topic, I have had enough of these threats emanating from the that hypocritical and violent superpower that we call our 'ally'.

Lets be honest here for a second, this alliance has caused us more harm than good and no matter how much help they extend to us, all they end up inducing is further damage to Pakistan.

This army of ours has truly been the most timid in all this, firstly they did the bidding for US and now their master spy is running around the world trying to garner support against the drone strike.

Pakistan has a few friends left, most of whom will slowly turn the blind eye to what happens in this country. The so called Islamic world will be the tool that destroys Pakistan because those whore puppets will obey their pimp in whatever circumstances that occur.

This is the time to firstly eradicate the militants within and change the ideology being forced onto this nation. Its is highly likely that the US will evade Pakistan once again and this time Pakistani's will have to formulate a better strategy based on past betrayals.

All this militant sponsoring, strategic depth, we are Islamic nonsense has failed terribly and its time out to either put out or back off.

If and I mean if a situation does arise where Pakistan is attacked, I hope it goes with a bang taking many with us.

There is a place close by that belongs to our 'brothers', we can cause a lot of damage if we set fire to their black gold.

Our reply to their ultimatum, if we go down, we are taking you down with us.

I do not think we can do this as far as Saudis got American support. I can see Saudi dirty hands in many Pakistani affairs though.

 

[F-16_Falcon]

Well, see Najam Sethi's piece -- but really I would also point something out to our readers - I just want you to note that at least in Pakistan there is wide and public discussion and taking responsibility is part and parcel of that - but look at the issue in the US?? What public debate?

US needs to review her policy and needs to be rid of the policy makers who have managed the policy and brought it to this dead end --

where is najam sethi's videos? please give the links.

And if you dig a little deeper you will note that the Saudi Prince Talal is the second largest investor of newscorp - Al Brince don't like it when you think for yourself that's why he got fair and balanced for you

yes saudis are playing a dirty game with us as they do not have stronghold in pakistan any more.

 

[F-16_Falcon]

Like the way we r handling US with loyalty and being hypocritic to our pplz...we realli deserve stoneage ...

may be you are true. army and air force condemning drone killing was the worst.

 

[muse]

where is najam sethi's videos? please give the links.

You can read the entire piece here:

The Pakistan ultimatum by Najam Sethi | Columnspk.com | English Newspaper Columns, News, Top Stories, World News, Politics, Middle East

 

[foxbat]

You were arguing something something else however, in your post. You were saying that the terrorists created by Pakistan are attacking Pakistan in your post. And obviously TTP was not created by Pakistan.



Your claim was that whole world looks at Pakistan in a certain way. I am merely pointing out that it's not a fact - bharatis somehow have deluded themselves into such non sense that the whole world looks at Pakistan this way or that way or the whole world have certain beliefs about Pakistan. It's just bharat and some parts of the west. That's it. That's a fact -- not an argument, China, middle eastern countries, east asian countries, african and south american countries, and even some European (especially Eastern european countries) don't look at Pakistan the way you claim it does.

Yes, I know that those countries are not effected by terrorism. But they're still part of the "whole world", hence your claim is incorrect.

The phrase, the whole world (which i I didnt use), does not technically mean 100% of the world population. It is used as a substitute to majority opinion. And about your claim that its only India and USA that share the negative opinion about Pakistan, well, go thru the below "WESTERN PROPAGANDA"

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/mar11/BBCEvals_Mar11_rpt.pdf

Looks like even if I did use the phrase in question, I wouldnt have been too off the mark

Special mention needs to be made to the chinese opinion of Pakistan

 

[foxbat]

Obviously no one expected US to leave in 2011. That's a foolish thing to claim that people were expecting US to leave in 2011. However, US is expected to wind down the WoT in 2011 summer. You have to see how much area of Afghanistan the Taliban controls today. It's 60% today, used to be 70%. Not much difference since the surge. The fact is that us pays warlords to keep the war running in Afghanistan. They pay Taliban to not attack them. As soon as that changes, you'll have body bags returning in 100s to the US. US dare not venture in Taliban territory that Taliban controls. Only in small parts of it.

exactly the wishful thinking i was refering to. You think winding down is a joke that 1 fine day USA general will get up and say that lets start winding down. There are zero preparations on the ground as a prelude to that so anticipated (by Pakistan) wind down. If anything, the area of operations within pakistan has been going up. and so is the tone of USA diplomats and military folks about their presence and activities in the area.

 

[RazorMC]

And if you dig a little deeper you will note that the Saudi Prince Talal is the second largest investor of newscorp - Al Brince don't like it when you think for yourself that's why he got fair and balanced for you

Honestly speaking, the royalty in certain countries is inextricably linked to the US through heavy investments in various sectors including the defense industry.

So why is it that we are still unable to get offers from these sources where our "fiends" have some say in the matter ?? We were even refused deferred payments for oil. These friends turned out to be the same as our friend in N.America !

The only time we see good ties with our "pals" is during a military regime.