The Myth of Sedition and its use as a Political Tool

[Joe Shearer]

wont leave him all on his own, even though i know he wont need any support but lets say what is right and say it together shall we?

The problem is that the bhakts, @Soumitra , for instance, are not being hypocritical; to their minds, adjective-free, adverb-free minds, this is reality; this is sedtion. They aren't working themselves up; to them it's true, and that's where an irresistible force hits an immovable object.

 

[Spectre]

Yet she roams the street, right? Why?

Is India, as a nation state, so weak that it can not accept criticism? What do you think? I am seriously surprised at the amount of attention which people receive for being 'anti-national' and 'seditious'. Why can't one ignore them? Why give them the bandwidth?

If you do not agree with someone, is it necessary to react to them? Won't it be better to ignore them and let the security agencies do the necessary work?

You deny them the bandwidth and the sound bytes they desire, allow them a 'free hand' wherein their supporters and fellow compatriots come under scanner automatically due to the 'free hand' and maintain the sanity of the mainstream.

I posed those questions not at @Soumitra but to every 'patriot' Indian who feels an 'assault' to their nationalism and patriotism just because the views do not fall in line with the general perception they hold.

There is an issue of non conformance and then there is an issue of willful harm to national interests, aiding and abetting the enemy and sabotage of National security.

1. Arundhati Roy, Kanhaiya, Aakar Patel and their ilk will not fall in the above category. They AFAIK are just exercising their right to free speech.
2. Geelani perhaps will because he does a lot more than speak but the situation is complicated because due to past miss-steps by Nehru
3. Bigger threats are guys like SP Tyagi who actively betrayed the trust nation placed in them but will be shielded by equally corrupt and treasonous brethern in polity.
4. Mani Shankar Aiyar, Salman Khursheed, IK Gujral form altogether another level of threat because they alone can actually destroy our country with a seat at the high table and dangerous policies but legally there is not much can be done

 

[Soumitra]

The problem is that the bhakts, @Soumitra , for instance, are not being hypocritical; to their minds, adjective-free, adverb-free minds, this is reality; this is sedtion. They aren't working themselves up; to them it's true, and that's where an irresistible force hits an immovable object.

I have made a point in post #6 of junking sedition and making a law against anti nationalism. Any act or words which are against the constitution as anti national. So I wont call what Ramya said or someone visiting ancestral homes across the border as sedition but "Bharat Tere tukde honge inshaallah" is clearly sedition and anti nationalism.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I have made a point in post #6 of junking sedition and making a law against anti nationalism. Any act or words which are against the constitution as anti national. So I wont call what Ramya said or someone visiting ancestral homes across the border as sedition but "Bharat Tere tukde honge inshaallah" is clearly sedition and anti nationalism.

That immediately outlaws any call for constitutional reform, INCLUDING, Bhakt Baba, calls for rescindment of Article 370.

There is an issue of non conformance and then there is an issue of willful harm to national interests, aiding and abetting the enemy and sabotage of National security.

1. Arundhati Roy, Kanhaiya, Aakar Patel and their ilk will not fall in the above category. They AFAIK are just exercising their right to free speech.
2. Geelani perhaps will because he does a lot more than speak but the situation is complicated because due to past miss-steps by Nehru
3. Bigger threats are guys like SP Tyagi who actively betrayed the trust nation placed in them but will be shielded by equally corrupt and treasonous brethern in polity.
4. Mani Shankar Aiyar, Salman Khursheed, IK Gujral form altogether another level of threat because they alone can actually destroy our country with a seat at the high table and dangerous policies but legally there is not much can be done

I had promised myself the rare pleasure of abstaining, but as a matter of fact, NONE of the people you have listed are liable to be either prosecuted or punished. Cases against them would fail. It is an infructuous Act.

 

[Soumitra]

That immediately outlaws any call for constitutional reform, INCLUDING, Bhakt Baba, calls for rescindment of Article 370.

Dont you know the concept of constitutional amendment? We have amended the constitution 112 times. There is a mechanism given within the constitution itself by which it can be amended. So call for removal of article 370 and using the constituional provisions to do the same are not anti national

I had promised myself the rare pleasure of abstaining, but as a matter of fact, NONE of the people you have listed are liable to be either prosecuted or punished. Cases against them would fail. It is an infructuous Act.

Others may escape on the technicality that there words dont incite direct voilence but geelani wont.

All these- arundhati Roy, Kanhaiya Kumar, Akar Patel will be following the letter of the law not its spirit

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dont you know the concept of constitutional amendment? We have amended the constitution 112 times. There is a mechanism given within the constitution itself by which it can be amended. So call for removal of article 370 and using the constituional provisions to do the same are not anti national

Good Heavens! Is there such a thing? Why did nobody tell me all these years?

How, sage, do you distinguish between someone saying,"Our Constitution is useless. Article 370 should never have been there" and someone saying,"We urgently need to repeal Article 370", considering that these are both almost the same thought, and could well be seen as a sequence?

What statement against the Constitution is NOT to be taken as a call for amendment or as a call for a greater overhaul, but as a call for overthrow of the rule of law and of the Constitution which provides a framework for it?

Others may escape on the technicality that there words dont incite direct voilence but geelani wont.

All these- arundhati Roy, Kanhaiya Kumar, Akar Patel will be following the letter of the law not its spirit

And how do you distinguish between those following the letter of the law, and those following its spirit?

 

[Spectre]

That immediately outlaws any call for constitutional reform, INCLUDING, Bhakt Baba, calls for rescindment of Article 370.



I had promised myself the rare pleasure of abstaining, but as a matter of fact, NONE of the people you have listed are liable to be either prosecuted or punished. Cases against them would fail. It is an infructuous Act.

I know, I was just placing them on the threat matrix - from harmless to malignant.

Most people here are ignorant of the difference b/w sedition and treason. While sedition is legally fuzzy, treason is not.

P.S. Just to clarify - Sedition is an act (not speech though speech itself is an act) against Govt, not country while treason is an act against country.

Thank you

 

[Joe Shearer]

I know, I was just placing them on the threat matrix - from harmless to malignant.

Most people here are ignorant of the difference b/w sedition and treason. While sedition is legally fuzzy, treason is not.

P.S. Just to clarify - Sedition is an act (not speech though speech itself is an act) against Govt, not country while treason is an act against country.

Thank you

As a matter of fact, even Tyagi cannot be charged with treason.

 

[Spectre]

As a matter of fact, even Tyagi cannot be charged with treason.

Again I am cognizant of this fact. But is his act any less harmful to the country than Ravi Shankaran's?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Again I am cognizant of this fact. But is his act any less harmful to the country than Ravi Shankaran's?

Worse, in fact.

But in legal matters, precision and accuracy in terminology is everything. Common sense is nothing (that was gratis; you won't get a bill, since you have been thanking me with such elaborate and deadly courtesy).

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ah, was that a cc?

 

[Hellfire]

The NDTVs and Hindus of the media make these Anti Nationals main stream. You have heard about cancerous growth? it starts small and then rapidly spreads. It starts with one or two statements they are ignored by the govt and lauded in the name of free speech by the pliant media. Some govts actively encourage these statements as they fit their narratives and vote bank politics. It is later their followers and supporters grow that creates a problem.If and when the security personnel take action the leftists media denounces it as attack on free speech.

Exactly. Why are you, and I mean 'common' people here, getting affected? Why do you think is it happening?

A prime example is Zakir Naik. For years he has been allowed to spew his venom. Now when his followers are caught doing terrorist activities is the scum coming under scrutiny and he is conviniently hiding in saudi Arabia to avoid being brought under book

Have you seen Peace TV? Apart from it being crap ... I have not found anything offensive in it. His opinion. Why did I&B give him a license? Why so many religious channels on TATA SKY or AIRTEL or DISH or SUN DTH? Why not a blanket ban? Any reasons?

I am happy that govt was strict in taking action against Kanhaiya Kumar and Umar Khalid. We should nip the problem in the bud before it becomes a big issue

What happened to them?

So to answer your question YES it is neccesary to react to them and NO it wont be better to ignore them and let the security personnel do their job because by the time security personnel act it media portrays them as some proponent of free speech

What did you achieve by reacting here?

A terrorist becomes a son of a headmaster. the family members of the terrorists are glorified and the security forces are treated like demons. We cant let that happen

Why do you think that is happening?


Am waiting for your answer!

 

[Spectre]

Worse, in fact.

But in legal matters, precision and accuracy in terminology is everything. Common sense is nothing (that was gratis; you won't get a bill, since you have been thanking me with such elaborate and deadly courtesy).

Perhaps that is why the law has become preserve of the rich and landed. Perhaps that is why Salman Khan can get away homicide, perhaps that is why Jayalalitha can loot her body's weight in diamonds and still be exonerated. For all the laurels of Indian Legal System - one cannot deny the dark undertones of systematic corruption.

Law has to accessible it has to be logical and it has to consistent. Accessibility, logic and consistency coincidentally also defines "common sense".

Yeah I know I am cribbing - for every one corrupt judge, we have two honest ones but then Justice has to be flawless. This is the very foundation of Law - Consistent and Fair towards all.

 

[Sky lord]

And which lady might that be?

My bad...the article has a feminine vibe so I thought the author was a lady...apparently not.

Oh by the ways, Arundhati Roy? Why did the government of the day, BJP, not revoke the passport when she publicly stated that she renounces her citizenship of India in the aftermath of the Nuclear Test? Why, indeed, did she not surrender her passport and still uses it?So

How is that sedition? It is not sedition to protest. It is not sedition to say you are ashamed of your country or that you no longer wish to belong to it.

On the other hand when Mani Shanker Aiyer asked for Pakistans help to dislodge a democratically and legally elected government in India ...that is sedition....and the fact that people like him get away with this is the weakness of India.

 

[Hellfire]

@Spectre @Soumitra Putting a hurriedly drafted write up by a young soldier ... a thought provoking write up, which I am trying to summarise.

1. I write to you, not knowing whether you have served the nation as a soldier or not. But seeing your enthusiasm, nay, your love for your nation, may I just put a few words across?

2. I have no ideology, I have no politics. My ideology is the ideology of the day, my politics, that of my legally elected government of the day.

3. I hold no holy book as sacred, nor any scriptures dear, my only 'gospel' is the Constitution of India. I live by it, I die by it.

4. I do not hate the Arundhati Roys, Kanhaiya Kumars, or the plethora of people who have made criticising and speaking against this nation their hobby and at times, their profession. Nor do I love those people, who post facebook posts hailing the death of the soldier, but the very next moment act an irresponsible citizen.

5. I do not claim the right to being the reason for the nation, nor do I claim the exclusiveness of my work being the sole identity of the nation. My contribution for the country is not more, nor less than either the doctor who is providing the medical care, the engineer who is involved in various projects, the farmer who toils night and day to provide food, the under appreciated government employee who may be working to provide the basic amenities., in fact, anyone of my fellow country(wo)men.

6. I do not want your thanks, nor want your sorrow when I fall. I chose the route that I am on, freely, wilfully and knowing what it entailed.

7. I don't care for the money either, you can't compensate me for the loss that I suffer, ever. But it is what I swore to bore, when I put on my uniform. If it was money, I could earn more, with my potential outside.

8. I may personally not agree with everything you say, nor you with me. But I promise you this, for every second of my breath, no one will be able to take that right away from you.

9. But what I want you to understand, in no uncertain terms, is, that I expect you to be good citizen to this nation.

It was pretty long and I misplaced this gem ... hence tried to pen it out. Not exactly an English literature specimen, but point 8 & 9 , that is what I wanted to convey.

How is that sedition? It is not sedition to protest. It is not sedition to say you are ashamed of your country or that you no longer wish to belong to it.

On the other hand when Mani Shanker Aiyer asked for Pakistans help to dislodge a democratically and legally elected government in India ...that is sedition....and the fact that people like him get away with this is the weakness of India.

That, my dear, is against the policy of the government, which did NOT affect the individual or her rights and duties as a citizen.

Leave that apart. Am not saying it is sedition. Am saying - she could have surrendered the Passport, who stopped her?

Dont dissect and quote please. It is irritating and annoying.