THE MYTH OF NORTH AFRICA AS ARAB,UNCOVERED

[Taimoor Khan]

Its is a very interesting study. The Egyptians for instance, had their own civilization, ancient lot, more importantly, their ancestors during the time of Nile civilization, spoke some other native language, not Arabic. Which suggests that Egyptians were not Arabs. Geographically speaking, Egypt is the first country which connects with Arabian peninsula. So if, logically speaking, the Egyptian were not Arabs, how come the nations like Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco , which lies further west, can be Arabs?

Pakistan has got its own civilization, infact the oldest of them all, the mighty Indus, and we are considered to be one of the most conservative society in Islamic world, yet we have kept our own ways, our ancient regional languages and our own national language, so from this background, curious to know as to what caused the north Africans to adopt Arabic as their language, and classify themselves as Arabs?

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Its is a very interesting study. The Egyptians for instance, had their own civilization, ancient lot, more importantly, their ancestors during the time of Nile civilization, spoke some other native language, not Arabic. Which suggests that Egyptians were not Arabs. Geographically speaking, Egypt is the first country which connects with Arabian peninsula. So if, logically speaking, the Egyptian were not Arabs, how come the nations like Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco , which lies further west, can be Arabs?

Pakistan has got its own civilization, infact the oldest of them all, the mighty Indus, and we are considered to be one of the most conservative society in Islamic world, yet we have kept our own ways, our ancient regional languages and our own national language, so from this background, it is intriguing to know what caused the north Africans to adopt Arabic as their language, and classify themselves as Arabs?

Where is the data and findings? What is the source and where is the link to that 23-sentence long "article"?

The "findings" (dubious if not an outright lie) in that 23-sentence long "article" are contrary to the genetic findings in almost every genetic paper and research published on this topic so far.

Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa​

"In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that “the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century ad, … [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement” (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (ce).

In the sample of NW Africans (Bosch et al. 2001), 16 (9.1%) of the 176 Y chromosomes studied were of Eu10 (H71 on a haplogroup 9 background). Of these 16 chromosomes, 14 formed a compact microsatellite network: 7 individuals shared a single haplotype, and the haplotypes of the other 7 were one or two mutational steps removed. This low diversity may be indicative of a recent founder effect. Where did these chromosomes come from?

The highest frequency of Eu10 (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001). The most frequent Eu10 microsatellite haplotype in NW Africans is identical to a modal haplotype (DYS19-14, DYS388-17, DYS390-23, DYS391-11, DYS392-11, DYS393-12) of Moslem Arabs who live in a small area in the north of Israel, the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000). This haplotype, which is present in the Galilee at 18.5%, was termed the modal haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) (Nebel et al. 2000). Notably, it is absent from two distinct non-Arab Middle Eastern populations, Jews and Muslim Kurds, both of whom have significant Eu10 frequencies—18% and 12%, respectively (Nebel et al. 2001). Interestingly, this modal haplotype is also the most frequent haplotype (11 [∼41%] of 27 individuals) in the population from the town of Sena, in Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Its single-step neighbor is the most common haplotype of the Yemeni Hadramaut sample (5 [∼10%] of 49 chromosomes; Thomas et al. 2000). The presence of this particular modal haplotype at a significant frequency in three separate geographic locales (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen) makes independent genetic-drift events unlikely.

It should be noted that the Yemeni samples (Thomas et al. 2000) were not typed for the binary markers (p12f2 and M172) that define Eu10. However, both Yemeni modal haplotypes are present on a haplogroup background compatible with Eu10. These haplotypes carry a DYS388 allele with a high number of repeats (i.e., 17). High repeat numbers of DYS388, ⩾15, were found to occur almost exclusively on Hg9, which comprises Eu9 and Eu10. Furthermore, in a sample of a six Middle Eastern populations, chromosomes with 17 repeats are frequent (40%) in Eu10 and rare (7%) in Eu9 (Nebel et al. 2001).

The term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century bce (Eph'al 1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins (Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp. 19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190; Beeston 1995; also see Peters 1999). Migrations of southern Arabian tribes northwards have been recorded mainly since the 3d century ce. These tribes settled in various places in central and northern Arabia, as well as in the Fertile Crescent, including areas that are now part of Israel (Dussaud 1955; Ricci 1984). The emergence of Islam in the 7th century ce furthered the unification of the Arabian tribal populations. This unified Arab-Islamic community engaged in a large movement of expansion, the Fertile Crescent and Egypt being the first areas to have been conquered. It is very difficult to trace the tribal composition of the Muslim armies, but it is known that tribes of Yemeni origin formed the bulk of those Muslim contingents that conquered Egypt in the middle of the 7th century ce. Egypt was the primary base for raids further west into the Maghrib. The conquest of North Africa was difficult and took a few decades to complete (Abun-Nasr 1987). The region was militarily and administratively attached to Egypt until the beginning of the 8th century ce. Arab tribes of northern origin entered North Africa as well, both as troops and as migrants. A major wave of migration of such tribes, the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym, occurred during the 11th century ce (Abun-Nasr 1987). Thus, the Arabs, both southern (Yemeni) and northern, added to the heterogeneous Maghribi ethnic melting pot.

Little is known of the origins of the indigenous population of the Maghrib, the Berbers, except that they have always been a composite people. After the 8th century ce, a process of Arabization affected the bulk of the Berbers, while the Arab-Islamic culture and population absorbed local elements as well. Under the unifying framework of Islam, on the one hand, and as a result of the Arab settlement, on the other, a fusion took place that resulted in a new ethnocultural entity all over the Maghrib. In addition, Berber tribes sometimes claimed Arab descent in order to enhance their prestige. For example, the Berber nomadic tribe of the western Sahara, the Lamtuna, claimed descent from one of the South Arabian eponyms, Himyar. One of the chiefs of this Berber tribe, Lamtuna, is sometimes referred to as Saharawi, meaning “one of the nomads” or “one who comes from the Sahara” (Ibn al-Athir 1898, p. 462; Ibn Khallikan 1972, pp. 113, 128–129; Lewicki 1986). In Arabic sources, however, the name Saharawi is seldom used and does not seem to refer to a specific genealogical group. In light of these historical data, it is not surprising to find, among the Berbers and contemporary Saharawis of northern Africa, Y chromosomes that may have been introduced by recurrent waves of invaders from the Arabian Peninsula.

These documented historical events, together with the finding of a particular Eu10 haplotype in Yemenis, Palestinians, and NW Africans, are suggestive of a recent common origin of these chromosomes. Remarkably, the only non-Arabs in whom this haplotype has been observed to date are the Berbers (Bosch et al. 2001). It appears that the Eu10 chromosome pool in NW Africa is derived not only from early Neolithic dispersions but also from recent expansions from the Arabian peninsula.

American Society of Human Genetics"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379148/

Also I was not aware of their being an "Arab" or "North African" genome considering the fact that all haplogroups predate all living ethnic groups by millennia and given that all ethnic groups are social constructs.

Anyway this runs contrary to ground realities which show the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)

Basically across the entire Arab world (which shares a millennia long common Semitic and Afro-Asiatic history and ancestry that predates the Neolithic period and all existing ethnic groups in the Arab world) the same haplogroups are found. The only difference is their frequency but Arabs cluster with each other more than any other people on all genetic tests which is not strange given history.


Genetics

Haplogroup J and E1b1b are the most frequent Y-DNA haplogroups in the Arab world. E1b1b is the most frequent paternal clade among the populations in the western part of the Arab world (Maghreb, Nile Valley and Horn of Africa), whereas haplogroup J is the most frequent paternal clade toward the east (Arabian peninsula and Near East). Other less common haplogroups are R1a, R1b, G, I, L and T.[304][305][306][307][308][309][310][311][312][313][314][315][316]


J-M267

J-M172

E-M215

Listed here are the human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups in Arabian peninsula, Mashriq/Levant, Maghreb and Nile Valley.[317][318][319][320][321][322][323] Yemeni Arabs J(82.3%), E1b1b (12.9%) and E1b1a (3.2%).[324][325] Saudi Arabs J1 (58%), E1b1b(7.6%), E1b1a (7.6%), R1a (5.1%), T (5.1%), G (3.2%) and L (1.9%).[326][327] Emirati Arabs J (45.1%), E1b1b (11.6%), R1a (7.3%), E1b1a (5.5%), T (4.9%), R1b (4.3%) and L (3%).[324] Omani Arabs J (47.9%), E1b1b (15.7%), R1a (9.1%), T (8.3%), E1b1a (7.4%), R1b (1.7%), G (1.7%) and L (0.8%).[328] Qatari Arabs J (66.7%), R1a (6.9%), E1b1b (5.6%), E1b1a (2.8%), G (2.8%) and L (2.8%).[329][330] Lebanese Arabs J (45.2%), E1b1b (25.8%), R1a (9.7%), R1b (6.4%), G, I and I (3.2%), (3.2%), (3.2%).[331] Syrian Arabs J (58.3%),[332][333] E1b1b (12.0%), I (5.0%), R1a (10.0%) and R1b 15.0%.[331][333] Palestinian Arabs J (55.2%), E1b1b (20.3%), R1b (8.4%), I(6.3%), G (7%), R1a and T (1.4%), (1.4%).[334][335] Jordanian Arabs J (43.8%), E1b1b (26%), R1b (17.8%), G (4.1%), I (3.4%) and R1a (1.4%).[336] Iraqi Arabs J (50.6%), E1b1b (10.8%), R1b (10.8%), R1a (6.9%) and T (5.9%).[337][338] Egyptian Arabs E1b1b (36.7%) and J (32%), G (8.8%), T (8.2% R1b (4.1%), E1b1a (2.8%) and I(0.7%).[319][339] Sudanese Arabs J (47.1%), E1b1b (16.3%), R1b (15.7%) and I (3.13%).[340][341] Moroccan Arabs E1b1b (75.5%) and J1 (20.4%).[342][343] Tunisian ArabsE1b1b (49.3%), J1 (35.8%), R1b (6.8%) and E1b1a (1.4%).[344] Algerian Arabs E1b1b (54%), J1 (35%), R1b (13%).[344] Libyan Arabs E1b1b (35.88%), J (30.53%), E1b1a (8.78%), G (4.20%), R1a/R1b (3.43%) and E (1.53%).[345][346]

The mtDNA haplogroup J has been observed at notable frequencies among overall populations in the Arab world.[347] The maternal clade R0 reaches its highest frequency in the Arabian peninsula,[348] while K and T(specifically subclade T2) is more common in the Levant.[347] In the Nile Valley and Horn of Africa, haplogroups N1and M1;[348] in the Maghreb, haplogroups H1 and U6 are more significant.[349]

There are four principal West Eurasian autosomal DNA components that characterize the populations in the Arab world: the Arabian, Levantine, Coptic and Maghrebi components.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs#Genetics

Another thing, Arabs and Berbers are closely related people and where that long before the Arab conquests, expansion and Islam. As all genetic tests confirm. Let alone linguistic and cultural similarities.



Haplogroup J and E are those that dominate the Arab world and surprise, surprise, those two haplogroups are found at its highest frequencies in all as in all, Arab countries and populations.

Not only that almost everyone in the Arab world identifies as an Arab and follows Arab culture, excluding closely related fellow Semitic and Afro-Asiatic peoples, which is the most important thing, even if we assume that there was no genetic relation, which is obviously the case.

You go and tell an Libyan Arab that he is not an Arab and see the reaction, lol.

We share language, Islamic history as well as ancient pre-Islamic history, ancestry, culture, religion (s), geography, cuisine, climate and we look alike, excluding our Afro-Arab minorities.

I guess more than 99% of all other ethnic groups.

Case closed.

As for the thread starter:

Admit what? How can you hate somebody that you don't even freaking know? And Can you say that I hate arabs, when we share blood and culture... For a supposed learned individual, you are really lacking in social skills. Sometimes, you act like an imbecile..and you are showing it here...

Also that 55 year old Pashtun in the UK keeps trying to get my attention all the time due to his inferiority complexes.

In fact you should take a look at all genetic tests and realize that the Semitic-speaking Arabs of the Near East (Arabian Peninsula, Sham and Iraq) share more genetic affinity with the Turkic-speaking Turks of Turkey and the Iranic-speaking Iranians and Caucasian-speaking Caucasians than you as an Iranic-speaking Pashtun share with Iranic-speaking Iranians and the 3 others.

Can you spot the map below?



BTW the IVC is not the oldest civilization in the world. You have older civilizations in the Arab Near East let alone the earliest Neolithic communities in the world in Southern Levant, Mesopotamia and Northern Arabia. As well as the oldest continuously inhabited cities on the planet.

In fact the Arabian Peninsula is the longest inhabited area of the world by humans outside of Eastern Africa. Arabia was inhabited by humans for 10'000s of years while other areas of the world were wastelands. Home to no humans.

Also the Arab world is a huge area of the world (the size of Russia and with a population approaching 500 million) and each region has influences from its past native, almost exclusively Semitic, civilizations that has shaped its cultures along with the Arab-Islamic culture that is the dominant factor in all Arab countries. In Arabia itself you have millennia old civilizations, Semitic as well as non-Semitic, that predate the notion of Arab and any other ethnicity by millennia but that does not mean that we are not Arabs....

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Where is the data and findings? What is the source and where is the link to that 23-sentence long "article"?

The "findings" (dubious if not an outright lie) in that 23-sentence long "article" are contrary to the genetic findings in almost every genetic paper and research published on this topic so far.

Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa​

"In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that “the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century ad, … [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement” (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (ce).

In the sample of NW Africans (Bosch et al. 2001), 16 (9.1%) of the 176 Y chromosomes studied were of Eu10 (H71 on a haplogroup 9 background). Of these 16 chromosomes, 14 formed a compact microsatellite network: 7 individuals shared a single haplotype, and the haplotypes of the other 7 were one or two mutational steps removed. This low diversity may be indicative of a recent founder effect. Where did these chromosomes come from?

The highest frequency of Eu10 (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001). The most frequent Eu10 microsatellite haplotype in NW Africans is identical to a modal haplotype (DYS19-14, DYS388-17, DYS390-23, DYS391-11, DYS392-11, DYS393-12) of Moslem Arabs who live in a small area in the north of Israel, the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000). This haplotype, which is present in the Galilee at 18.5%, was termed the modal haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) (Nebel et al. 2000). Notably, it is absent from two distinct non-Arab Middle Eastern populations, Jews and Muslim Kurds, both of whom have significant Eu10 frequencies—18% and 12%, respectively (Nebel et al. 2001). Interestingly, this modal haplotype is also the most frequent haplotype (11 [∼41%] of 27 individuals) in the population from the town of Sena, in Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Its single-step neighbor is the most common haplotype of the Yemeni Hadramaut sample (5 [∼10%] of 49 chromosomes; Thomas et al. 2000). The presence of this particular modal haplotype at a significant frequency in three separate geographic locales (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen) makes independent genetic-drift events unlikely.

It should be noted that the Yemeni samples (Thomas et al. 2000) were not typed for the binary markers (p12f2 and M172) that define Eu10. However, both Yemeni modal haplotypes are present on a haplogroup background compatible with Eu10. These haplotypes carry a DYS388 allele with a high number of repeats (i.e., 17). High repeat numbers of DYS388, ⩾15, were found to occur almost exclusively on Hg9, which comprises Eu9 and Eu10. Furthermore, in a sample of a six Middle Eastern populations, chromosomes with 17 repeats are frequent (40%) in Eu10 and rare (7%) in Eu9 (Nebel et al. 2001).

The term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century bce (Eph'al 1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins (Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp. 19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190; Beeston 1995; also see Peters 1999). Migrations of southern Arabian tribes northwards have been recorded mainly since the 3d century ce. These tribes settled in various places in central and northern Arabia, as well as in the Fertile Crescent, including areas that are now part of Israel (Dussaud 1955; Ricci 1984). The emergence of Islam in the 7th century ce furthered the unification of the Arabian tribal populations. This unified Arab-Islamic community engaged in a large movement of expansion, the Fertile Crescent and Egypt being the first areas to have been conquered. It is very difficult to trace the tribal composition of the Muslim armies, but it is known that tribes of Yemeni origin formed the bulk of those Muslim contingents that conquered Egypt in the middle of the 7th century ce. Egypt was the primary base for raids further west into the Maghrib. The conquest of North Africa was difficult and took a few decades to complete (Abun-Nasr 1987). The region was militarily and administratively attached to Egypt until the beginning of the 8th century ce. Arab tribes of northern origin entered North Africa as well, both as troops and as migrants. A major wave of migration of such tribes, the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym, occurred during the 11th century ce (Abun-Nasr 1987). Thus, the Arabs, both southern (Yemeni) and northern, added to the heterogeneous Maghribi ethnic melting pot.

Little is known of the origins of the indigenous population of the Maghrib, the Berbers, except that they have always been a composite people. After the 8th century ce, a process of Arabization affected the bulk of the Berbers, while the Arab-Islamic culture and population absorbed local elements as well. Under the unifying framework of Islam, on the one hand, and as a result of the Arab settlement, on the other, a fusion took place that resulted in a new ethnocultural entity all over the Maghrib. In addition, Berber tribes sometimes claimed Arab descent in order to enhance their prestige. For example, the Berber nomadic tribe of the western Sahara, the Lamtuna, claimed descent from one of the South Arabian eponyms, Himyar. One of the chiefs of this Berber tribe, Lamtuna, is sometimes referred to as Saharawi, meaning “one of the nomads” or “one who comes from the Sahara” (Ibn al-Athir 1898, p. 462; Ibn Khallikan 1972, pp. 113, 128–129; Lewicki 1986). In Arabic sources, however, the name Saharawi is seldom used and does not seem to refer to a specific genealogical group. In light of these historical data, it is not surprising to find, among the Berbers and contemporary Saharawis of northern Africa, Y chromosomes that may have been introduced by recurrent waves of invaders from the Arabian Peninsula.

These documented historical events, together with the finding of a particular Eu10 haplotype in Yemenis, Palestinians, and NW Africans, are suggestive of a recent common origin of these chromosomes. Remarkably, the only non-Arabs in whom this haplotype has been observed to date are the Berbers (Bosch et al. 2001). It appears that the Eu10 chromosome pool in NW Africa is derived not only from early Neolithic dispersions but also from recent expansions from the Arabian peninsula.

American Society of Human Genetics"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379148/

Also I was not aware of their being an "Arab" or "North African" genome considering the fact that all haplogroups predate all living ethnic groups by millennia and given that all ethnic groups are social constructs.

Anyway this runs contrary to ground realities which show the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)

Basically across the entire Arab world (which shares a millennia long common Semitic and Afro-Asiatic history and ancestry that predates the Neolithic period and all existing ethnic groups in the Arab world) the same haplogroups are found. The only difference is their frequency but Arabs cluster with each other more than any other people on all genetic tests which is not strange given history.


Genetics

Haplogroup J and E1b1b are the most frequent Y-DNA haplogroups in the Arab world. E1b1b is the most frequent paternal clade among the populations in the western part of the Arab world (Maghreb, Nile Valley and Horn of Africa), whereas haplogroup J is the most frequent paternal clade toward the east (Arabian peninsula and Near East). Other less common haplogroups are R1a, R1b, G, I, L and T.[304][305][306][307][308][309][310][311][312][313][314][315][316]


J-M267

J-M172

E-M215

Listed here are the human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups in Arabian peninsula, Mashriq/Levant, Maghreb and Nile Valley.[317][318][319][320][321][322][323] Yemeni Arabs J(82.3%), E1b1b (12.9%) and E1b1a (3.2%).[324][325] Saudi Arabs J1 (58%), E1b1b(7.6%), E1b1a (7.6%), R1a (5.1%), T (5.1%), G (3.2%) and L (1.9%).[326][327] Emirati Arabs J (45.1%), E1b1b (11.6%), R1a (7.3%), E1b1a (5.5%), T (4.9%), R1b (4.3%) and L (3%).[324] Omani Arabs J (47.9%), E1b1b (15.7%), R1a (9.1%), T (8.3%), E1b1a (7.4%), R1b (1.7%), G (1.7%) and L (0.8%).[328] Qatari Arabs J (66.7%), R1a (6.9%), E1b1b (5.6%), E1b1a (2.8%), G (2.8%) and L (2.8%).[329][330] Lebanese Arabs J (45.2%), E1b1b (25.8%), R1a (9.7%), R1b (6.4%), G, I and I (3.2%), (3.2%), (3.2%).[331] Syrian Arabs J (58.3%),[332][333] E1b1b (12.0%), I (5.0%), R1a (10.0%) and R1b 15.0%.[331][333] Palestinian Arabs J (55.2%), E1b1b (20.3%), R1b (8.4%), I(6.3%), G (7%), R1a and T (1.4%), (1.4%).[334][335] Jordanian Arabs J (43.8%), E1b1b (26%), R1b (17.8%), G (4.1%), I (3.4%) and R1a (1.4%).[336] Iraqi Arabs J (50.6%), E1b1b (10.8%), R1b (10.8%), R1a (6.9%) and T (5.9%).[337][338] Egyptian Arabs E1b1b (36.7%) and J (32%), G (8.8%), T (8.2% R1b (4.1%), E1b1a (2.8%) and I(0.7%).[319][339] Sudanese Arabs J (47.1%), E1b1b (16.3%), R1b (15.7%) and I (3.13%).[340][341] Moroccan Arabs E1b1b (75.5%) and J1 (20.4%).[342][343] Tunisian ArabsE1b1b (49.3%), J1 (35.8%), R1b (6.8%) and E1b1a (1.4%).[344] Algerian Arabs E1b1b (54%), J1 (35%), R1b (13%).[344] Libyan Arabs E1b1b (35.88%), J (30.53%), E1b1a (8.78%), G (4.20%), R1a/R1b (3.43%) and E (1.53%).[345][346]

The mtDNA haplogroup J has been observed at notable frequencies among overall populations in the Arab world.[347] The maternal clade R0 reaches its highest frequency in the Arabian peninsula,[348] while K and T(specifically subclade T2) is more common in the Levant.[347] In the Nile Valley and Horn of Africa, haplogroups N1and M1;[348] in the Maghreb, haplogroups H1 and U6 are more significant.[349]

There are four principal West Eurasian autosomal DNA components that characterize the populations in the Arab world: the Arabian, Levantine, Coptic and Maghrebi components.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs#Genetics

Another thing, Arabs and Berbers are closely related people and where that long before the Arab conquests, expansion and Islam. As all genetic tests confirm. Let alone linguistic and cultural similarities.



Haplogroup J and E are those that dominate the Arab world and surprise, surprise, those two haplogroups are found at its highest frequencies in all as in all, Arab countries and populations.

Not only that almost everyone in the Arab world identifies as an Arab and follows Arab culture, excluding closely related fellow Semitic and Afro-Asiatic peoples, which is the most important thing, even if we assume that there was no genetic relation, which is obviously the case.

You go and tell an Libyan Arab that he is not an Arab and see the reaction, lol.

We share language, Islamic history as well as ancient pre-Islamic history, ancestry, culture, religion (s), geography, cuisine, climate and we look alike, excluding our Afro-Arab minorities.

I guess more than 99% of all other ethnic groups.

Case closed.

As for the thread starter:





Also that 55 year old Pashtun in the UK keeps trying to get my attention all the time due to his inferiority complexes.

In fact you should take a look at all genetic tests and realize that the Semitic-speaking Arabs of the Near East (Arabian Peninsula, Sham and Iraq) share more genetic affinity with the Turkic-speaking Turks of Turkey and the Iranic-speaking Iranians and Caucasian-speaking Caucasians than you as an Iranic-speaking Pashtun share with Iranic-speaking Iranians and the 3 others.

Can you spot the map below?



BTW the IVC is not the oldest civilization in the world. You have older civilizations in the Arab Near East let alone the earliest Neolithic communities in the world in Southern Levant, Mesopotamia and Northern Arabia.

Are you telling me that ancient Egyptians who might actually predates the Arabs themselves, the pharaohs, spoke Arabic??????

BTW the IVC is not the oldest civilization in the world. You have older civilizations in the Arab Near East let alone the earliest Neolithic communities in the world in Southern Levant, Mesopotamia and Northern Arabia. As well as the oldest continuously inhabited cities on the planet.

IVC is the grand daddy of all. Infact it predates the Babylon and Nile by almost 2500 years.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Languages are formed recently and are quite new they evolve every 500-1000 years. Written text goes thru tremendous change as well.

So viewing the world by language and then DNA makes no sense

DNA was intermixed , and blended over 10,000-20,000 years over and over again

I have already demonstrated how people have openly travelled in different civilization few posts above.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Are you telling me that ancient Egyptians who might actually predates the Arabs themselves, the pharaohs, spoke Arabic??????

How did you come to that conclusion based on my post? Where did I state that?

Do you realize that ancient Egyptians are fellow Afro-Asiatic peoples and that ancient Egypt was home to Semitic speaking peoples and Coptic speaking peoples (closely related peoples and languages) and that mummies of pharaohs show that they belong to the same haplogroups that are the most common in nearby Arabia and much (almost all) of the Arab world? Namely haplogroups J, E (those two especially) and R and G.

The Arab world is a huge geographic area of the world (the size of Russia and with a population approaching 500 million) and each region has influences from its past native, almost exclusively Semitic civilizations that has shaped its cultures along with the Arab-Islamic culture that is the dominant factor in all Arab countries. In Arabia itself you have millennia old civilizations, Semitic as well as non-Semitic, that predate the notion of Arab and any other ethnicity by millennia but that does not mean that we are not Arabs.

At the time of Prophet Muhammad (saws) much of Arabia did not even speak Arabic but other Semitic languages.

An Egyptian living in Eastern or Southern Egypt just across the Red Sea 4000 years ago was closely related (surprise) to the Hijazi Nabatean living next by. This is also confirmed by DNA to this very day and 1400 years + of migration, intermarriages etc. has not changed that but only strengthened the relationship.

Also the reason why Arabic became the lingua franca of the Arab world was simply because it was a fellow Semitic language that was closely related to the dominant language before Prophet Muhammad (saws) birth, which was Aramaic. So the language shift was easy. Which is also why nearby non-Semitic speaking peoples (Persians) did not adopt Arabic eventually although they adopted the alphabet (as they adopted Semitic alphabets before - which are the oldest btw in the world) and although Arabic influenced Persian vocabulary tremendously.

It's not that complicated and less so a coincidence.

As for IVC, that's simply incorrect.

Another thing there is nothing called an "Arab" or "North African" genome or haplogroup as all haplogroups predate all ethnic groups by 10.000's of millennia. Human DNA is also identical everywhere.

However what we can conclude and which all DNA research papers and tests have concluded is that the haplogroups found in the Arab World are specific to the region and a sign of a common ancestry which is no surprise.

In fact many of those haplogroups emerged in the Arab world (Arab Near East and Arabian Peninsula in particular) 30.000-50.000 years ago. Some are as old as 100.000 years.

Lastly not only is Arabia the second longest inhabited area on the planet by humans after East Africa, it is also the Urheimat (homeland) of Semites and Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples. For instance the ancestors of Sumerians, Babylonians, Akkadians, Assyrians, etc. migrated from nearby Arabia as did the first humans that inhabited the Middle East 10.000's of millennia before those people were described in history.

As for DNA (clustering) we can see that all Arabs cluster with each other by large.






And the father of them all is Proto-Sinaitic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script



whose native inhabitants are the Sinai Bedouins that have lived on Sinai since time immortal.

So this whole story of Arabs having no relationship to each other that a few non-Arabs try to parrot here due to their complexes and bias, does not correspondent to history, ground realities or actual facts (DNA) etc. Let alone logic.

However we take pride in our diversity in the Arab world and each region is fiercely proud of its own identity and that goes for all Arab countries but you can say the same about all countries with a long history. Does not change anything of what I wrote before or what is well-known among historians.

For instance a Hijazi has much more in common with an Egyptian, Shami (Levantine) and Yemeni than he has with an Southern Iranian (culturally) unlike the average Gulf Arab in Eastern Arabia that has more in common with such a person due to simple geography.

An Iranian from Ahwaz also has cultural elements in common with an Iraqi, Kuwaiti or Saudi Arabian next door, sometimes more than an Iranian living next to Afghanistan 1500 km away, but that does not mean that he is not an Iranian or that he does not share much in common with other Iranians.

We can talk about completely homogenous cultures in places such as the Arctic but not in the Middle East.

Also the thread starter is an Kabyle Berber (a minority in Algeria) and most of them have very cordial ties with Arabs so this guy is an bad apple, although he himself has even admitted that he shares blood and culture with Arabs, as I quoted his very own post. He is making such nonsense threads (based on false information, dubious source and no link) to annoy some of the Arab users here (Saudi Arabians, Egyptians, Tunisians, Iraqis etc.) that he has had beefs with in the past. He is especially obsessed about me.

Anyway I provided the ground realities so there is nothing more to worry about.

BTW speaking about Algeria (for the Arabic speakers) and Algerians:

Alliens in action that somehow got teleported to Algeria and all of Northern Africa to the extent that the region has mixed with Arabs and become almost exclusively Arabic-speaking, LOL. 90% of all North Africans consider themsleves Arabs and identity as Arabs. Most can even trace their Arab ancestry. No, they are not "pure Arabs", nobody is, but mostly Arab-Berber mixtures but the point remains the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Berber

If you called them "wannabe Arabs" they would shot you on spot, LOL.

Oh, this fellow Hijazi Hashemite (Algeria's national hero) was also an alien:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emir_Abdelkader

"Abdelkader was born near the town of Mascara in 1808,[5] to a family of religious aristocracy. His father, Muhieddine (or "Muhyi al-Din") al-Hasani, was a muqaddam in a religious institution affiliated with the Qadiriyya Sufi order of Islam[2] and claimed descendance from Muhammad, through the Idrisids.[6] Abdelkader was thus a sharif, and entitled to add the honorary patronymic al-Hasani ("descendant of al-Hasan") to his name.[2]"

Abdelkader ibn Muhieddine al-Hasani.







etc. etc.

@Khafee @The SC

 

[Taimoor Khan]

How did you come to that conclusion based on my post? Where did I state that?

Do you realize that ancient Egyptians are fellow Afro-Asiatic peoples and that ancient Egypt was home to Semitic speaking peoples and Coptic speaking peoples (closely related peoples and languages) and that mummies of pharaohs show that they belong to the same haplogroups that are the most common in nearby Arabia and much (almost all) of the Arab world? Namely haplogroups J, E (those two especially) and R and G.

The Arab world is a huge geographic area of the world (the size of Russia and with a population approaching 500 million) and each region has influences from its past native, almost exclusively Semitic civilizations that has shaped its cultures along with the Arab-Islamic culture that is the dominant factor in all Arab countries. In Arabia itself you have millennia old civilizations, Semitic as well as non-Semitic, that predate the notion of Arab and any other ethnicity by millennia but that does not mean that we are not Arabs.

At the time of Prophet Muhammad (saws) much of Arabia did not even speak Arabic but other Semitic languages.

An Egyptian living in Eastern or Southern Egypt just across the Red Sea 4000 years ago was closely related (surprise) to the Hijazi Nabatean living next by. This is also confirmed by DNA to this very day and 1400 years + of migration, intermarriages etc. has not changed that but only strengthened the relationship.

Also the reason why Arabic became the lingua franca of the Arab world was simply because it was a fellow Semitic language that was closely related to the dominant language before Prophet Muhammad (saws) birth, which was Aramaic. So the language shift was easy. Which is also why nearby non-Semitic speaking peoples (Persians) did not adopt Arabic eventually although they adopted the alphabet (as they adopted Semitic alphabets before - which are the oldest btw in the world) and although Arabic influenced Persian vocabulary tremendously.

It's not that complicated and less so a coincidence.

As for IVC, that's simply incorrect.

Another thing there is nothing called an "Arab" or "North African" genome or haplogroup as all haplogroups predate all ethnic groups by 10.000's of millennia. Human DNA is also identical everywhere.

However what we can conclude and which all DNA research papers and tests have concluded is that the haplogroups found in the Arab World are specific to the region and a sign of a common ancestry which is no surprise.

In fact many of those haplogroups emerged in the Arab world (Arab Near East and Arabian Peninsula in particular) 30.000-50.000 years ago. Some are as old as 100.000 years.

Lastly not only is Arabia the second longest inhabited area on the planet by humans after East Africa, it is also the Urheimat (homeland) of Semites and Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples. For instance the ancestors of Sumerians, Babylonians, Akkadians, Assyrians, etc. migrated from nearby Arabia as did the first humans that inhabited the Middle East 10.000's of millennia before those people were described in history.

As for DNA (clustering) we can see that all Arabs cluster with each other by large.






And the father of them all is Proto-Sinaitic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script



whose native inhabitants are the Sinai Bedouins that have lived on Sinai since time immortal.

No need to get over excited sunshine, use of emoji are sign of immaturity. However healthy debate is welcomed.

keep the DNA BS aside, lets talk about the real facts here and also from Islamic point of view.

On the Arabian peninsula itself, there are two types of Arabs, one , the original Arabs from Yemen side who are classed to be the most ancient of all, and the other group from Hijaz side who are from the family tree of Prophet Ibraheem (AS) and his lineage down Ismaeel (AS), who by the way wasnt Arab himself. Its is the second group from where the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) came. So geographically speaking, the "original Arabs" are actually further down south towards Yemen in Arabian peninsula, so what to make of other nations like Egyptians, is anyone guess really.


Do you believe the Noah (AS) is the second progenitor of humanity After Adam (AS) due to the great deluge? Do you believe in Quran? Because what I am going to write now, read it carefully

Your one liner about IVC not the world most ancient civilization is utter BS I am afraid. All facts, excavations, carbon dating, artifacts, put IVC at top of the food chain of human civilization. It not only predates Babylon and Egypt, two other "recognized" human civilizations, but it was three times bigger then both of the other two "combined". Below is the world first "recognized" human city, by the archaeologist, not some keyboard warriors, a part of Indus civilization, long before babylon and Egypt, what to say about Arabs!

This is what Allah mentioned in Quran about Bani Isreal


17:3

O descendants of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.


So if we locate, or let me rephrase we can infer through logical conclusions as to where the Noah was from, this will kill all the debate about which land is actually the womb of humanity, all races actually.

There is one very interesting fact about IVC. All major cities found were buried ten feet underground. A typical sign of tsunami/floods.

There is this chap which I think you might be fimilar with called Aristotle. He traced back the origin of Hebrews, back to Indus , and according to him these lot were tribe of Indus, dislodged from their original lands by great deluge. Read this with Quran (17:3) (above), it will all make sense, Insha Allah. And if you really think deep about this particular Quran Surah, the propet Ibraheem (AS) himself who is the father of Hijazi Arabs and also of Bani Israel, his own origin , is actually in Indus. Even the birth place of Ibrhaeem (AS) is now considered to be somewhere in north west Pakistan, in the land of Pakhtoons (the ten tribes of Isreal), before he was ejected from these lands towards what is now middle east by the tyrant Nimrod. Jamrood in KPK province of Pakistan is the place, to be precise.

Even in Hinduism, who are also offshoot of IVC, there is this personality called Ma-Nu. You can research on your own leisure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shraddhadeva_Manu

Nazi German, vicious kind maybe, but they were not fools infact very intelligent lot. They traced back their beginning down to the Indus plains.

If you speak to any Muslim scholar, the maximum time of human history, they will give you max 7000 years from Adam down to current humanity. some might extend to 10000 years at max. Unless you believe we came from Monkeys that is. Within this time frame, there is NO other civilization which fits the bill other then IVC, and its people, which can be classed as the nation of Noah.

There is a clear evolution or transfer of Human civilization going from IVC down to Babylon and to Egypt. East to west. Archaeology supports that, but if some random people want to keep their head burred in their arses due to nationalism and race, it wont change the facts on ground really.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

No need to get over excited sunshine, use of emoji are sign of immaturity. However healthy debate is welcomed.

keep the DNA BS aside, lets talk about the real facts here and also from Islamic point of view.

On the Arabian peninsula itself, there are two types of Arabs, one , the original Arabs from Yemen side who are classed to be the most ancient of all, and the other group from Hijaz side who are from the family tree of Prophet Ibraheem (AS) and his lineage down Ismaeel (AS), who by the way wasnt Arab himself. Its is the second group from where the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) came. So geographically speaking, the "original Arabs" are actually further down south towards Yemen in Arabian peninsula, so what to make of other nations like Egyptians, is anyone guess really.


Do you believe the Noah (AS) is the second progenitor of humanity After Adam (AS) due to the great deluge? Do you believe in Quran? Because what I am going to write now, read it carefully

Your one liner about IVC not the world most ancient civilization is utter BS I am afraid. All facts, excavations, carbon dating, artifacts, put IVC at top of the food chain of human civilization. It not only predates Babylon and Egypt, two other "recognized" human civilizations, but it was three times bigger then both of the other two "combined". Below is the world first "recognized" human city, by the archaeologist, not some keyboard warriors, a part of Indus civilization, long before babylon and Egypt, what to say about Arabs!

This is what Allah mentioned in Quran about Bani Isreal


17:3

O descendants of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.


So if we locate, or let me rephrase we can infer through logical conclusions as to where the Noah was from, this will kill all the debate about which land is actually the womb of humanity, all races actually.

There is one very interesting fact about IVC. All major cities found were buried ten feet underground. A typical sign of tsunami/floods.

There is this chap which I think you might be fimilar with called Aristotle. He traced back the origin of Hebrews, back to Indus , and according to him these lot were tribe of Indus, dislodged from their original lands by great deluge. Read this with Quran (17:3) (above), it will all make sense, Insha Allah. And if you really think deep about this particular Quran Surah, the propet Ibraheem (AS) himself who is the father of Hijazi Arabs and also of Bani Israel, his own origin , is actually in Indus. Even the birth place of Ibrhaeem (AS) is now considered to be somewhere in north west Pakistan, in the land of Pakhtoons (the ten tribes of Isreal), before he was ejected from these lands towards what is now middle east by the tyrant Nimrod. Jamrood in KPK province of Pakistan is the place, to be precise.

Even in Hinduism, who are also offshoot of IVC, there is this personality called Ma-Nu. You can research on your own leisure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shraddhadeva_Manu

Nazi German, vicious kind maybe, but they were not fools infact very intelligent lot. They traced back their beginning down to the Indus plains.

If you speak to any Muslim scholar, the maximum time of human history, they will give you max 7000 years from Adam down to current humanity. some might extend to 10000 years at max. Unless you believe we came from Monkeys that is. Within this time frame, there is NO other civilization which fits the bill other then IVC, and its people, which can be classed as the nation of Noah.

There is a clear evolution or transfer of Human civilization going from IVC down to Babylon and to Egypt. East to west. Archaeology supports that, but if some random people want to keep their head burred in their arses due to nationalism and race, it wont change the facts on ground really.

Yes, in fact Pakistan was inhabited by humans before the Arab world was. That should be one of your other genius theories. Humans somehow teleported themselves straight to Pakistan from East Africa without crossing any land or settling beforehand.

No, I have no idea about the Qur'an. You should teach me it. In Classical Arabic. As well as the history of Arabs and our lands. In Classical Arabic as well.

The subjects that I have discussed are out of your reach with all due respect. Better not participate in such discussions. You don't see me discussing the history of Punjabi tribes for instance.

Anyway let's say that you are completely right. I wrote what I wanted to wrote. As for the rest, I do not care. I stick to facts.

EDIT: Nutcase detected. Further discussion pointless.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Yes, in fact Pakistan was inhabited by humans before the Arab world was. That should be one of your other genius theories. Humans somehow teleported themselves straight to Pakistan from East Africa without crossing any land or settling beforehand.

No, I have no idea about the Qur'an. You should teach me it. In Classical Arabic. As well as the history of Arabs and our lands. In Classical Arabic as well.

The subjects that I have discussed are out of your reach with all due respect. Better not participate in such discussions. You don't see me discussing the history of Punjabi tribes for instance.

Huni, I have given you a proper logical evolution of human civilization in a summerised way. Your bullshIt is very amusing though. And what are you on about east Africa? That theory is utter bullshit that humans came from Africa or any part of it, this non sense was created to support the Darwin theory of Human evolution that we all came from monkies and because African are black people, hence there is where the human evolution happen. Thats why I said, unless you believe that your ancestors were monkeys, feel free buy that non sense.

The problem with the tin pot so called intellects like yourself that they are too much indoctrinated in their racial and nationalism non sense. I know, its hard to face the facts.

As I said, the keyboard warriors cant change the reality. and that is where the archaeologist come into when we dig into ancient history. When the world most ancient city is in Pakistan, part of IVC, proved by non other the archaeology, you are really pushing your luck sunshine with Arabs some sort of race from time immortal. NOT.

Every race, got its beginning here in the plains of Indus river. Rest is irrelevant. PERIOD.

 

[Anaoshak]

Not really a shocker.
Most Arabs don't have majority Arab genetics just as most Turks don't have majority Turkic genetics. No offence to anyone but that's just the truth. Most Arabs are Arabized peoples.

Also, want to point out that there are some really misinformative information on here from people trying to claim that Arabs are all Haplogroup J, but don't point out that they are Haplogroup J1, and that there are more than one branch under Haplogroup J, for example,

• Haplogroup J1 (M267) is associated with Northeast Caucasian peoples in Dagestan and Semitic peoples in the Middle East.
• Haplogroup J2 (M172) is found mainly in Anatolia, Greece, the Balkans, Italy, Iran, South/Central Asia and the Caucasus.

@Taimoor Khan @Ceylal What Saif Al Arab posted basically confirms the study that you posted as his map of Haplogroup J1 (M267) which is the "Arab gene/Semitic gene", shows similar figures. So I'm not sure why he is discrediting the post. But he is a troll, hence the 5-6 accounts he has on here.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Not really a shocker.
Most Arabs don't have majority Arab genetics just as most Turks don't have majority Turkic genetics. No offence to anyone but that's just the truth. Most Arabs are Arabized peoples.

Also, want to point out that there are some really misinformative information on here from people trying to claim that Arabs are all Haplogroup J, but don't point out that they are Haplogroup J1, and that there are more than one branch under Haplogroup J, for example,

• Haplogroup J1 (M267) is associated with Northeast Caucasian peoples in Dagestan and Semitic peoples in the Middle East.
• Haplogroup J2 (M172) is found mainly in Anatolia, Greece, the Balkans, Italy, Iran, South/Central Asia and the Caucasus.

@Taimoor Khan @Ceylal What Saif Al Arab posted basically confirms the study that you posted as his map of Haplogroup J1 (M267) which is the "Arab gene/Semitic gene", shows similar figures. So I'm not sure why he is discrediting the post. But he is a troll, hence the 5-6 accounts he has on here.

None of what I have written is trolling. In fact it is pure facts that you as an Iranian obviously have a hard time accepting let alone being able to counter. Moreover there is nothing called an "Arab" haplogroup or genome. All haplogroups predate the notion of ethnic groups by millennia but all Arabs cluster with each other and belong to the same haplogroups. A totally different thing.



J1 and J2 are basically the same haplogroup as they both descend from haplogroup J. Try again.

Anyway everything was explained in post 35.

My posts were thanked by an moderator here and fellow Arabs (Egyptians).

What is funny is the fact that supposed Iranic peoples (who do not share a single language let alone a single culture) cluster much less with each other than Arabs do which is not really strange when geography and history is taken into context. In fact you are similar to Turkish speaking peoples in this regard. No common language or culture and vastly different genetics.

Moreover Iran is basically the most mixed country genetically in the entire Middle East which means that talking about an homogenous nationality let alone all the ethnic groups found in Iran, as being homogenous, is the biggest fallacy.

Anyway you have no idea about the history of the Arab world let alone the genetic history of the Arab world nor does it concern you the slighest as an supposed Iranian refugee living in Sweden.

So focus on being the most genetically diverse country in the Middle East (not that strange given history and the fact that you have been conquered by almost everyone) and your wet Pan-Iranian dreams that do not even exist on paper unlike the Arab world.

Oh, and now I have had some Pakistani living in the UK tell me who is an Arab or not (Hijazis are apparently not real Arabs) and now we have an Iranian refugee telling us what we are. Hilarious. Meanwhile in the real world none of this matters as people know their history and identify as Arabs with all what that means. Some blabbering on a Pakistani forum is not going to change that even a tiny bit.

So you can write a long nonsense post. I have already provided proof in the form of history, genetic tests and common logic to disprove the nonsense.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Yes, in fact Pakistan was inhabited by humans before the Arab world was. That should be one of your other genius theories. Humans somehow teleported themselves straight to Pakistan from East Africa without crossing any land or settling beforehand.

No, I have no idea about the Qur'an. You should teach me it. In Classical Arabic. As well as the history of Arabs and our lands. In Classical Arabic as well.

The subjects that I have discussed are out of your reach with all due respect. Better not participate in such discussions. You don't see me discussing the history of Punjabi tribes for instance.

Anyway let's say that you are completely right. I wrote what I wanted to wrote. As for the rest, I do not care. I stick to facts.

EDIT: Nutcase detected. Further discussion pointless.

According to the data we currently have available, the first humans originated in East Africa, and the first human civilization was in Mesopotamia (in the Iraq/Syria region). Mesopotamia was dominated by the Sumerians and the Akkaidians.

Apparently it was the Akkadian immigrants who crossed Central Asia and eventually formed the Chinese civilization in the East.

Given that ancient humans mostly followed conventional methods of transportation, this theory does make the most sense.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

No need to get over excited sunshine, use of emoji are sign of immaturity. However healthy debate is welcomed.

keep the DNA BS aside, lets talk about the real facts here and also from Islamic point of view.

On the Arabian peninsula itself, there are two types of Arabs, one , the original Arabs from Yemen side who are classed to be the most ancient of all, and the other group from Hijaz side who are from the family tree of Prophet Ibraheem (AS) and his lineage down Ismaeel (AS), who by the way wasnt Arab himself. Its is the second group from where the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) came. So geographically speaking, the "original Arabs" are actually further down south towards Yemen in Arabian peninsula, so what to make of other nations like Egyptians, is anyone guess really.


Do you believe the Noah (AS) is the second progenitor of humanity After Adam (AS) due to the great deluge? Do you believe in Quran? Because what I am going to write now, read it carefully

Your one liner about IVC not the world most ancient civilization is utter BS I am afraid. All facts, excavations, carbon dating, artifacts, put IVC at top of the food chain of human civilization. It not only predates Babylon and Egypt, two other "recognized" human civilizations, but it was three times bigger then both of the other two "combined". Below is the world first "recognized" human city, by the archaeologist, not some keyboard warriors, a part of Indus civilization, long before babylon and Egypt, what to say about Arabs!

This is what Allah mentioned in Quran about Bani Isreal


17:3

O descendants of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.


So if we locate, or let me rephrase we can infer through logical conclusions as to where the Noah was from, this will kill all the debate about which land is actually the womb of humanity, all races actually.

There is one very interesting fact about IVC. All major cities found were buried ten feet underground. A typical sign of tsunami/floods.

There is this chap which I think you might be fimilar with called Aristotle. He traced back the origin of Hebrews, back to Indus , and according to him these lot were tribe of Indus, dislodged from their original lands by great deluge. Read this with Quran (17:3) (above), it will all make sense, Insha Allah. And if you really think deep about this particular Quran Surah, the propet Ibraheem (AS) himself who is the father of Hijazi Arabs and also of Bani Israel, his own origin , is actually in Indus. Even the birth place of Ibrhaeem (AS) is now considered to be somewhere in north west Pakistan, in the land of Pakhtoons (the ten tribes of Isreal), before he was ejected from these lands towards what is now middle east by the tyrant Nimrod. Jamrood in KPK province of Pakistan is the place, to be precise.

Even in Hinduism, who are also offshoot of IVC, there is this personality called Ma-Nu. You can research on your own leisure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shraddhadeva_Manu

Nazi German, vicious kind maybe, but they were not fools infact very intelligent lot. They traced back their beginning down to the Indus plains.

If you speak to any Muslim scholar, the maximum time of human history, they will give you max 7000 years from Adam down to current humanity. some might extend to 10000 years at max. Unless you believe we came from Monkeys that is. Within this time frame, there is NO other civilization which fits the bill other then IVC, and its people, which can be classed as the nation of Noah.

There is a clear evolution or transfer of Human civilization going from IVC down to Babylon and to Egypt. East to west. Archaeology supports that, but if some random people want to keep their head burred in their arses due to nationalism and race, it wont change the facts on ground really.

That makes no sense. Look at Egypt's history.


Egypt's Oldest Known Art Identified, Is 15,000 Years Old
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070711-egypt-artwork.html

The engravings—estimated to be about 15,000 years old—were chiseled into several sandstone cliff faces at the village of Qurta, about 400 miles (640 kilometers) south of Cairo (Egypt map).

Of the more than 160 figures found so far, most depict wild bulls. The biggest is nearly six feet (two meters) wide.

The drawings "push Egyptian art, religion, and culture back to a much earlier time," Ikram said.

The team's findings will be published in the September issue of the British quarterly journal Antiquity.


The Nile has been the lifeline of its region for much of human history.[9] The fertile floodplain of the Nile gave humans the opportunity to develop a settled agricultural economy and a more sophisticated, centralized society that became a cornerstone in the history of human civilization.[10]Nomadic modern human hunter-gatherers began living in the Nile valley through the end of the Middle Pleistocene some 120,000 years ago. By the late Paleolithic period, the arid climate of Northern Africa became increasingly hot and dry, forcing the populations of the area to concentrate along the river region.

Hate to break it to you man but us Egyptians have been around a lot longer.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

That makes no sense. Look at Egypt's history.


Egypt's Oldest Known Art Identified, Is 15,000 Years Old
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070711-egypt-artwork.html

The engravings—estimated to be about 15,000 years old—were chiseled into several sandstone cliff faces at the village of Qurta, about 400 miles (640 kilometers) south of Cairo (Egypt map).

Of the more than 160 figures found so far, most depict wild bulls. The biggest is nearly six feet (two meters) wide.

The drawings "push Egyptian art, religion, and culture back to a much earlier time," Ikram said.

The team's findings will be published in the September issue of the British quarterly journal Antiquity.


The Nile has been the lifeline of its region for much of human history.[9] The fertile floodplain of the Nile gave humans the opportunity to develop a settled agricultural economy and a more sophisticated, centralized society that became a cornerstone in the history of human civilization.[10]Nomadic modern human hunter-gatherers began living in the Nile valley through the end of the Middle Pleistocene some 120,000 years ago. By the late Paleolithic period, the arid climate of Northern Africa became increasingly hot and dry, forcing the populations of the area to concentrate along the river region.

Hate to break it to you man but us Egyptians have been around a lot longer.

Let alone the Arabian Peninsula next door bro, which has scientifically (proven) to be the second oldest inhabited place on earth. Speaking about genetics and haplogroups, many of the haplgroups discussed originate on the Arabian Peninsula or descend from haplogroups that do.

In fact you can find almost 95% of all the world's haplogroups indigenously in Arabia. Haplogroups that are found as far as Oceania and East Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula#Y-Chromosome

IVC is definitely an old civilization but most of what the guy wrote is utter nonsense. A historian would not take it seriously.

According to the data we currently have available, the first humans originated in East Africa, and the first human civilization was in Mesopotamia (in the Iraq/Syria region). Mesopotamia was dominated by the Sumerians and the Akkaidians.

Apparently it was the Akkadian immigrants who crossed Central Asia and eventually formed the Chinese civilization in the East.

Given that ancient humans mostly followed conventional methods of transportation, this theory does make the most sense.

Akkadians migrated from neighboring Northern Arabia/Southern Levant into Iraq while the Sumerians are believed (one of the strongest theories at least) to have originated form nearby Eastern Arabia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

The Marsh Arabs who have many cultural similarities to Sumerians and live in their historical heartland where found to have the highest J1 frequencies in the world along with isolated Caucasian peoples in Dagestan and Caucasus.

This recent DNA report might interest you.

"In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq"

http://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-288



Also the Afro-Asiatic language group is the oldest in the world.

And where did they find the oldest human skeleton? In Ethiopia of all places.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Let alone the Arabian Peninsula next door bro, which has scientifically (proven) to be the second oldest inhabited place on earth. Speaking about genetics and haplogroups, many of the haplgroups discussed originate on the Arabian Peninsula or descend from haplogroups that do.

In fact you can find almost 95% of all the world's haplogroups indigenously in Arabia. Haplogroups that are found as far as Oceania and East Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula#Y-Chromosome

IVC is definitely an old civilization but most of what the guy wrote is utter nonsense. A historian would not take it seriously.

You guys were even luckier then us, Not even Alexander the great or all his wannabes conquered you. Now you get to reap the benefits while Britain,and Europeans go about showing off all our Artifacts as their artifacts because of Colonization.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Akkadians migrated from neighboring Arabia into Iraq while the Sumerians are believed (one of the strongest theories at least) to have originated form nearby Eastern Arabia.

The Marsh Arabs who have many cultural similarities to Sumerians and live in their historical heartland where found to have the highest J1 frequencies in the world along with isolated Caucasian peoples in Dagestan and Caucasus.

This recent DNA report might interest you.

"In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq"

http://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-288



Also the Afro-ASiatic language group is the oldest in the world.

And where did they find the oldest human skeleton? In Ethiopia of all places.

It does make sense.

Even if one were to disregard all the evidence/data, just looking at a map would solve the problem. Ancient humans after all, did not have large boats or airplanes to travel across the world. The cradle of human civilization lies in the Middle East.