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The lasting lesson of 1962

Bull **** ! World sanctions have to be passed by Security council ... Do i need to remind you that China is a permanent member with Veto power ? :azn: ... So there wont be any civil war in India after the war if India's destroyed ? As one member pointed out earlier the biggest problem of Indians is that " they keep underestimating others while at the same time overestimating them " ... Proven true by the comments in this thread ...

What is " Chinese untested products theory " ? How are you so sure of their quality ? Just because China sells cheap products to India and rest of the world doesn't mean that the same applies to their defense products as well ... Care to elaborate the logic behind it ? Is SU 30 MKI combat proven ? :lol: ... How many kills it has made in its operational history then ? ... Does it make it a useless fighter if it isn't ?
Chinese are renowned for reverse engineering, no doubt they have done so with Russian quality products.Due to their this vice they don't have access to more sophisticated western weapon systems,this would tremendously hamper their defence preparedness.
They have edge in quantity over India but we have quality.So Chinese equipments are said to be cheaper in that way.
Our SU 30 MKI has been equipped by various third party product of western countries to meet our requirements so this makes it better fighter than Su-30 MKK.

Any lad interested in history may tell you that quality (technologically advanced ) has always won over quantity in all previous battles.
 
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Look at the whole picture

I just spent 30 minutes explaining China's economy. I've copied my post into this thread to help others better understand China's economy.



I am indeed a Taiwanese-American of Chinese ethnicity. I thought everyone knew that.

Anyway, your points about China may be true. However, you neglected to mention something very important: China's strengths. You cannot look at a minor fault and claim China's economy is falling apart. You must look at the whole picture. After I demolish your arguments, I will itemize China's formidable strengths.

1. I have no idea what you are talking about regarding China's export sector. China's exports are higher than ever. What's wrong with a 13.8% export growth in November (see below) when you are already the world's largest exporter?

Since China's export base is the world's largest, 13.8% additional growth beyond that base will yield a huge absolute number. China's exports are somewhere around $1.5 trillion (see Table 4: https://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html). 13.8% of $1.5 trillion will yield an annual growth of $207 billion. Seems like a healthy economy to me.

China export and import growth slows, surplus narrows | Reuters

"China export and import growth slows, surplus narrows
By Langi Chiang and Nick Edwards
BEIJING | Fri Dec 9, 2011 11:10pm EST

(Reuters) - Growth in Chinese exports and imports slowed in November, further evidence of the faltering demand abroad and at home that is pushing Beijing towards a more explicit pro-growth policy.

Customs data on Saturday showed exports expanded 13.8 percent year on year in November, the lowest in nine months, but it was the most sluggish performance since November 2009 when the traditionally volatile month of February is stripped out.
...
The surplus turned out to be $14.5 billion, narrowing from October's $17.0 billion and the same level as in September."

2. Let's pretend that China is a company. When a company is making an average of $15 billion in profits every single month (see blue highlight above), that is a healthy company. Therefore, it is obvious that the Chinese economy is very healthy.

3. The Hang Seng is probably performing poorly because of the economic problems in the U.S. and Europe, which affects Chinese exporters. Also, the Chinese government popped the real estate bubble early; which is good for China's economy, but not for stock market investors.

In other words, I fail to see why you think the Hang Seng affects China's real economy of manufacturers. The stock market goes up and it comes down. Who cares? I only care about China's economic fundamentals (e.g. export growth, trade surplus, etc.).

4. China Railways wants more money. What's the problem? You can't build railroads for free. Massive infrastructure projects (like dams, railroads, or airports) require a huge upfront cost. China Railways is asking for more money because China is building a nationwide high-speed rail network that is supposed to be completed by 2020.

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Now, let's look at China's strengths.

1. China has $3.2 trillion in foreign exchange reserves. In other words, China has plenty of money to pay its bills for the next few decades. The story gets even better. China has invested its $3.2 trillion and it earns interest or invested returns.

2. China has been consistently profitable for the past decade (and longer). China earns roughly $200 billion in its annual current account balance (e.g. total trade in goods and services). In other words, $200 billion dollars in net profits is being injected into the Chinese economy every year. This is part of the reason that China's economy has boomed at 10% for thirty years.

The trade surpluses are still happening every month. The Chinese economic party will continue unabated. It might slow a bit to 8%, but that's because China's economy is now a monster $7 trillion. It's hard to grow at 10% when your economy is that large.

3. China's economy continues to increase in productivity. Alternatively, you can say that China's economy keeps becoming more efficient. How does China do that? Well, it's actually pretty simple. China produces and consumes hundreds of thousands of new CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled) machine tools each year. Of course Chinese factories become more productive with an annual massive influx of advanced CNC machine tools.

4. When China builds railways, it frees up the old rail network for exclusive use to ship freight. The freight rail network no longer encounters bottlenecks and it requires a lot less fuel to ship by rail than by trucks. Once again, China's economy becomes more efficient.

5. China has invested a lot of money into research and development. Improvement in Chinese technology has led to massive increases in production. For example, Chinese super-rice hybrid technology has led to a quadruple or quintuple increase in rice production (for the same hectare) in the last four decades. China's economy keeps booming because of technological advancement.

I could keep going on and on about the returns on China's investment in education, trade, licensing, joint ventures, shift into production of higher-value products (e.g. ARJ-21 regional jet planes, upcoming COMAC C919 mid-size jetliners, and building satellites for foreign customers), building more-efficient coal plants with 41% efficiency and shutting down less-efficient old ones with 25% efficiency, etc.

I've already spent 30 minutes answering his post and I would rather not spend another hour beating the issue to death. China probably has the strongest economy in the world right now. It is just silly to claim that China is facing serious economic problems.

The Chinese currency keeps appreciating relentlessly. That should tell you China's economy is growing stronger, not weaker.

SmiB3.png

China's Yuan has appreciated over 30% during the last six years from 8.27 yuans to 6.31 yuans per U.S. dollar (see CNY, Chinese Yuan Exchange Rates Table - x-rates).
If the economy is good then there is no reason for a war. The only other reason is expanding china hardly has any fertile land left. To get to fertile land in india chinese will have significant trouble as they wont be able to justify it to world in any way. Wars for land also does not hold water because moment countries start war world will intervene and push you back to where you started. They wont spend a coin without seeing 100 in return. They will sell you stuff but has never fought a war for you. For China, there is no political or economical reason to fight a war with india. If the econmy tanks they will need a diversion and so they will come and then history will repeat with a war of no gains.
 
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Chinese are renowned for reverse engineering, no doubt they have done so with Russian quality products.Due to their this vice they don't have access to more sophisticated western weapon systems,this would tremendously hamper their defence preparedness.
They have edge in quantity over India but we have quality.So Chinese equipments are said to be cheaper in that way.
Our SU 30 MKI has been equipped by various third party product of western countries to meet our requirements so this makes it better fighter than Su-30 MKK.

Any lad interested in history may tell you that quality (technologically advanced ) has always won over quantity in all previous battles.

Yes they are , and every single nation which at this moment is a major defense hardware seller has done so at some point of its history ... No doubt you use the same Russian equipment which Chinese get near TOT for ... Right ? So how can you prove that Chinese products aren't good as the products they were derived/reverse engineered from ? :azn:

Ok , but the Chinese avionics technology is nearing the quality of Western hardware ( PAF has stated the KLJ 7 is almost on par with AN/APG 68 and exceeds it in some areas ... ) ... Is the various third party advantage neutralized then ? Remember the J10 B ? Its produced in China , not imported ... Can the same be said for you considering the speed of your defense deals ? I dont think so ...

Lads interested in history aren't really talking sense here ... Is it really the " always " thing you mentioned just now ?
 
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Yes they are , and every single nation which at this moment is a major defense hardware seller has done so at some point of its history ... No doubt you use the same Russian equipment which Chinese get near TOT for ... Right ? So how can you prove that Chinese products aren't good as the products they were derived/reverse engineered from ? :azn:
None of the major defence equipment exporter were involved in reverse engg of original military hardware at any time.Be it USA,Russia,Israel,French.If you have credible source then I would be pleased to know.
I was not referring only to Russian product.

Ok , but the Chinese avionics technology is nearing the quality of Western hardware ( PAF has stated the KLJ 7 is almost on par with AN/APG 68 and exceeds it in some areas ... ) ... Is the various third party advantage neutralized then ? Remember the J10 B ? Its produced in China , not imported ...
China won't catch up with western avionics in this decade.Let alone exceeding it.

Lads interested in history aren't really talking sense here ... Is it really the " always " thing you mentioned just now ?
By lads I meant it is of common sense to any person who have bit of knowledge of war history.
Do you have problem with ALWAYS ??
Then prove me wrong.
 
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Answers in Blue & Opinions in Red

Please sign the MMRCA first before talking about it , its been more than 6 years now ...

What makes you think that any one of South East Asian will attack China for India ? :rofl: ... Chinese conventional fire power delivered by ballistic missiles is enough to flatten Hanoi or Manile in a matter of hours ... PLAAF doesn't even have to be involved in the war against tiny neighbors ... What will they fight China with ?
Because there was wars with all these tiny nations in the past and continued to threaten by China...

Bull **** ! World sanctions have to be passed by Security council ... Do i need to remind you that China is a permanent member with Veto power ? :azn: ... So there wont be any civil war in India after the war if India's destroyed ? As one member pointed out earlier the biggest problem of Indians is that " they keep underestimating others while at the same time overestimating them " ... Proven true by the comments in this thread ...

Hey UN is formed in late 40's and India is a potential contender for permanent seat and the list is subject to change..So Cool down. Dont worry your country have had enough vetoes in the past for your export of terrorism.


What is " Chinese untested products theory " ? How are you so sure of their quality ? Just because China sells cheap products to India and rest of the world doesn't mean that the same applies to their defense products as well ... Care to elaborate the logic behind it ? Is SU 30 MKI combat proven ? :lol: ... How many kills it has made in its operational history then ? ... Does it make it a useless fighter if it isn't ?

Yes its untested and also reverse engineered. The govt mechanism is known for not revealing its shortfalls unlike in India. If there is any product developmental lifecycle article for J-10B. then i will go through it to give my feedback.Otherwise how do you know they worked on every area where issues are. Will they be discussing their shortfall after every test. If formidable forces like USAF/Russian Air force appreciates then i will follow... Start googling you will get reverse engineered stories and stolen technologies by China.

Last but not the least... Please stop being a mouth piece for Chinese. History suggests that you guys were once American mouthpiece and now against it. Firstly ask US to stop drone attacks completely and forever. Your govt knows about its complications though You either not aware of anything or you so pretend that you know everything.
 
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None of the major defence equipment exporter were involved in reverse engg of original military hardware at any time.Be it USA,Russia,Israel,French.If you have credible source then I would be pleased to know.
I was not referring only to Russian product.
China won't catch up with western avionics in this decade.Let alone exceeding it.

Ok then just to give you a rough idea , start from V2 , moving from Tupolev TU 4 , K 13 , BAT ...
 
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The lasting lesson of 1962:

Not lasting enough though...

China should now graciously spare the courtesy by extending the legendary "1962 Vintage Guarantee" for another 50 years or for good. :tup:
 
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The lasting lesson of 1962:

Not lasting enough though...

China should now graciously spare the courtesy by extending the legendary "1962 Vintage Guarantee" for another 50 years or for good. :tup:

Any thoughts about Indian 1971 Vintage Guarantee which was less than a decade after 1962.

---------- Post added at 07:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------

Somebody pointed on this thread a new term for tibet, they call arunachal pradesh as south tibet,

so we should call tibet as north arunchal pradesh, its good reply.

OR like pakistan, we could arunachal pradesh as azad tibet and the other tibet as china occupied tibet.

Nothing like Azad Tibet yaar, people of Arunachal Pradesh call themselves Indian, just people of Sikkim.
 
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Answers in Blue & Opinions in Red


Because there was wars with all these tiny nations in the past and continued to threaten by China...

Hey UN is formed in late 40's and India is a potential contender for permanent seat and the list is subject to change..So Cool down. Dont worry your country have had enough vetoes in the past for your export of terrorism.


Yes its untested and also reverse engineered. The govt mechanism is known for not revealing its shortfalls unlike in India. If there is any product developmental lifecycle article for J-10B. then i will go through it to give my feedback.Otherwise how do you know they worked on every area where issues are. Will they be discussing their shortfall after every test. If formidable forces like USAF/Russian Air force appreciates then i will follow... Start googling you will get reverse engineered stories and stolen technologies by China.


Last but not the least... Please stop being a mouth piece for Chinese. History suggests that you guys were once American mouthpiece and now against it. Firstly ask US to stop drone attacks completely and forever. Your govt knows about its complications though You either not aware of anything or you so pretend that you know everything.

So just because there were wars with these neighbors in the past makes you think that these countries will attack China in case of war with India ? :azn: ...

Potential contender ? Interesting but still if you get a seat in UNSC , you cant change nothing ... The Chinese can still veto any resolution ...

The J 10 A has been in service for past 6 years and still hasn't crashed more than 5 times ... Will it be enough ?
Since when does it become the " liability " for any fighter plane to get approved by USAF ? What sort of logics are you using ? Just find me a full developmental cycle of F22 Raptor and we will talk further ... Remember the CCP may fool its people , but not itself ... Read your naval chief's statement and you will understand ...

Tell you what ! I know the nasty Indian habit of going off topic trolling around like you just brought "export of terrorism " and " drone attacks " , but i can assure you that derailing the thread will get you nothing but a ban so stay on topic ...
 
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The lesson of 1962 is, "never believe the dictators of china, they can back stab anytime" and it was implemented in 1965, 1967, 1971, 1984. They got taste of the force. :smokin:
 
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your comment comfuse me. You said Tibet is a free nation, but now you occupy south Tibet, and dalai lama is living in your country, why don't you let he manage the land? You said you want free the Tibet but now you 'free' some, why don't you give the land back to 'Tibet'? Can you give me a reasonable explaination, too?

Dude, you just typed - You said you want free the Tibet but now you 'free' some, why don't you give the land back to 'Tibet'? - I really don't understand gibberish. Are you trying to say something?
 
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Ofcourse since you lost the war and a large portion of your land , do call it skirmish ... I can understand the psyche behind it :lol:
But i must tell you , from the world's perspective , it was an all out war which China conveniently won ...
Chinese lack of military history and success ? :azn: Ever taken a lesson in history or now the Indians blindly believe the sh!t on BR ? :undecided: As for the coincidence with the Cuban missile crisis , it is something which again the world knows as clever strategy ... What would you have done if you were in the place of the Chinese ? ... US came to Indian assistance but when really? After refusing IAF , fighter planes or when they told Nehru to take a couple of anti depressants after he made the demand that the delivered jets be manned by USAF and attack PLA ? :rofl:
Jawaharlal Nehru pleaded for US help against China in 1962 - Times Of India
There's a difference , PLA didn't occupy it for a week , they control it even to this day ... You shouldn't have provoked China by hosting then CIA funded Dalai Lama and making incursion into Chinese territory ... The territory which the Indian general said that he wasn't convinced " it was theirs" ... and then call the attack a deception and back stabbing when the CCP official paper warned clearly of a war and told the Indians " that they shouldn't complain later about a surprise attack " ...

I will be very happy to hear the Indian definition of victory , what is it ?

The Indian definition of victory is what happened to Pakistan in 1971 or happened to the Axis Powers in 1945 or what happened to France in 1939 - it usually involves a Treaty of Surrender - with one side winning and one side losing - usually preceded by a formal declaration of war. Sigh, what a shame my history education taught me all this - wouldn't I give an arm and a leg - perhaps literally - to be taught the madrassa definition of war.

We did the right thing by helping a Buddhist monk and his followers. We did the right thing in giving refuge to the Muslim Bengalis from East Pakistanis. We continue to give refuge to Hindus from present Pakistan - humanitarian concerns usually trump one upmanship in democratic setups.
 
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enough with this BS Nehru was a bastard China and India could have resolved the border issue in 1959 when Zhou was willing to compromise by recognizing Sikkim and AP apart of India in return for us recognizing tibet and aksai chin as apart of China

Nehru instead put forth the forward policy and i dont know what he was thinking a authoritarian regime like China will not lose face in front of its population so obviously they were going to respond now if Nehru had sent 100,000 troops to the north east and east Kashmir the outcome of 1962 would have been different but he did not do that despite the COAS warnings and pleas for more troops

the NDA government improved relations with China in 5 years whereas the Congress being in power for most of India's independent history did nothing instead always trying to go into a fight half cocked.
 
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The only way forward is to be prepared .China knows very well that India is the only country that can be a thorn in her path to Asian domination.I don't think Chinese soldiers are better than Indian soldiers.But they got numbers.They can simply keep throwing men and machines into the battlefield.

Chinese soliders are not exceptional than indian soldier but we control your water...do you see that make different, you can't stop us from being a dominant country in Asia but inversely we can stop India from grow economically and deceive you military thu reduce your power in south Asia...imagine an India with shortage of water.

It can be changed at anytime. Tibet is bordering us, this time Tibet will be librated like bangladesh.

Indeed, you can change anytime only if India is powerfull enough win the war against China to liberate Tibet...is that fair enough?
Inversely if we liberate those +300 millions of starving Indians that live with 1 meal per day. We chinese don't need to do much juste to provide food and water for these hungers and support their families...they will gladly win the war against India for us...Maoists can be our first contact, then we can liberate India anytime..cut land and distribute its for porverty as how we did in Tibet against those slave owners Tibetans.
 
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Chinese soliders are not exceptional than indian soldier but we control your water...do you see that make different, you can't stop us from being a dominant country in Asia but inversely we can stop India from grow economically and deceive you military thu reduce your power in south Asia...imagine an India with shortage of water.



Indeed, you can change anytime only if India is powerfull enough win the war against China to liberate Tibet...is that fair enough?
Inversely if we liberate those +300 millions of starving Indians that live with 1 meal per day. We chinese don't need to do much juste to provide food and water for these hungers and support their families...they will gladly win the war against India for us...Maoists can be our first contact, then we can liberate India anytime..cut land and distribute its for porverty as how we did in Tibet against those slave owners Tibetans.

Well we eat food only. Not anything or everything.:hitwall::hitwall:
 
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