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The Kashmir Dispute—the FAULTLINES : By Dr M K Teng

[QUOTE="WAJsal, post: 8575376, member: 161741"
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Desperation can lead to one taking stupid steps. Just loud talks and no real action(Policy? :lol: can't wait for it to be made official policy), still cannot counter us on basis on morals, nice try from Modi. Have to give it to him for trying.


Made up argument to please the Indian masses. Shias are more hardcore and share more sympathy towards Pakistan, as i said before this is a historic fact.

It's better than killing them.[/QUOTE]

Still lot better than Pak's brutality in Balochistan, Tribal regions and 71.
 
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@Rajaraja Chola
Still lot better than Pak's brutality in Balochistan, Tribal regions and 71.....

Unfortunately this is know to India only and never confirmed by any neutral party..
 
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@WAJsal

Your post above.

The absurdity and ludicrosity is similar to the Pakistani stand on Kashmir till date. I am glad your sensibilities got assaulted on the perspective as elaborated earlier. The feeling you have, is what I, as an Indian, have over the stand of the Pakistani establishment till date.

At the outset, I want to state that the ridiculous behavior of politicians on either side, in no part aided and perhaps 'egged on' by the jingoism and inappropriate sense of obligations towards exhibition of 'patriotism' by an ignorant population, has resulted in the issue becoming a restive issue over the past 25 years.

When I tagged you last night, it was to merely to point out that what I had been saying, is today the line being taken by GoI. That, as you will agree, is bound to set off another cycle of violence which will self propagate over the next few years with potentially disastrous consequences.

The cancer analogy, taking a cue from your earlier post, is the effect of the duplicitous stand of GoP and PA in differentiating between the good and bad militant (Taliban - a non state actor).

If you read the pathogenesis of any cancer, it is simply the inability of a mix of pro-apoptosis factors and Gene regulators of cell cycle to act. An example can be of p53, which acts as a regulator, preventing a wrongly coded cell from multiplying there by acting as an inhibitor of detrimental abnormal (cancer) cell or a failure of activity of Telomerase whose absence causes progeria (seen in Amitabh Bachchan's Pa) or increased activity - cancer. Similarly, the policy of sustaining and enabling armed militant groups to meet supposed interests in Afghanistan and Kashmir, are indeed similarly decimating the societal structure as prevalent in your country. The effects, are there for you to see. It is merely a question of an equally stupid policy being adopted by India, with the advantage of not having to train the cadre on its own soil, for the level of violence to be increased exponentially in Pakistan.

Hence, my point of view as above.

That you find my analogy of Baluchistan and J&K as BS, is something that is also indicative of a nationalistic streak at your end, something which is understandable and indeed desirable.

However, when you talk of logic, it shall be logic.

May I ask a few questions of you, since at present my own stupidities of personal nature preclude me from entering into a substantial and exhaustive discourse with an apparent erudite personality like youself without spending considerable time in responding?

The questions are as under mentioned:

1. The formation of Dominions of India & Pakistan are governed by Indian Independence Act of 1947. The accession of the Princely States is specified by Para 3 sub-clause (a). Do you accept the validity of the act and the provisions it contains as being a legal basis wherein the Dominions are legalized as Nation States?

2. What, as per you, constituted a Sovereign authority in a Princely State in the period preceding August 1947.

3. If, as per you, the British recognized the Maharaja of J&K as the sovereign for the state, then under what clause or act of the aforementioned act as mentioned in 1. above was the Maharaja NOT the legal sovereign of the State?

4. If, as per you, the Maharaja was not a legal sovereign, then under which clause was any other ruler of any other state a legal sovereign?

5. Why, in your opinion, was a standstill agreement signed by Pakistan when India did not, with Maharaja of Kashmir, if he was not a legal sovereign if you contend to it?

6. Assuming you consider the aforementioned Maharaja as the legal sovereign, then was it not a fact that as of 15 August 1947 Jammu and Kashmir was an independent State in addition to the two Dominions formed, the sovereign of which was the said Maharaja, and being a legal nation, it was an independent state which derived it's legitimacy from the very Act wherein Pakistan derived it's own legitimacy?

For now, I will be grateful if you could give precise and concise answers to the aforementioned questions, any relevant information which you may wish to include, may be highlighted devoid of the streaks of nationalism, patriotism and religious/ethnic fidelity, if any, you may suffer from.

I confess, my professional base tends to make me guilty of the first two and atheism potentiates a distaste and abhorrence for the latter.

I like the fact that you have asked me to be logical. Let's be that. Sequentially, logically and to the point. Only small segments at a time, so that we are clear about our respective understandings and mutual views in a phased manner. I must, however, seek your indulgence in my irregular responses till 30 September. I prefer to troll newbies now, as a means of break from my other task.

Thanks

And for your meme, your spidey's really sick now;)

@PaklovesTurkiye just tagged you to understand. Will tag you further if you wish, or will stop. But ponder over the questions above, too.

@zebra7 read here
 
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@WAJsal

Your post above.

The absurdity and ludicrosity is similar to the Pakistani stand on Kashmir till date. I am glad your sensibilities got assaulted on the perspective as elaborated earlier. The feeling you have, is what I, as an Indian, have over the stand of the Pakistani establishment till date.

At the outset, I want to state that the ridiculous behavior of politicians on either side, in no part aided and perhaps 'egged on' by the jingoism and inappropriate sense of obligations towards exhibition of 'patriotism' by an ignorant population, has resulted in the issue becoming a restive issue over the past 25 years.

When I tagged you last night, it was to merely to point out that what I had been saying, is today the line being taken by GoI. That, as you will agree, is bound to set off another cycle of violence which will self propagate over the next few years with potentially disastrous consequences.

The cancer analogy, taking a cue from your earlier post, is the effect of the duplicitous stand of GoP and PA in differentiating between the good and bad militant (Taliban - a non state actor).

If you read the pathogenesis of any cancer, it is simply the inability of a mix of pro-apoptosis factors and Gene regulators of cell cycle to act. An example can be of p53, which acts as a regulator, preventing a wrongly coded cell from multiplying there by acting as an inhibitor of detrimental abnormal (cancer) cell or a failure of activity of Telomerase whose absence causes progeria (seen in Amitabh Bachchan's Pa) or increased activity - cancer. Similarly, the policy of sustaining and enabling armed militant groups to meet supposed interests in Afghanistan and Kashmir, are indeed similarly decimating the societal structure as prevalent in your country. The effects, are there for you to see. It is merely a question of an equally stupid policy being adopted by India, with the advantage of not having to train the cadre on its own soil, for the level of violence to be increased exponentially in Pakistan.

Hence, my point of view as above.

That you find my analogy of Baluchistan and J&K as BS, is something that is also indicative of a nationalistic streak at your end, something which is understandable and indeed desirable.

However, when you talk of logic, it shall be logic.

May I ask a few questions of you, since at present my own stupidities of personal nature preclude me from entering into a substantial and exhaustive discourse with an apparent erudite personality like youself without spending considerable time in responding?

The questions are as under mentioned:

1. The formation of Dominions of India & Pakistan are governed by Indian Independence Act of 1947. The accession of the Princely States is specified by Para 3 sub-clause (a). Do you accept the validity of the act and the provisions it contains as being a legal basis wherein the Dominions are legalized as Nation States?

2. What, as per you, constituted a Sovereign authority in a Princely State in the period preceding August 1947.

3. If, as per you, the British recognized the Maharaja of J&K as the sovereign for the state, then under what clause or act of the aforementioned act as mentioned in 1. above was the Maharaja NOT the legal sovereign of the State?

4. If, as per you, the Maharaja was not a legal sovereign, then under which clause was any other ruler of any other state a legal sovereign?

5. Why, in your opinion, was a standstill agreement signed by Pakistan when India did not, with Maharaja of Kashmir, if he was not a legal sovereign if you contend to it?

6. Assuming you consider the aforementioned Maharaja as the legal sovereign, then was it not a fact that as of 15 August 1947 Jammu and Kashmir was an independent State in addition to the two Dominions formed, the sovereign of which was the said Maharaja, and being a legal nation, it was an independent state which derived it's legitimacy from the very Act wherein Pakistan derived it's own legitimacy?

For now, I will be grateful if you could give precise and concise answers to the aforementioned questions, any relevant information which you may wish to include, may be highlighted devoid of the streaks of nationalism, patriotism and religious/ethnic fidelity, if any, you may suffer from.

I confess, my professional base tends to make me guilty of the first two and atheism potentiates a distaste and abhorrence for the latter.

I like the fact that you have asked me to be logical. Let's be that. I must, however, seek your indulgence in my irregular responses till 30 September. I prefer to troll newbies now, as a means of break from my other task.

Thanks

And for your meme, your spidey's really sick now;)

<Phew!>
 
. . .
@Rajaraja Chola
Still lot better than Pak's brutality in Balochistan, Tribal regions and 71.....

Unfortunately this is know to India only and never confirmed by any neutral party..

Lol. For that Journalist shouldnt be threatened, kidnapped and killed. Shall I posts links of Journos targetted by Military for trying to write on Balochistan?
 
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Lol. For that Journalist shouldnt be threatened, kidnapped and killed. Shall I posts links of Journos targetted by Military for trying to write on Balochistan?
Please do quote investigation into such killings by any neutral body,as for I know I have boots on that land many times and quite good knowing in norms of that area,truth is that if another BD can be created out of it,then India would have invested on BLA instead of TTP but ground reality is that it's a tribal area,Govt has many tribes on it's side and some against,after development work in recent years anti-govt people's are losing ground every day to such an extent that they are only now keyboard warriors are good at targeting unarmed civilians.
 
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Please do quote investigation into such killings by any neutral body,as for I know I have boots on that land many times and quite good knowing in norms of that area,truth is that if another BD can be created out of it,then India would have invested on BLA instead of TTP but ground reality is that it's a tribal area,Govt has many tribes on it's side and some against,after development work in recent years anti-govt people's are losing ground every day to such an extent that they are only now keyboard warriors are good at targeting unarmed civilians.

More than half of the people here have been to Kashmir too... And Sri Nagar alone isnt Kashmir....
 
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I can SAFELY retire to a rear-echelon position. There is nothing I can do that you aren't doing better.

Over to you, champ.

No Sir. You are required to point and prod. That is something I look up to you for, to point me if am digressing or am plain off course. As am stuck with something else, my facts may be still off.

I am all for a logical discussion. But it should be slow, sequential and point to point. No opinions of others. Purely on facts as they stand. I look forward to anyone willing on a logical sequential discussion.
 
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When I tagged you last night, it was to merely to point out that what I had been saying, is today the line being taken by GoI. That, as you will agree, is bound to set off another cycle of violence which will self propagate over the next few years with potentially disastrous consequences.

The cancer analogy, taking a cue from your earlier post, is the effect of the duplicitous stand of GoP and PA in differentiating between the good and bad militant (Taliban - a non state actor).

If you read the pathogenesis of any cancer, it is simply the inability of a mix of pro-apoptosis factors and Gene regulators of cell cycle to act. An example can be of p53, which acts as a regulator, preventing a wrongly coded cell from multiplying there by acting as an inhibitor of detrimental abnormal (cancer) cell or a failure of activity of Telomerase whose absence causes progeria (seen in Amitabh Bachchan's Pa) or increased activity - cancer. Similarly, the policy of sustaining and enabling armed militant groups to meet supposed interests in Afghanistan and Kashmir, are indeed similarly decimating the societal structure as prevalent in your country. The effects, are there for you to see. It is merely a question of an equally stupid policy being adopted by India, with the advantage of not having to train the cadre on its own soil, for the level of violence to be increased exponentially in Pakistan.
Why is Indian state so late on this, waking up after 70 years. Bit odd? come on...i feel sorry here. Good tactics to diverts and mislead the Indian masses and watch how Indian state chickens out in coming months.

Secondly, i feel sorry for Indians. This is shameless and ludicrous beyond comprehension, i am surprised as to how you stand by these points and call them a policy while you should protest and raise your voice against them. Modi pretty much confessed to terrorism in Balochistan. I know he forgot to mention KPK, FATA and Karachi, i bet he had 'thank you' letters being sent to him by Mullah Radio.
Forget about Modi, i mean how is Indian masses taking this crap? you justify the killings of 80 odd people in Kashmir by comparing it to Blaochistan and FATA, wow. While the world and more importantly the Indian public is looking for a explanation on whats happening in Kashmir.

It reminds me of Indian posters on PDF, best defense: Pakistan is doing this and that in KPK, FATA. Maybe i am right in my assumption that majority of Indian public don't sympathize with Kashmiris, in fact they are quite happy with getting rid of them. 80 odd people dead is nothing. Maybe i need to be proven wrong.
The cancer analogy, taking a cue from your earlier post, is the effect of the duplicitous stand of GoP and PA in differentiating between the good and bad militant (Taliban - a non state actor).
Feeling more sorry, off topic not related. Is that the best justification for what is happening in Kashmir? I wonder why Indian state never raises the same voice against what's happening in Middle east, Syria or even Africa...


The absurdity and ludicrosity is similar to the Pakistani stand on Kashmir till date
Make the comparison. Please do remember Baluchistan is not disputed and please don't get desperate like PM Modi, discuss the topic on hand.
1. The formation of Dominions of India & Pakistan are governed by Indian Independence Act of 1947. The accession of the Princely States is specified by Para 3 sub-clause (a). Do you accept the validity of the act and the provisions it contains as being a legal basis wherein the Dominions are legalized as Nation States?

2. What, as per you, constituted a Sovereign authority in a Princely State in the period preceding August 1947.

3. If, as per you, the British recognized the Maharaja of J&K as the sovereign for the state, then under what clause or act of the aforementioned act as mentioned in 1. above was the Maharaja NOT the legal sovereign of the State?

4. If, as per you, the Maharaja was not a legal sovereign, then under which clause was any other ruler of any other state a legal sovereign?

5. Why, in your opinion, was a standstill agreement signed by Pakistan when India did not, with Maharaja of Kashmir, if he was not a legal sovereign if you contend to it?

6. Assuming you consider the aforementioned Maharaja as the legal sovereign, then was it not a fact that as of 15 August 1947 Jammu and Kashmir was an independent State in addition to the two Dominions formed, the sovereign of which was the said Maharaja, and being a legal nation, it was an independent state which derived it's legitimacy from the very Act wherein Pakistan derived it's own legitimacy?
Mahraja didn't accede with what the people of the state wanted, Kashmir was a Muslim majority state and wanted to join Pakistan. Thus, UN resolution and pleblicite...With the resolution, it kills any debate of accession. Accession is not even part of the picture now.
Obviously the Indian state wants to highlight these points now as they are scared of any referendum. I was expecting better argument in reply.
Now compare this to what India's done in Junagadh, it accepts accession of Kahmiri Mahraja but it doesn't accept the wishes of Mahraja of Junagadh. Hypocrisy, you kill the accession debate anyway. Discussing it means you are looking for easy way out.

Still lot better than Pak's brutality in Balochistan, Tribal regions and 71.
See @hellfire , this is your best justification or explanation. How do you live with this crap?
Joe, how are you taking your states explanation on people being killed in Kashmir? Poor school kid died today, i think 3 more died just today.
Best part is you are bringing us for no reason, what do we have to do with killings of Kashmiris recently?
 
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Why is Indian state so late on this, waking up after 70 years. Bit odd? come on...i feel sorry here. Good tactics to diverts and mislead the Indian masses and watch how Indian state chickens out in coming months.

Secondly, i feel sorry for Indians. This is shameless and ludicrous beyond comprehension, i am surprised as to how you stand by these points and call them a policy while you should protest and raise your voice against them. Modi pretty much confessed to terrorism in Balochistan. I know he forgot to mention KPK, FATA and Karachi, i bet he had 'thank you' letters being sent to him by Mullah Radio.
Forget about Modi, i mean how is Indian masses taking this crap? you justify the killings of 80 odd people in Kashmir by comparing it to Blaochistan and FATA, wow. While the world and more importantly the Indian public is looking for a explanation on whats happening in Kashmir.

It reminds me of Indian posters on PDF, best defense: Pakistan is doing this and that in KPK, FATA. Maybe i am right in my assumption that majority of Indian public don't sympathize with Kashmiris, in fact they are quite happy with getting rid of them. 80 odd people dead is nothing. Maybe i need to be proven wrong.



Make the comparison. Please do remember Baluchistan is not disputed and please don't get desperate like PM Modi, discuss the topic on hand.

Mahraja didn't accede with what the people of the state wanted, Kashmir was a Muslim majority state and wanted to join Pakistan. Thus, UN resolution and pleblicite...With the resolution, it kills any debate of accession. Accession is not even part of the picture now.
Obviously the Indian state wants to highlight these points now as they are scared of any referendum. I was expecting better argument in reply.
Now compare this to what India's done in Junagadh, it accepts accession of Kahmiri Mahraja but it doesn't accept the wishes of Mahraja of Junagadh. Hypocrisy, you kill the accession debate anyway. Discussing it means you are looking for easy way out.


See @hellfire , this is your best justification or explanation. How do you live with this crap?

Joe, how are you taking your states explanation on people being killed in Kashmir? Poor school kid died today, i think 3 more died just today.
Best part is you are bringing us for no reason, what do we have to do with killings of Kashmiris recently?

I will reply to this in detail. But not now.

And, incidentally, a good starting point would be to respond to his questions. If each of us takes up a point of view, and none of these converge, then there will only be noise, no discussion. Why don't you answer them?
 
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And, incidentally, a good starting point would be to respond to his questions. If each of us takes up a point of view, and none of these converge, then there will only be noise, no discussion. Why don't you answer them?
Answered all of them, the debate about accession is not in question. We don't accept it period, and after the UN resolution it kills any debate of it too. While searching for any argument on this subject can only mean that one is running away from the real debate.

Secondly, sorry for being harsh this is an emotional topic for me.
 
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Answered all of them, the debate about accession is not in question. We don't accept it period, and after the UN resolution it kills any debate of it too. While searching for any argument on this subject can only mean that one is running away from the real debate.

Secondly, sorry for being harsh this is an emotional topic for me.

I realise that, and I completely accept your sentiments, but shutting off that essential part and insisting that we start the discussion from the second chapter is not going to convince anyone, is it? What will happen is that you will insist that the first part doesn't exist, you will be told that the second part couldn't have happened without the first part.

So then let might rule. Why bother to discuss anything, when one side insists on starting at a point of its own convenience, and on shutting away everything unfavourable or unpleasant?

And that has nothing to do with not caring for the people. It has everything to do with caring for the people. Only a constitutional rule, one of the rule of law, in a secular state, can care for the people. The alternative will land up, as we have seen, caring for some of the 'chosen', and the others being left out. Do you call that caring for the people?
 
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I realise that, and I completely accept your sentiments, but shutting off that essential part and insisting that we start the discussion from the second chapter is not going to convince anyone, is it? What will happen is that you will insist that the first part doesn't exist, you will be told that the second part couldn't have happened without the first part.

So then let might rule. Why bother to discuss anything, when one side insists on starting at a point of its own convenience, and on shutting away everything unfavourable or unpleasant?

And that has nothing to do with not caring for the people. It has everything to do with caring for the people. Only a constitutional rule, one of the rule of law, in a secular state, can care for the people. The alternative will land up, as we have seen, caring for some of the 'chosen', and the others being left out. Do you call that caring for the people?
The first chapter holds no value, you don't raise this argument officially too. Why should we waste time discussing a dead end. This debate would be hot if we were discussing this in 1947, accession is not in question now. Especially after the UN resolution.
And i have replied to the questions briefly too, while questioning Pakistan stance on accession of Jammu and Kashmir why isn't accession of Hyderabad, or Junagadh respected. It's hypocritical at its best, thus the reason Indian ruling elite has dragged it under the carpet, they know their case is a dead one.

Continuing to discuss dead ends will not lead to any result.
 
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