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The Kargil Conflict Revisited

Looks like the Establishment is not that happy with Musharraf. They have sent their point man to do a hit job. And he does it well.

Former Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz’s upcoming book has already raked up the Kargil episode and the book is not even about Kargil! From what has so far appeared, there’s nothing he has said that is not already known.

Yet, there’s back and forth between Aziz and Musharraf. This is the problem with avoiding closures. It is somewhat ironic that any mention of Kargil, the operation Musharraf defends with such vehemence, upsets him greatly. It’s almost like he knows that operation is unlikely to place him in the hall of fame. Infamy is, of course, another matter.

Consider.

The first and the most important issue is whether the civilian government gave a nod to the operation. Musharraf says then-prime minister (PM) Nawaz Sharif was in the know of it. Perhaps, but the question is: when was the PM told about it; or, to what extent? It is one thing for a civilian government to order the army to start a conflict and quite another for a cabal of generals to initiate hostilities and then inform the PM and other services that the bow is bent and drawn.
Available evidence points to the fact that Sharif was given fait accompli and thus placed in a terribly unenviable position — especially if we note that Sharif was already committed to a process of rapprochement with New Delhi and had hosted the Indian PM, oblivious to what the generals had pulled.

Musharraf’s assertion becomes doubtful also because the operation was kept hush-hush to the point where even chiefs of air force and navy were not informed until the Northern Light Infantry — then a paramilitary force — troops and other support elements had occupied some 500 square miles of the area. In fact, the DGMO, Lt Gen Tauqir Zia (retd), was ordered, ex post facto, to come up with a rationale to justify the operation.

If there ever was a classic example of situating the appreciation rather than appreciating the situation, this was it.

If truth be told, they had no plan, neither strategic nor tactical. No thought was given to whether the environment at the regional and global levels was conducive for such an operation. There was no proper assessment of the Indian response and it was assumed, arbitrarily, that India would resign to the occupation instead of mounting a maximum effort to evict our troops. Or what options, if any, Pakistan could exercise in case the Indians decided, which sure as hell they would have and did, to sacrifice any number of men to regain lost positions. How would our troops survive beyond a certain point in the absence of a secure line of communication; what will happen when they run out of rations and ammunition and when casualties begin to mount and the men left to fend for themselves?

Did the plan cater to that? Were we prepared to open another front across the LoC to force the Indians to reorganise and thereby ensure that the mounting pressure on the men we had left trapped on those heights was released? And if that scenario was indeed war-gamed, did the game factor in the Indian response if we chose to expand the zone of conflict? From the conversation between Musharraf and then-CGS Aziz Khan, which was intercepted, it doesn’t seem to me that any of these scenarios were war-gamed. Oh, and that conversation not only gives the lie to Musharraf’s Sharif-knew-it position but also makes a mockery of his great insistence on secrecy, exchange notes as he did on a top secret operational matter on an open, unsecure line. And CGS Aziz’ boasts show how poorly they had assessed India’s response and their own perceived advantage.

Secrecy has levels and Musharraf was not mounting a Special Forces operation which required going in, executing a mission and getting out. Even such an operation would have required political consent.

At some point the Indians would have known about the occupation. If Musharraf and his lieutenants had worked out the scenarios, they would have known that they could not finger India without the other two services onboard and, in the worst-case scenario, preparing the nation for a possible broader conflict.

In his book, in the chapter on Kargil, Musharraf keeps talking about deploying troops to cover gaps along the LoC, why others outside the FCNA and 10 Corps were not informed, why India was in no position to opt for an all-out war and in the same breath talks about India’s use of air force, its disproportionate response and the war hysteria that had gripped India and which necessitated pulling in the CAS and the CNS. The chapter is remarkable for its disingenuousness and inconsistencies.

Brig Shaukat Qadir (retd) in his article for the RUSI (Royal United Services Institute) journal argues that the operation began with limited objectives but acquired a bigger momentum. That is possible, though I can’t see how it could have expanded so much on the spur of the moment. But if it indeed did, that still reflects poorly on the commanders who turned salami slicing into a huge embarrassment for the Indian Army which it just could not swallow.

At the politico-strategic level, Musharraf made no serious attempt to understand the impact of diplomacy being conducted between Islamabad and Delhi. Nor does it seem that he realised how effectively India would combine its local military response with its diplomatic offensive.
His assertion that Sharif lost the war on the political front which he (Musharraf) was winning on the ground is nothing if not dishonest, the bravery of the men on the ground notwithstanding. US General Anthony Zinni, a Musharraf friend, has a different account and informal talks with a number of officers over the years corroborate that account.

Some former officers on internet discussion forums fault Shahid Aziz for not taking to the grave service matters. That’s poppycock. Kargil requires closure not just because we need to honour those who fought like dickens and fell to a harebrained plan as much as enemy fire, but also because we need to identify the structural flaws in decision-making that now threaten to unravel us.
 
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It was a great victory anyway.. We did not need to ride of the shoulders of dead Pakistani soldiers who died for an uncalled for, unplanned blunder of a Pakistani general (now criminal)..

you did ride on the shoulders of dead Pakistani soldiers when your air force shot down an unarmed Pakistan navy plane and showed its parts to your prime minister.
 
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Wasnt there a talk of how the numbers from Musharraf's time were overstated and since it was dictatorship, no one could question the same.. And remember that it was this very public who ousted Musharraf.. Not someone from out side..

There is talk and then there is the walk, during Musharraf's tenure our foreign reserves were over US$ 17 Billion, we had no need for IMF loans and our repayments were smooth, the US$ held firm at Rs. 60/$ and the overall foreign debt decreased to US$ 30 Billion. Today the US$ stants at Rs. 100/$ and foreign debt stands at US$ 62 Billion....you can do the math.

Not only that, in 2005/06 our gdp growth rate was higher then that of India, our exports were increasing and imports were decreasing, we did not have this acute shortage of electricity, gas or oil and we were progressing rapidly. Daily use commodities including food items were a quarter (on average) of what they are today, petrol was Rs. 54/litre (today it is Rs. 103/litre thanks to the intervention of Supreme Court otherwise it would have been Rs. 130+/litre), mafias such as sugar mafia, flour mafia etc. were all under control, situation of law and order was a lot lot better. I can just go on and on dude.



Not at all.. You did..

Perhaps you did not mean to offend when you discussed the subject of a certain someone swimming up and down the drain.



Musharraf claimed that there were no Pakistani regulars and they got involved only after IAF started their sorties.. That was a shameface lie.. Now I could go with your argument of confidentiality while the skirmishes were going on, but he has maintained that till now.. That's what makes him a shame faced liar..

Well, there were no Pakistani regulars, period!

Then good work Indian propaganda machine for winning the PR war when the actual war which was actually won by pakistan ...:lol:

I wouldn't say we won the war, India won the war as we failed to achieve our military/political objectives. But my point is that our retreat was imposed by our own politicians and not by Indian military. We won most of the military battles but lost the war in America.
 
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Call it whatever you want... .. Musharraf has a history of venting his failures on Pakistanis

When in Siachen he failed in 1987 to capture the posts from Indian Army, he went around taking his frustration out on Shias of Gilgit and Baltistan.

In 1999 when he failed in Kargil (Peak 5353 notwithstanding :D), he went ahead and subverted the whole country of Pakistan and gifter WoT to Pakistani citizens :D

Not going into the whole debate of multiple topics in your post, can I ask you what could Musharraf or anyone else have had done regarding WoT?
 
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Lol mental masturbation because of 2 jets shot down?
This is just the same nonsense as with the sinking of one single IN frigate during the 1971 war.

Something insignificant to the outcome.


Did Pakistan capture Kashmir because of this? NO. You made yourself total fools in front of the international community.

PS: It is not even confirmed that the 2end jet (a Mig 27) was lost because of ground fire, it possible that the pilot had to eject because of engine trouble in the high altitude area.

I agree with this theory the MiG-27 has a history of known engine related problems which is why the Russians retired them so quickly. Not to mention the Pakistanis getting all tickled pink on this thread seem to forget that they technically lost the war because as Musharaf stated himself the purpose was to cut off Indian supply lines to Siachen prompting a Pakistani takeover or a Indian unilateral withdrawal neither of which occurred being that the war was in India's favor since the Pakistani military retreated (as a result of a deteriorating war scenario and with no international support not even from China.)
 
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your Musharaf recently talking to India Anchor Arnab Goswami said that the planes were shot down by Mujahidin. So he lied!!
Liars Liars Paindabad.

Even if they were, they were shot down in Pakistani territory so job well done

By the way, Gen Musharraf kicked that emotional twat of a reporter and sent him to hang and dry. He should consider a new career :lol:
 
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Call it whatever you want... .. Musharraf has a history of venting his failures on Pakistanis

When in Siachen he failed in 1987 to capture the posts from Indian Army, he went around taking his frustration out on Shias of Gilgit and Baltistan.

In 1999 when he failed in Kargil (Peak 5353 notwithstanding :D), he went ahead and subverted the whole country of Pakistan and gifter WoT to Pakistani citizens :D

Your post doesn't reflect realities but is based on he same logic (illogic) of your brilliant journalists in hindustan

At least he has the courage to face hostile receptions on your garbage media shows while your 2 faced military and govt would be scared to come to our country and face our audience.

That's the difference between us and you people. The latter are hypocrites who obcess and think they can peddle lies about our military and get away with it before having their arguments totally debased
 
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There is talk and then there is the walk, during Musharraf's tenure our foreign reserves were over US$ 17 Billion, we had no need for IMF loans and our repayments were smooth, the US$ held firm at Rs. 60/$ and the overall foreign debt decreased to US$ 30 Billion. Today the US$ stants at Rs. 100/$ and foreign debt stands at US$ 62 Billion....you can do the math.

Not only that, in 2005/06 our gdp growth rate was higher then that of India, our exports were increasing and imports were decreasing, we did not have this acute shortage of electricity, gas or oil and we were progressing rapidly. Daily use commodities including food items were a quarter (on average) of what they are today, petrol was Rs. 54/litre (today it is Rs. 103/litre thanks to the intervention of Supreme Court otherwise it would have been Rs. 130+/litre), mafias such as sugar mafia, flour mafia etc. were all under control, situation of law and order was a lot lot better. I can just go on and on dude.

How does it makes him a saint? It was cumulative effort of nation not just an effort from a dictator.
  • He is still liar a absconded convict sought by law.
  • He is still a shameless two faced person brought disgrace to dead soldiers by refusing to acknowledge dead bodies and later awarding some of them for bravery at his convenience
  • He is still a person who humiliated put his own nation in from of international community and put it's on the board of shame
  • He is still a person (coward indeed) enjoying good life outside while his mother land is burning

Well, there were no Pakistani regulars, period!
I wouldn't say we won the war, India won the war as we failed to achieve our military/political objectives. But my point is that our retreat was imposed by our own politicians and not by Indian military. We won most of the military battles but lost the war in America.

Thanks for being honest and accepting that Pakistan faced military and political defeat. Highlighted parts above are contradicting each other...

  • Pakistan was winning but begged USA to let Indians stop onslaught?
  • Pakistan was winning BUT "There were no Pakistani regulars involved but Pakistan withdraw it's forces".
  • Pakistan did an excellent job by withdrawing something did not belongs to Pakistan forces even though they had upper hand
  • PA was not involved so they did not accept dead bodies but PA was generous enough to give gallantry awards to some people by employing them in PA after they died in battle to honor them
    :undecided:

Again I agree to few members questioniong the need of such threads!
 
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Looks like the Establishment is not that happy with Musharraf. They have sent their point man to do a hit job. And he does it well.

It is clear from the turn of events; that GHQ and Gen Kiyani are not welcoming of Musharraff anymore. Musharraff had sold the PA 'down the river'; if he is allowed to return to Pakistan, then the PA will be hard-pressed to acknowledge him as one of their own. More disclosures will tumble out and PA will have to become more silent; because of Cowboy Musharraff's misadventures on the heights of Kargil.
One great irony is that Maj Gen Javed Hassan then FCNA Comdr (and one of the Gang of 4) got promoted to Lt Gen after that episode and went on to become Commandant of NDC; which is the cradle of the higher brains of the PA!! :)
 
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It is clear from the turn of events; that GHQ and Gen Kiyani are not welcoming of Musharraff anymore. Musharraff had sold the PA 'down the river'; if he is allowed to return to Pakistan, then the PA will be hard-pressed to acknowledge him as one of their own. More disclosures will tumble out and PA will have to become more silent; because of Cowboy Musharraff's misadventures on the heights of Kargil.
One great irony is that Maj Gen Javed Hassan then FCNA Comdr (and one of the Gang of 4) got promoted to Lt Gen after that episode and went on to become Commandant of NDC; which is the cradle of the higher brains of the PA!! :)

+ I guess the Establishment thinks he will be a political contestant to their favourites TUQ or Imran Khan and hence wants to scuttle his return to Pakistan by turning the public opinion against him.
 
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+ I guess the Establishment thinks he will be a political contestant to their favourites TUQ or Imran Khan and hence wants to scuttle his return to Pakistan by turning the public opinion against him.

That is hard to confirm. Both TUQ and Imran are simply in the role of 'spoilers' right now. Neither of them can ascend the throne by himself and whether they will come together is unknown. So political instability and manuevering is the most likely scenario.

But as far as Musharraff is concerned; the PA will not touch him with a barge-pole. He is as popular as a cancer.
 
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you did ride on the shoulders of dead Pakistani soldiers when your air force shot down an unarmed Pakistan navy plane and showed its parts to your prime minister.


Remind me some time to remind you some time how one of the Gujarat Chief Ministers died, after his pilot tried his best to show the PAF hero on his tail that he was flying an unarmed civilian aircraft.

I am sorry to sound harsh, especially to you, since normally you are so fair and even, but this statement turned my stomach.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/after-46-yrs-the-healing-touch-pak-pilot-says-sorry-for-mistake/829634
 
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I wouldn't say we won the war, India won the war as we failed to achieve our military/political objectives. But my point is that our retreat was imposed by our own politicians and not by Indian military. We won most of the military battles but lost the war in America.

OK ...Which war are you talking about ?? 65 or kargil or both .
 
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It is clear from the turn of events; that GHQ and Gen Kiyani are not welcoming of Musharraff anymore. Musharraff had sold the PA 'down the river'; if he is allowed to return to Pakistan, then the PA will be hard-pressed to acknowledge him as one of their own. More disclosures will tumble out and PA will have to become more silent; because of Cowboy Musharraff's misadventures on the heights of Kargil.
One great irony is that Maj Gen Javed Hassan then FCNA Comdr (and one of the Gang of 4) got promoted to Lt Gen after that episode and went on to become Commandant of NDC; which is the cradle of the higher brains of the PA!! :)

True. So many skeletons wouldn't have tumbled out of the closet without the green signal of Gen Kayani. I think he understands that Musharaff is nothing more than a burden and embarrasment and needs to be cut loose. I believe this is also the end of Musharaff's Political career. His position will only get more and more untenable.

This is his latest interview on 2nd Feb. He gets owned by Shahzeb Khanzada in the program "to the Point". The guy does the probing very well. Arnab should learn from him - how to probe without shouting.

 
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No but what's funny is that now you goofs are telling us who is good and who isn't good for OUR country.

I still respect Musharraf despite whatever happened which we can't change over 13 years later!! He's a patriot and he had Pakistans interest at heart. It was the PM who really sold us out (if you really feel the need to obcess over.

That is hard to confirm. Both TUQ and Imran are simply in the role of 'spoilers' right now. Neither of them can ascend the throne by himself and whether they will come together is unknown. So political instability and manuevering is the most likely scenario.

But as far as Musharraff is concerned; the PA will not touch him with a barge-pole. He is as popular as a cancer.
you Indians again with your sensationalism

Tell me when Army offered a statement of their endorsement for either of the 2 men?

The Army has actually been very smart about remaining behind the scenes and not commenting or endorsing any political related discussion. And here you come out from the blue with a list of Army "favorites"

Wah


:laugh:
 
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