The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[Ultima Thule]

"I was referring to the WS-15 production rates your source stated ... rates that are quite low."

As I have said, this Report's writer do not know what is PLAAF's production plans are for the next few years. The 5 WS-15 engines for 2026 is obviously absurdly low, even just for this company.

"If I'm not mistaken, Oedosoldier stated these are just financial forecasts and the company in question is not involved in the WS-15 component production but rather WS-10 production.'

I beg to differ.

This company seems to be involved in the components production for every type of PLAAF engines and Chinese civilian engine.

Beside the WS-10, there is WS-10/12 Catapult Engines, low serial production WS-15, testing/development WS-15 with 12 nozzle petals, and the Engine for the next generation of fighter beyond J-20, currently under testing and development.

As I have said, since we have seen pictures of J-20 equipped with two engines with WS-10 like nozzles, and this Report has stated that there are two WS-10, WS-12 engines customized to Catapult launch, it is highly likely that a navalized version of J-20, will be PLAAF's main strike force for the newer Aircraft carriers with Electro-magnetic Catapult.

If I were the F/A-18 and F-35 pilots, I would stay away from this navalized J-20 beast.

There are no WS-12 never heard of it, only WS-13 and in development WS-19 are known

 

[Deino]

There are no WS-12 never heard of it, only WS-13 and in development WS-19 are known

But that's again his usual habit: over-interpret some files, mix it with invented so called data, spin a fancy theory and hype it: Yes, there are so many black holes in his theory, that it even sometimes would be funny, but not here in a serious thread.

- there is no WS-12 catapult engine
- there is no carrier variant of the J-20
- why should a fighter currently already flying with two different engines (original AL-31FN based one for Batch 1 and WS-10C for Batch 2) and ready to fit a third one (WS-15 in the future) now be developed, tested and certified with a forth one only for carrier-operations?
- this long report filled with some data and endless numbers is in no way as he claimed a detailed report so that any foreign company can deduct the detailed CAD plans and therefore performances of any engine (that's impossible)
- ... and so on.

In the end, nothing but BS and as usual all again without any proof, without any explanation, ... pure imagination.

 

[Asoka]

But that's again his usual habit: over-interpret some files, mix it with invented so called data, spin a fancy theory and hype it: Yes, there are so many black holes in his theory, that it even sometimes would be funny, but not here in a serious thread.

- there is no WS-12 catapult engine
- there is no carrier variant of the J-20
- why should a fighter currently already flying with two different engines (original AL-31FN based one for Batch 1 and WS-10C for Batch 2) and ready to fit a third one (WS-15 in the future) now be developed, tested and certified with a forth one only for carrier-operations?
- this long report filled with some data and endless numbers is in no way as he claimed a detailed report so that any foreign company can deduct the detailed CAD plans and therefore performances of any engine (that's impossible)
- ... and so on.

In the end, nothing but BS and as usual all again without any proof, without any explanation, ... pure imagination.

1. "there is no WS-12 catapult engine

We have seen pictures of two J-20 equipped with WS-10 like saw-tooth nozzles.
This Report stated that there are two WS-10/12 Catapult engines under limited production.

Naturally, this could indicates J-20 is being testing with these two WS-10/12 engines, and since only a carrier based aircraft needs to be catapult.

Thus, we can assume a navalized version of J-20 is under development.

2. - there is no carrier variant of the J-20

Yes, that is true, we haven't seen a J-20 with folded wing, landing hook, dual front wheels, taking off or landing on a Chinese Aircraft.

But this does not mean PLAAN is not development a navalized version of J-20.

3. - why should a fighter currently already flying with two different engines (original AL-31FN based one for Batch 1 and WS-10C for Batch 2) and ready to fit a third one (WS-15 in the future) now be developed, tested and certified with a forth one only for carrier-operations?

AL-31FN was never tested with J-20. This was a mistaken assumption. That was an early version of WS-15, all along, since the day one of the testing program. This early WS-15 engine's nozzlealthough has a superficial resemblance to the AL-31, actually has a 3D TVC, which was shown in several photos.

Yes, I do believe a newer WS-15 with 3D TVC and 12 nozzle petals are under development. This is probably the mass serial production version.

The current WS-15 is the low serial production version.

I don't know why there are two WS-10/12 CATAPULT engines. But we did have seen pictures of J-20 with two different WS-10/12 engine, in the last several years.

4. "- this long report filled with some data and endless numbers is in no way as he claimed a detailed report so that any foreign company can deduct the detailed CAD plans and therefore performances of any engine (that's impossible)
- ... and so on."

Yes, this Report was several hundred pages long, and was filled with all kinds of production data for the aircraft engines component, before it was deleted by the censor.

Only a few pages was leaked.

5. "any foreign company can deduct the detailed CAD plans and therefore performances of any engine (that's impossible)
- ... and so on."

I have said, if a foreign company got hold of this report, which contains numerous part names and precise dimension, a competent engineer could reproduce the engines, and deduce the power rating or thrust.

This is how serious, I think this is leak was.

It took only one day for the Chinese Censor to spring into action, and scrub clean all references to this leak in Chinese internet.

Here is the only place, you could still see this leak, thanks to me.

And you are very welcome, Herr Dieno.

 

[Ultima Thule]

1. "there is no WS-12 catapult engine

We have seen pictures of two J-20 equipped with WS-10 like saw-tooth nozzles.
This Report stated that there are two WS-10/12 Catapult engines under limited production.

Naturally, this could indicates J-20 is being testing with these two WS-10/12 engines, and since only a carrier based aircraft needs to be catapult.

Thus, we can assume a navalized version of J-20 is under development.

2. - there is no carrier variant of the J-20

Yes, that is true, we haven't seen a J-20 with folded wing, landing hook, dual front wheels, taking off or landing on a Chinese Aircraft.

But this does not mean PLAAN is not development a navalized version of J-20.

3. - why should a fighter currently already flying with two different engines (original AL-31FN based one for Batch 1 and WS-10C for Batch 2) and ready to fit a third one (WS-15 in the future) now be developed, tested and certified with a forth one only for carrier-operations?

AL-31FN was never tested with J-20. This was a mistaken assumption. That was an early version of WS-15, all along, since the day one of the testing program. This early WS-15 engine's nozzlealthough has a superficial resemblance to the AL-31, actually has a 3D TVC, which was shown in several photos.

Yes, I do believe a newer WS-15 with 3D TVC and 12 nozzle petals are under development. This is probably the mass serial production version.

The current WS-15 is the low serial production version.

I don't know why there are two WS-10/12 CATAPULT engines. But we did have seen pictures of J-20 with two different WS-10/12 engine, in the last several years.

4. "- this long report filled with some data and endless numbers is in no way as he claimed a detailed report so that any foreign company can deduct the detailed CAD plans and therefore performances of any engine (that's impossible)
- ... and so on."

Yes, this Report was several hundred pages long, and was filled with all kinds of production data for the aircraft engines component, before it was deleted by the censor.

Only a few pages was leaked.

5. "any foreign company can deduct the detailed CAD plans and therefore performances of any engine (that's impossible)
- ... and so on."

I have said, if a foreign company got hold of this report, which contains numerous part names and precise dimension, a competent engineer could reproduce the engines, and deduce the power rating or thrust.

This is how serious, I think this is leak was.

It took only one day for the Chinese Censor to spring into action, and scrub clean all references to this leak in Chinese internet.

Here is the only place, you could still see this leak, thanks to me.

And you are very welcome, Herr Dieno.

Bro don't troll or gives us the evidence, there are no proof that early J-20 using WS-15 we consider this your baseless assumptions, and there is no WS-12 CATAPULT ENGINE, most Navies of the world those have Aircraft carrier are using standard land based fighter jet engine for carrier use like F18 b/c using F-404 same engine is used by Spain/Kuwait for their land based jet, same goes to RAFALE, which have standard engine for RAFALE B/C and for their NAVAL RAFALE M, There is no WS-12 CATAPULT ENGINE

 

[Figaro]

Bro don't troll or gives us the evidence, there are no proof that early J-20 using WS-15 we consider this your baseless assumptions, and there is no WS-12 CATAPULT ENGINE, most Navies of the world those have Aircraft carrier are using standard land based fighter jet engine for carrier use like F18 b/c using F-404 same engine is used by Spain/Kuwait for their land based jet, same goes to RAFALE, which have standard engine for RAFALE B/C and for their NAVAL RAFALE M, There is no WS-12 CATAPULT ENGINE

I have heard of a WS-12 somewhere ... I don't remember anything about a catapult engine but I'm sure the WS-12 is an actual engine.

3. - why should a fighter currently already flying with two different engines (original AL-31FN based one for Batch 1 and WS-10C for Batch 2) and ready to fit a third one (WS-15 in the future) now be developed, tested and certified with a forth one only for carrier-operations?

AL-31FN was never tested with J-20. This was a mistaken assumption. That was an early version of WS-15, all along, since the day one of the testing program. This early WS-15 engine's nozzlealthough has a superficial resemblance to the AL-31, actually has a 3D TVC, which was shown in several photos.

Yes, I do believe a newer WS-15 with 3D TVC and 12 nozzle petals are under development. This is probably the mass serial production version.

Are you for real? And I thought you finally came to the realization that the J-20 was not initially tested with the 240kN+ WS-15 after all these years ...

 

[Ultima Thule]

I have heard of a WS-12 somewhere ... I don't remember anything about a catapult engine but I'm sure the WS-12 is an actual engine.

Sorry sir i never heard about WS-12 may be you read somewhere WP-12 which was turbojet not turbofan, even @Deino sir not heard about WS-12

 

[lcloo]

Interesting to find WS-12 engine discussion. According to this article in 2017, WS-12 development project was halted in 1993, and in its place a new project WS-13 took over using some of research data of WS-12.

Note that WS-12 engine project is not related to WS-10 engine.

So, WS-12 engine development project did exist, but it was cancelled and replaced by WS-13. Thus there never was any (completed) WS-12 engine in physical form, just R&D works.


中国夭折了一款涡扇-12发动机后 涡扇-13借壳重生！歼-31靠它了！
1080军事台

发布时间：17-11-0113:55鼎盛互联（北京）文化传播有限公司

　　前两天聊了一下WS12和高推的故事，到了1993年，他们受到中俄航空技术合作协议的影响，都终止了。WS12的技术一部分转移到后续的WP13大推力改型的上，另外一部分转为课题研究缓慢的继续。

　　中俄航空技术合作让我们有机会时隔40年以后重新接收苏式设备和技术，航空发动机方面，俄罗斯有大量的成熟的工程型号可以供选择和参考，由于中国引进苏27和苏联解体后俄罗斯经济困难，特别是米格29的长期滞销，我国在花费较少的情况下获得了RD33的一系列资料。但是，中国此时已经没有能使用这种发动机的飞机了，所以，引进技术和资料都基本以纯研究和学术方式进行。

　　1998年，中国和巴基斯坦联合研发的FC1战斗机确定使用俄罗斯RD93发动机，这是一个极佳的机会，它大概会消费总计200台发动机，原本俄罗斯鉴于和印度的军贸关系，一直不太愿意提供，而他们又确实不想放弃这笔巨额交易，结果，走了一个折衷的路线，向中国出口100台RD93发动机，并不管中国将这种产品外销还是自用。中国负责这批产品的后续保养维修。由于需要从中国输出，那么这台发动机获得一个国内的发动机编号WS-13.

　　RD33是俄罗斯在70年代设计的一种小涵道比涡扇发动机，性能稳定，工作泼辣，有较大的喘振裕度，但是因为设计年代较早，一些技术相对保守和陈旧，WS12的研发基本都在80年代，元器件水平比RD33要高出一个层级，两者推力差不多，循环参数，流量，尺寸都很接近，因此，624和贵阳黎明想借此平台，用单元零件更换的方式，进行小步快跑，实现WS12的技术向实用化转移，最终让以前的心血不白费，换取一台全新的，先进的中推发动机。

　　首先进行的是用原为WS12配套的三级风扇替换RD33的4级风扇，RD33的4级风扇虽然采用了无凸肩叶片，但是展弦比较大，风扇叶片强度偏低，耐杂物和鸟撞性能很差，迫使米格29必须采用复杂笨重的进气道挡板，即便如此，RD33风扇还是很脆弱，麻雀大小的鸟就会让其风扇碎裂，这和后期的发动机差距明显。

　　新三级风扇第一级采用宽弦无凸肩叶片，比原风扇第一级耐冲击强度提高了10倍以上，可耐受鸟类冲击直接达到最新的标准。新风扇使发动机长度减少了44毫米，考虑到发动机本身安装架构问题，并没有调整发动机外壳尺度，但风扇前的4片固定支撑轴的导向叶片就变成前掠的了，这是一个识别特征。新风扇压比稍高于原风扇，喘振裕度接近，流量高了6KG，不加力推力从49.4KN提高到54KN，加力推力88.94KN，实验从1996年开始，1998年通过第一次试车。

　　细心一点我们可以发现，这个发动机推力和目前克里莫夫配置在米格29K和米格35上的RD33MK基本一致，但两者实现的技术途径是不一样的，克里莫夫是通过调整原RD33的4级风扇性能实现的，而WS13则是通过更换风扇实现的。原本计划安排WS13以这个新风扇的模式通过定型，但因为是纯外销型号，100%国产化过程非常缓慢，定型工作从90年代末期一直拖到2015年。

　　虽然定型工作因为国产化比例问题不顺利，但是对发动机的研究并没有停下来，第二步工作是采用一个与俄罗斯合作全新设计的低压涡轮，新的低压涡轮工作温度可以提高70度，工作效率也比原涡轮高，使用这个涡轮可以进一步发挥新三级风扇的潜力，据悉，这个涡轮其实也是克里莫夫现在应用在RD33MK上的，更换了新低压涡轮以后，发动机最大推力进步到91.1KN，发动机实验2002年开始。

　　这个实验何时完成的，目前没有公开报道，但是中航为了努力让FC1成为替换强5的中国空军轻型多用途战斗机，于2004年送报的的资料中，FC1的性能是外挂5.5吨，发动机推力91.1KN。由于作战思想和需求的变化，中国空军转用JH7替代强5，原规划的轻型多用途战斗机取消。中航技随后向海外用户推销这个方案，巴基斯坦同意接受这个方案，但是不愿意为此投资进行研究，他们更愿意把有限的经费放到航电系统的升级上去，作为阶段化升级，FC1仅在目前阶段将外挂从3.8提高到4.5吨。

　　由于是研发合作，克里莫夫实际上接受了中国的方案，因此也采纳了三级风扇方案，推出了RD33MKM，目前尚未有装机对象，但是可以随时供客户选择，搭配在米格35上。接下来的改进要涉及核心机了，难度倍增，最先计划改进的是燃烧室，原RD33的燃烧室设计太古老，贫油富燃到最后燃烧时效率偏低，因此一直有比较浓的黑烟，这已经成为RD33的标志，新设计的燃烧室能彻底改变这个问题，并让燃气温度分布更加稳定均匀，燃烧室的修改并不能提升推力，但是可以大幅度改善油耗和发动机寿命。

　　于此同时，单晶涡轮叶片替代原定向凝固的涡轮叶片，这允许涡轮工作温度提高50-70度，发动机推力可以达到93-94KN，这其中燃烧室的工作在中国完成，高压涡轮的工作在俄罗斯完成，首台推力达到94KN的发动机在2008年进行台架试车，这个推力的型号克里莫夫命名为RD93MKN。

　　我国在2014年的珠海航展上展出了FC31隐身战斗机，其希望搭配的发动机就是推力9500KG的中等推力发动机，这个发动机的信心基础便是来源于WS13和RD33之间往来不断的持续研发。

　　仅仅走到这里，浴火重生之路才走了一半，1996年，624重新设计了中推的高压压气机，将7级压气机减少一级，变为6级压气机，核心机转速从14000转提高到17000转，压气机不仅性能没有下降，反而还有提升，重新设计的轴系改变了远RD33落后的架构，发动机变得更短，总长度会减小到4米以内，同时核心机引气流量增大，使用单晶叶片的高压涡轮冷却方案也有所改变，冷却能力从350度提高到480度，涡轮前从1600K提高到1800K。

　　搭配重新设计的加力燃烧段，至此，整台发动机从头到尾都和原来的RD33没有一点相似之处了，发动机完完全全成为一种全新的发动机，发动机推力从96KN到111KN之间可选，发动机推重比也从最初RD33的6.6提高到8.6，这部分的实验目前还处于保密阶段，合作对象也从克里莫夫增加了一个伙伴，乌克兰的进步设计局。

　　尽管没有明确的装机对象，中等推力发动机对我国的重要性还是异常的高，未来一大批无人飞行器都需要这个推力级别的发动机，而WS12到WS13这样艰难的发展路线，也是为我国发展航空发动机提供了一个新的发展思路，我国航发最缺乏的是从技术研究转为工程应用这个环节，而克里莫夫的合作，其实是在教育和引导我国航发如何实现工程化和实用化，这对我国目前的现状能起到决定性的作用，WS13整个项目国家投入经费非常少，如果能借鸡下蛋，借壳重生，所有运筹帷幄的人堪称国之英杰。但是，路行百里半九十，WS13到现在还远远称不上成功了，真的能把它一步一步走完，走踏实，走出一个结果来，才是真正的涅盘。

 

[Asoka]

I have heard of a WS-12 somewhere ... I don't remember anything about a catapult engine but I'm sure the WS-12 is an actual engine.


Are you for real? And I thought you finally came to the realization that the J-20 was not initially tested with the 240kN+ WS-15 after all these years ...

1. "I have heard of a WS-12 somewhere ... I don't remember anything about a catapult engine but I'm sure the WS-12 is an actual engine."

In this picture, it clearly stated "XS-10 弹用发动机", and "XS-12 弹用发动" . "弹用" means Catapult.

It also mentioned a "XS-13E 发动机", but no mention of Catapult. I don't know what is that.

Prior to this leak, I don't even know there is are WS-12/13 engines. I just saw the pictures of J-20 equipped with two different WS-10 like engines.

Neither do I realize J-20 was testing two engines designed to be catapult off an Aircraft Carrier.

Why PLAAF needs two engines for the PLAAN's J-20, I have no idea. And I have no idea, why China won't stick with WS-15 and just navalized it.

I suspect the pictures of the J-20 with WS-10/12 engines are actually quite old, at least, several years old, but they have just leaked them in 2018. And the two WS-10/12 engines are improvements.


2. Are you for real? And I thought you finally came to the realization that the J-20 was not initially tested with the 240kN+ WS-15 after all these years.

I did not contradicted myself.

I have said J-20 was flying with an early version of WS-15 from day one, and this engine, with AL-31 like nozzle petals, has 3D TVC and at least 210kn of thrust.

Now, from this Leak, we know China is also developing a newer WS-15 engine, with 12 nozzle petals. It is probably the mass production version.

This Engine has the status of "少量批试制", "low number testing production".

As for Maximum Thrust, I won't be surprised that it has 240KN. There is something amazing about this newer WS-15 engine, that PLAAF is willing to wait for it, before commencing mass production of J-20.

Could it be the engine with the code name "珠峰" or Mt. Everest, that we talked about 2 years ago?

 

[Figaro]

I have said J-20 was flying with an early version of WS-15 from day one, and this engine, with AL-31 like nozzle petals, has 3D TVC and at least 210kn of thrust.

 

[Ultima Thule]

1. "I have heard of a WS-12 somewhere ... I don't remember anything about a catapult engine but I'm sure the WS-12 is an actual engine."

In this picture, it clearly stated "XS-10 弹用发动机", and "XS-12 弹用发动" . "弹用" means Catapult.

It also mentioned a "XS-13E 发动机", but no mention of Catapult. I don't know what is that.

Prior to this leak, I don't even know there is are WS-12/13 engines. I just saw the pictures of J-20 equipped with two different WS-10 like engines.

Neither do I realize J-20 was testing two engines designed to be catapult off an Aircraft Carrier.

Why PLAAF needs two engines for the PLAAN's J-20, I have no idea. And I have no idea, why China won't stick with WS-15 and just navalized it.

I suspect the pictures of the J-20 with WS-10/12 engines are actually quite old, at least, several years old, but they have just leaked them in 2018. And the two WS-10/12 engines are improvements.


2. Are you for real? And I thought you finally came to the realization that the J-20 was not initially tested with the 240kN+ WS-15 after all these years.

I did not contradicted myself.

I have said J-20 was flying with an early version of WS-15 from day one, and this engine, with AL-31 like nozzle petals, has 3D TVC and at least 210kn of thrust.

Now, from this Leak, we know China is also developing a newer WS-15 engine, with 12 nozzle petals. It is probably the mass production version.

This Engine has the status of "少量批试制", "low number testing production".

As for Maximum Thrust, I won't be surprised that it has 240KN. There is something amazing about this newer WS-15 engine, that PLAAF is willing to wait for it, before commencing mass production of J-20.

Could it be the engine with the code name "珠峰" or Mt. Everest, that we talked about 2 years ago?

Stop it your fantasy of yours may be you are confusing with catapult system with jet engine, we want a solid proof not some screenshots by you, and there is no evidence that J-20 is flying with WS-15 from day one and its thrust of 240 kn you need to know balance in between thrust and weight for J-20, if this not necessary according to you then why Chinese engineers and scientists not consider Chinese rocket engine from CZ-5 with thrust of 77000 lbs for J-20, get out of your falsehood kid

 

[Asoka]

Yes, keep banging your head on the wall. The Truth is not going away.

It is more than absurd that J-20 was flying with an AL-31 engine, and still is.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Yes, keep banging your head on the wall. The Truth is not going away.

It is more than absurd that J-20 was flying with an AL-31 engine, and still is.

Yes we all believes early J-20 was flying with AL-31 and now WS-10 but not WS-15, if you provide concrete proofs/sources/links none believes you here, and engine development fields is not that easy that you thinks, and China is quite new in development on engine from scratch, stop your nonsense screen shot presentation please

 

[Deino]

Yes we all believes early J-20 was flying with AL-31 and now WS-10 but not WS-15, if you provide concrete proofs/sources/links none believes you here, and engine development fields is not that easy that you thinks, and China is quite new in development on engine from scratch, stop your nonsense screen shot presentation please

You exactly nailed it: in his eyes we are all only stupid "believers" since he is the only one, who "knows".

 

[Asoka]

Clearly ws15 is in testing, far from entering service. Ws19 would follow the ws15.

Correction.

The current (second) version of WS-15 on J-20 is in low serial production, just like the J-20.
The newer (third) WS-15 with three layers of nozzle petals is in the testing phase. This is the mass production version, I believe.

"since he is the only one, who "knows". "

That nails it, Mr. Deino.

Thanks for your (back-hand) compliment.

 

[GeHAC]

1. "I have heard of a WS-12 somewhere ... I don't remember anything about a catapult engine but I'm sure the WS-12 is an actual engine."

In this picture, it clearly stated "XS-10 弹用发动机", and "XS-12 弹用发动" . "弹用" means Catapult.

It also mentioned a "XS-13E 发动机", but no mention of Catapult. I don't know what is that.

Prior to this leak, I don't even know there is are WS-12/13 engines. I just saw the pictures of J-20 equipped with two different WS-10 like engines.

Neither do I realize J-20 was testing two engines designed to be catapult off an Aircraft Carrier.

Why PLAAF needs two engines for the PLAAN's J-20, I have no idea. And I have no idea, why China won't stick with WS-15 and just navalized it.

I suspect the pictures of the J-20 with WS-10/12 engines are actually quite old, at least, several years old, but they have just leaked them in 2018. And the two WS-10/12 engines are improvements.


2. Are you for real? And I thought you finally came to the realization that the J-20 was not initially tested with the 240kN+ WS-15 after all these years.

I did not contradicted myself.

I have said J-20 was flying with an early version of WS-15 from day one, and this engine, with AL-31 like nozzle petals, has 3D TVC and at least 210kn of thrust.

Now, from this Leak, we know China is also developing a newer WS-15 engine, with 12 nozzle petals. It is probably the mass production version.

This Engine has the status of "少量批试制", "low number testing production".

As for Maximum Thrust, I won't be surprised that it has 240KN. There is something amazing about this newer WS-15 engine, that PLAAF is willing to wait for it, before commencing mass production of J-20.

Could it be the engine with the code name "珠峰" or Mt. Everest, that we talked about 2 years ago?

弹用 means 'ammunition used', not catapult