The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[C130]

The only combat planes that are available fully mature and able to match the Rafale are as follows

F22 Raptor............. SIMPOLY NOT FOR SALE
Euro Fighter Typhoon. ....Estimated cost $140 million
F15 silent Eagle (being purchased by Saudi Air Force for $200 million each)

The other combat plans that are available but would be slightly inferior are

F18 Super hornet @ $130 million
SU35 Flankers $85 million each
F16/60 as per UAE version with AESA radars $ 90m each
Gripen NG $100m each


To be brutally honest anything else and you guys are pissing in the wind .............. On other words lip stick on a pig

J10 inferior to even F16/52

J20
PAK FA
J31

The last 3 are in development stages only ie only 3 or 4 prototypes in existence big question marks over engines radars wea;ons mix and at least a decade away from exports .... LET ME REPEAT J20/J31 may enter service with Russia or China in 5 0r 6 years BUT you can add several more years before they start to export ie 2025 because the developer nations need time to introduce production lines , spare parts chains , doictrine , training.


INDIA DID THEIR HOME WORK thoroughly PAF will struggle for many years to find a suitable alternatives that can toe to toe with the rafale

F18 Super Hornet $130 million
Silent Eagle $200 million

 

[The Eagle]

yea kill him he edited my post

Lol..... That was defcon level 0.75

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Whatever the issues maybe with Rafale as per OP, PAF still has to get past about 270 strong force of Sukhoi30MKIs. Also Upgraded Mirage2000-5 with MICA BVRAAM & MIG29 UPGs. Hell Mirage & Migs alone are a formidable force to recon with against F16s of PAF.
Rafales will give IAF the edge needed against PAF & numerically superior PLAAF for the next dacade or so. I hope everything turns out to be well & good for IAF. In the end, in todays warfare, Air superiority & air dominance is the overwhelmingly deciding factor.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Thankfully air combat is no longer as stratified where an aircraft's weight or range are decisive aspects in all scenarios.

Yes, the Rafale is a threat, but the key to addressing that threat rests more in acquiring specific technologies and subsystems than any particular fighter platform. In fact, one inducts a new fighter platform to introduce new technology; but the democratization or direct accessibility of that technology has made that a less frequent need.

For example, the "natural" counter to the Rafale would be the Typhoon, but why? Well, one would point to the radar, electronic warfare/countermeasures, munitions compatibility, etc.

Pakistan currently can't bankroll the Typhoon (not without a third party to extend a loan or line-of-credit anyways), so it'll need to pull the valuable technology and plug it into the JF-17 via the Block-III.

The JF-17 Block-III - which is to have an AESA radar, HMD/S, updated ECM/EW, and next-gen munitions - is not going to be superior to the Rafale, but it can be a threat.

For example, a solid ECM/EW suite would enable the JF-17 Block-III to have a credible shot at jamming an incoming BVRAAM. Yes, the Meteor is a beast of a missile, but layers of jamming - i.e. stand-off jamming from a pod, jamming from an integrated suite, and perhaps even jamming from a BriteCloud-like decoy, and then chaffs, add to the chances of a Meteor failing.

If the AESA radar on the JF-17 is relatively good - i.e. boasting a lot of range relative to the fighter platform - then a next-gen munition in the same general league as the Meteor can give the Rafale a run. Of course, the same layers of jamming on the Rafale would negate our missiles too. And then you're in a dogfight scenario, and again, HMD/S and HOBS AAM are the essential parts.

This doesn't entirely alleviate the value of another fighter platform.

A big fighter such as the Su-35 can house a relatively high output radar, perhaps in excess of 250km (or higher on older less power-hungry radar tech). If there were 2 Su-35s covering a flight of 6 JF-17 Block-IIIs, then those Su-35s can serve as not only top long-range cover (i.e. by locking and firing on Rafales and Su-30MKIs earlier on, alleviating pressure off the Thunders), but maybe even as a quasi-AEW whereby their radar feed can be fed to the Thunder.

But this is less of an essential aspect than actually having a high-tech mainstay fighter - i.e. Block-III - and the accompanying next-gen munitions. The subsystems for the Thunder and next-gen munitions ought to take priority above any off-the-shelf purchase, IMHO.

 

[banvanaxl]

Its not only about the numbers but about the capabilities. US doesn't have much of F-22s but the capabilities that those platforms possess outmatch any other fleet. Mig-29s/Mig-21s are no way as capable as Rafeales are. The important thing is that now sooner of later, IAF will have the cutting edge platform in their hands.


Expensive. yes might be. You shouldn't expect a technologically advanced aircraft to have the costs of Mig-21. This is the most stupid thing to assume. And furthermore, any new platform needs new infrastructure so yes costs are higher but necessary for having advanced and added capabilities.

Like what?


TEJAS is a different class. Its LCA, not MMCRA. Rafales will replace the Mig-29s. LCA will be more centered at Migs and Jaguars.

Probably a saner Choice. Indians have always been dismal at "Make in India" but would that be a sane thing to keep delaying the procurement if this dream is not going to be realized?


Eurofighter needs money, India ditching Typhoon wouldn't help BAE falling in love with PAF for sure, unless PAF has any plans for procuring Typhoon. But Typhoon is more apt in A2A than being a true multi-role fighter.

I don't think so. All these fighters were first tested by IAF and then only those would have been selected which would have met the minimum requirements. Rafale isn't by any mean an average fighter. Its Young, its potent and it certainly had proven itself in new war theaters



Bribes are always a part of business. Even in Pakistan many procurements have been marred by bribes (Agosta for example). So its a business as usual in most of the defence procurement. Militarymen and Politicians are like Doctors which the Medical Reps (Defence Companies) have to bribe to make a sell.

Rather than downplaying the procurement like you did I hope the people at our AHQ not as stupid to undermine a good platform landing in our neighborhood.

Thank you for being candid even at the cost of being ridiculed by your countrymen.

You sir, have earned our respect.

 

[Mustang06]

Its makes no sense for PAF to procure 4.5 gen fighters as hopefully within a decade the region will witness deployment of 5th gen fighters. With China and it's J20 and most probably IAF with PAK-FA. IMHO PAF should invest in 5th gen fighters ahich will give it definitive edge over IAF.

 

[SBD-3]

Can Pakistan produce it's own Air to Air missiles?

What's the point of producing an A2A missile at home when you can have it with ToT or buy better ones without much restrictions, at least from China.

Adding inflation to an already inflated price, the way to do good business french style.

Inflation in europe is about 1-2% YoY for last many years and is expected to stay this way until the slowdown goes away. French have always been selling goodies at higher price tag but consider this that then don't put strings on whatever they sell. Now consider US whose military sales are A)Consider regional dynamics B)Contain certain strings attached. French sold IAF the mirages but when Israelis, facing troubles, tried to reverse engineer Mirages, they simply decided to just look the other way. Similarly for Pakistan, you havent heard French complaining or meddling in any of modifications that PAF has been doing with Mirages. And now consider this against what PAF has procured from China, A)You pay the price tag B)You pay the interest cost on paying back the loan which is in the tune of 6-10% PA. One way or another, the selling country compensates herself be it higher price, strings or interest bearing "Soft loans".

Whatever the issues maybe with Rafale as per OP, PAF still has to get past about 270 strong force of Sukhoi30MKIs. Also Upgraded Mirage2000-5 with MICA BVRAAM & MIG29 UPGs. Hell Mirage & Migs alone are a formidable force to recon with against F16s of PAF.
Rafales will give IAF the edge needed against PAF & numerically superior PLAAF for the next dacade or so. I hope everything turns out to be well & good for IAF. In the end, in todays warfare, Air superiority & air dominance is the overwhelmingly deciding factor.

IAF should at least forget about dealing with PLAAF. PLAAF in next decade would be a force capable of muscling USAF. IAF wouldn't have the ability to challenge PLAAF. To stretch IAF further China would simply sell some more goodies to PAF to up the ante. Keep one thing cystal clear, PAF doesn't need to strike deep in India and India can not risk placing all of her assets on her western border. All PAF will aim to achieve is to paralyze the indian FOBs and target targets near Dehli. For more deeper strikes, Missiles will be used not the PAF. War is not a video game

 

[mirage]

By this logic, any army procurement by any nuclear power is worthless.

Can someone better informed explain how true this is? I always thought SU30s were much more competent.

raja bhai aap sun lo na sabki kya farak pardta hai (*) ! 99.5 % of the comments here are made to prove points based on perception one have . i always read and regard the points made by pakistani and Bharatiya members who have special tags assigned to them as there is reason behind that assigning . BTW i dont understand how pakistan can celebrate if Bharat gets rafale from france as will add to the strength of the air-force ( no rafale is better than rafale in the indian airforce ? is what i perceive from the title of the post ) .

(*) no pun intended

 

[dani958]

i dont think its game changer game changer will be bomber like b 2 or b 21 or f 22

 

[.]

Just Upgrade your SAM systems and bring in work on the Ukrainian Grom contribute to its development and there you go.
Blow those rafaels outa the sky before they launch those meteors or whatever BVR's they are.
Simple,Detect and neutralize the Rafael if its such a big threat at a range,Which I don't think it is

 

[royalharris]

i dont think its game changer game changer will be bomber like b 2 or b 21 or f 22

take it too serious! rafael? game changer?

 

[Agent_47]

Over 62% of PAF jets are unfit - and they dare to challenge the IAF

http://www.defencenews.in/article/O...fit---and-they-dare-to-challenge-the-IAF-8378

Who is hangar queen now @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 ?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Over 62% of PAF jets are unfit - and they dare to challenge the IAF

http://www.defencenews.in/article/O...fit---and-they-dare-to-challenge-the-IAF-8378

Who is hangar queen now @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 ?

Quite a tall claim and no evidence to prove it.

 

[Sergi]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

with due respect it sound like more of a wish than analysis

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

"The purpose of the induction" and the "now decade" long strategy of IAF is to replace specific purpose ACs with multipurpose ACs. 36 isn't a final number but still 36 ACs of that caliber can handle job of 100 Migs. You can compare the capabilities by yourself

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

Partially Right on first part. Expensive YES. Second part Indian economy isn't at stall. It's growing so even if by 1 percent per year the amount it would add is huge

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

Like what ??? I fail to see Pak having any procurement to counter Rafale. And even if you have any don't you need the time too realize the capabilities of new AC ??? Or F-16 is the ans

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

More of a wish. LCAs are coming 120 on order. May or may not exceed the number but it will be there. So will be Rafale and it's not going to be just 36 pieces. It will increase also. Requirement are far more than that

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

If ever there is a panic then you will see F-16 line up and running in India and filling the numbers in less than 2 years. It's not happening so IAF isn't in panic mode. They are just not happy about the situation in case of double front.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

You think BAE is sitting out ???

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

I will avoid comment on this point as there is nothing to say that I already haven't said. Just a wish nothing more

 

[dani958]

refael is like the f 15 f 16 i dont think he is better