The illicit wine-makers of Pakistan's north

[A.P. Richelieu]

Yes, idol worship is unforgivable, if maintained until death:

[40:66] Say, "I have been enjoined from worshiping the idols you worship beside GOD, when the clear revelations came to me from my Lord. I was commanded to submit to the Lord of the universe."

And yes, disregarding God's words is forgivable if the person is truly repentant. But that does not necessarily make the wording any less strong in the context of intoxicants because I have contrasted it with other abominable acts like idol worship and homosexuality where the same wording has been used - such acts are considered an abomination and are also prohibited, so we can assume that any other thing that is considered an abomination is also prohibited. A believer with clarity of thought will accept it for what it is and not question it further. It is an abomination of the devil....can it get any more clearer than that? Is a believer still going to go and disregard the word of God when it has explicitly been said to AVOID IT? Did you forget the part where verse 5:90 has intoxicants and altars of idol worship mentioned in the same line as abominations and we're told to avoid them?

[Quran 5:90] O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed."

We can also argue that the word "Avoid" is quite strong. When it is said to AVOID something, you steer clear of it - so it does not give room to the argument that "a little is okay and not sinful." Even a little is sinful, if you are aware of God's command. But God is merciful, and if he sees that a person is truly repentant, then such sins can be forgiven, provided you don't keep making the mistake:

[4:18] Not acceptable is the repentance of those who commit sins until death comes to them, then say, "Now I repent." Nor is it acceptable from those who die as disbelievers. For these, we have prepared a painful retribution.

No, I beg to disagree.
If the Qur'an told You to avoid leaning too far out, when You are in a high-rise building,
it is because it is safer for You not to lean out.
You cannot draw the conclusion, that leaning out is committing a sin.
If the Qur'an had a statement that You should avoid leaning out and worship idols,
it still would not mean that leaning out becomes a sin, just good advice.

The banning of Idol worship is clarified in many places in the Qur'an.
Not so for intoxicants. The threat is that you may be less successful
which noone disagrees with.
That does not make it a punishable sin, just good advice.

If the unwanted side effects does not occur, and the person is successful in life,
because his behaviour is always considerate to his fellow man,
it would be very strange to punish him.

You make the assumption that all creations of the Devil cause immediate harm.
Is there anything in the Qur'an that supports that view?

It is very unlikely that such trickery will work for the Devil, since it will become unpopular rather fast.
For a trick to work, it must be seen to have positive effect, until the trap slams shut.

Not drinking alcohol at all is a strategy which eliminates such a trap, thats all.
It is good advice for any alcoholic.

If You drink alcohol and harm people while under influence, you commit a sin,
but if you drink alcohol and otherwise are behaving correctly, what is the problem.
Satan's plan simply failed, and he has been defeated.

 

[insight-out]

No, I beg to disagree.
If the Qur'an told You to avoid leaning too far out, when You are in a high-rise building,
it is because it is safer for You not to lean out.
You cannot draw the conclusion, that leaning out is committing a sin.
If the Qur'an had a statement that You should avoid leaning out and worship idols,
it still would not mean that leaning out becomes a sin, just good advice.

The banning of Idol worship is clarified in many places in the Qur'an.
Not so for intoxicants. The threat is that you may be less successful
which noone disagrees with.
That does not make it a punishable sin, just good advice.

If the unwanted side effects does not occur, and the person is successful in life,
because his behaviour is always considerate to his fellow man,
it would be very strange to punish him.

You make the assumption that all creations of the Devil cause immediate harm.
Is there anything in the Qur'an that supports that view?

It is very unlikely that such trickery will work for the Devil, since it will become unpopular rather fast.
For a trick to work, it must be seen to have positive effect, until the trap slams shut.

Not drinking alcohol at all is a strategy which eliminates such a trap, thats all.
It is good advice for any alcoholic.

If You drink alcohol and harm people while under influence, you commit a sin,
but if you drink alcohol and otherwise are behaving correctly, what is the problem.
Satan's plan simply failed, and he has been defeated.

Your arguments seem to be based upon whether the Qur'an expressly forbids alcohol or not. But the Qur'an is not the only source of law in Islam. There is also the Sunnah of the Prophet, Qiyas, and Ijma'. In order to derive laws, scholars have to attain mastery in a number of subjects including language, hadith, exegesis, law, among others. The field is called Islamic Jurisprudence.

Getting into a debate about whether something is permissible or prohibited, a sin, a punishable crime, etc. on an internet forum is absolutely inane. So I will refrain from doing so. If you really wish to delve into this, then go and do some reading and refer to recognized scholars in the field, not some pseudo-intellectuals who engage in polemics.

 

[Solomon2]

the Qur'an is not the only source of law in Islam. There is also -

Am I the only one here who read Arabian Nights? Muslims drinking wine was a part in several of its stories.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

No, I beg to disagree.
If the Qur'an told You to avoid leaning too far out, when You are in a high-rise building,
it is because it is safer for You not to lean out.
You cannot draw the conclusion, that leaning out is committing a sin.
If the Qur'an had a statement that You should avoid leaning out and worship idols,
it still would not mean that leaning out becomes a sin, just good advice.

The banning of Idol worship is clarified in many places in the Qur'an.
Not so for intoxicants. The threat is that you may be less successful
which noone disagrees with.
That does not make it a punishable sin, just good advice.

If the unwanted side effects does not occur, and the person is successful in life,
because his behaviour is always considerate to his fellow man,
it would be very strange to punish him.

You make the assumption that all creations of the Devil cause immediate harm.
Is there anything in the Qur'an that supports that view?

It is very unlikely that such trickery will work for the Devil, since it will become unpopular rather fast.
For a trick to work, it must be seen to have positive effect, until the trap slams shut.

Not drinking alcohol at all is a strategy which eliminates such a trap, thats all.
It is good advice for any alcoholic.

If You drink alcohol and harm people while under influence, you commit a sin,
but if you drink alcohol and otherwise are behaving correctly, what is the problem.
Satan's plan simply failed, and he has been defeated.

The problem with religion. All religions is that they are belief systems. Belief and faith require you to eject any reason or logic. That is qualification you have to meet in accepting any religion. It is like millions believing something becomes real because it has been unquestiongly accepted as such by so many for so long. Those fantastic tales of Red Sea parting would be stuff of tales told at the local mental asylum then any sane human discourse.

Bottom line no point in reasoning with something that has not been reasoned in the first place. I have had many futile discussions and wasted lot of time until accepting the reality that nothing is going to change anytime soon.

and in Pakistan illegal liquor is available everywhere. Regular headlines of people drinking contaminated liquor leading to death figure in Pakistani media. Smoking Hash is common as smoking cigs in some parts of Pakistan. For weird reason that is done in the open and almost accepted.

Let's hope it does not take 350 years for the Muslim world to catch up with reality and logic like Catholic Church did when it apologized to Galileo by saying "you were right".

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

My friend; i dont understand what are you referring to? I quote Iqbal in his Shikwa where he tells of the darkness and corruption that exists in the muslim community 'that even a jew would be ashamed of'. I know of many many moslems who smoke ganja and drink beer because the law states 'wine' is not permissible. Similarly i know of many jews who will eat pork similar to many many arab moslems I have sat on the same table where they were eating pork and yet would fast during Ramadhan.
I am pointing it is a morale question and so please dont label us - all laws are man made and it is ultimately that we are all humans and it is a question of internal strength if you will not drink or eat non permissible stuff.
I have seen many many Pakistan/Arab moslem ladies in Botswana who would at a gathering in Presidents hotel pick from same plate cold meats where pork/beef is kept side by side; another interesting was spaggetti with polish sausage - I told these ladies not to eat these as it contains questionable meat - to my shock they still took the spagetti minus the meat where as I would not touch any of this and stuck to salad.

I was answering your statement of, people should be left to their vices, hence my reply of wrath of Allah on Bani Israil as they abandoned commanding people to Allah and forbidding what has been commanded. Banu Israil is a lesson for us Muslims and our actions in this day and age are causing our humiliation as we've deviated from what Allah has commanded.

As you've mentioned the haram that you have witnessed from those who call themselves Muslims and yet are hypocrites in their actions. You've mentioned the Jews and yet you're not aware of the prophecy of Muhammad as'salaathu was'salaam of Muslims:

Abu Sa‘eed, may Allaah be pleased with him, that the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, said: “You will certainly follow the ways of those who came before you hand span by hand span, cubit by cubit, to the extent that if they enter the hole of a lizard, you will enter it too.’ We said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, (do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?’ He said: ‘Who else?’” [Al-Bukhaari and Muslim]

By Allah the Jews are the most dangerous to us because of our closeness of religion.

Your arguments seem to be based upon whether the Qur'an expressly forbids alcohol or not. But the Qur'an is not the only source of law in Islam. There is also the Sunnah of the Prophet, Qiyas, and Ijma'. In order to derive laws, scholars have to attain mastery in a number of subjects including language, hadith, exegesis, law, among others. The field is called Islamic Jurisprudence.

Getting into a debate about whether something is permissible or prohibited, a sin, a punishable crime, etc. on an internet forum is absolutely inane. So I will refrain from doing so. If you really wish to delve into this, then go and do some reading and refer to recognized scholars in the field, not some pseudo-intellectuals who engage in polemics.

Bhai jaan, the quran is very clear on alcohol being haram. I have already given him the verses and yet he denies. Lakum dena kum waliya din. They have their religion and we have ours! This guy is not learned in Islamic jurisprudence and Classical Arabic and yet comes on here and is making a fool of himself. How many people are going to sit here and teach him assool of verses and how the language was used to explain prohibitions. If he is sincere he will research and go to a Mufti.

You are still avoiding answering my simple question: Please tell me if the Prophet PBUH said prayers in many different ways or not? If he did, then it means that there are many ways to offer prayers. After all, if there were only one way acceptable to Allah for praying to Him, He would have mentioned it in the Quran, or at least commanded His beloved Prophet PBUH to say his prayers only one way.

All your pontification falls flat unless you answer this question first.

Read my whole post and I've answered you two times already. I will copy the post below and highlighted in BOLD. I have to ask you now who are you? You are definitely not SYED ALI HAIDER which is a Muslim name. I have met people who are ignorant of their religion, but not to this point. This is NOT ignorance, but Kufr! We have Hindus pretending to be Muslims, so now tell us your true identity?

I have already given you a detail explanation of ways of namaz primarily from the Shafi and Hanafi schools that nabi as'salaathu was'salaam did. If you mean you want to invent your own way of doing namaz that nabi as'salaathu was'salaam did not do, then it WON'T be accepted by Allah.

Allah azwajal commanded nabi as'salaathu was'salaam to establish namaz 5 times and to do namaz the way Allah azwajal commanded. I am not going to repeat myself of the evidence for why rafadain came about as I've already mentioned it. The way to do namaz is one way and there is no difference of opinion on this. I gave you an example of the walking stick when nabi as'salaathu was'salaam used it in his old age and this becomes sunnah now. In the same way as the walking stick, circumstances relating to doing rafadain was established temporarily to expose the hypocrites. And then not carried on. The farid of namaaz of actions don't change.

I think i should ask you, do you know the faraid of namaaz actions? These are obligatory actions that have to be done otherwise namaz is not accepted. Rafadain is NOT an obligatory action in the namaz.

I trust this is much clearer now. My sincere advice is to go and learn about what makes a valid namaz and what actions in the namaz are obligatory.

 

[VCheng]

Read my whole post and I've answered you two times already.

But the Prophet Mohammad PBUH himself said prayers in many different ways, so how can there be only one way of the saying them? You have not answered this question at all.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

But the Prophet Mohammad PBUH himself said prayers in many different ways, so how can there be only one way of the saying them? You have not answered this question at all.

Again you did not read the whole post and please comprehend what is written.

 

[VCheng]

Again you did not read the whole post and please comprehend what is written.

Again, you refuse to answer the question. It is okay, your failure is evident.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Your arguments seem to be based upon whether the Qur'an expressly forbids alcohol or not. But the Qur'an is not the only source of law in Islam. There is also the Sunnah of the Prophet, Qiyas, and Ijma'. In order to derive laws, scholars have to attain mastery in a number of subjects including language, hadith, exegesis, law, among others. The field is called Islamic Jurisprudence.

Getting into a debate about whether something is permissible or prohibited, a sin, a punishable crime, etc. on an internet forum is absolutely inane. So I will refrain from doing so. If you really wish to delve into this, then go and do some reading and refer to recognized scholars in the field, not some pseudo-intellectuals who engage in polemics.

I am in no doubt that Humans can come up with the idea that Alcohol should be forbidden.
The "Prohibition" in the U.S. is well known.

It is very different if a scholar draws the conclusion that alcohol needs to be forbidden,
vs it is forbidden by God.

Either it can be documented that God has stated that it is forbidden, or it cannot.
So far, the "law" seems to be a man made invention.

 

[VCheng]

I am in no doubt that Humans can come up with the idea that Alcohol should be forbidden.
The "Prohibition" in the U.S. is well known.

It is very different if a scholar draws the conclusion that alcohol needs to be forbidden,
vs it is forbidden by God.

Either it can be documented that God has stated that it is forbidden, or it cannot.
So far, the "law" seems to be a man made invention.

It's okay. What Muslims actually do is far more revealing that what they claim, just the same as for any other religion's followers.

 

[denel]

I was answering your statement of, people should be left to their vices, hence my reply of wrath of Allah on Bani Israil as they abandoned commanding people to Allah and forbidding what has been commanded. Banu Israil is a lesson for us Muslims and our actions in this day and age are causing our humiliation as we've deviated from what Allah has commanded.

As you've mentioned the haram that you have witnessed from those who call themselves Muslims and yet are hypocrites in their actions. You've mentioned the Jews and yet you're not aware of the prophecy of Muhammad as'salaathu was'salaam of Muslims:

Abu Sa‘eed, may Allaah be pleased with him, that the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, said: “You will certainly follow the ways of those who came before you hand span by hand span, cubit by cubit, to the extent that if they enter the hole of a lizard, you will enter it too.’ We said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, (do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?’ He said: ‘Who else?’” [Al-Bukhaari and Muslim]

By Allah the Jews are the most dangerous to us because of our closeness of religion.



Bhai jaan, the quran is very clear on alcohol being haram. I have already given him the verses and yet he denies. Lakum dena kum waliya din. They have their religion and we have ours! This guy is not learned in Islamic jurisprudence and Classical Arabic and yet comes on here and is making a fool of himself. How many people are going to sit here and teach him assool of verses and how the language was used to explain prohibitions. If he is sincere he will research and go to a Mufti.



Read my whole post and I've answered you two times already. I will copy the post below and highlighted in BOLD. I have to ask you now who are you? You are definitely not SYED ALI HAIDER which is a Muslim name. I have met people who are ignorant of their religion, but not to this point. This is NOT ignorance, but Kufr! We have Hindus pretending to be Muslims, so now tell us your true identity?

I have already given you a detail explanation of ways of namaz primarily from the Shafi and Hanafi schools that nabi as'salaathu was'salaam did. If you mean you want to invent your own way of doing namaz that nabi as'salaathu was'salaam did not do, then it WON'T be accepted by Allah.

Allah azwajal commanded nabi as'salaathu was'salaam to establish namaz 5 times and to do namaz the way Allah azwajal commanded. I am not going to repeat myself of the evidence for why rafadain came about as I've already mentioned it. The way to do namaz is one way and there is no difference of opinion on this. I gave you an example of the walking stick when nabi as'salaathu was'salaam used it in his old age and this becomes sunnah now. In the same way as the walking stick, circumstances relating to doing rafadain was established temporarily to expose the hypocrites. And then not carried on. The farid of namaaz of actions don't change.

I think i should ask you, do you know the faraid of namaaz actions? These are obligatory actions that have to be done otherwise namaz is not accepted. Rafadain is NOT an obligatory action in the namaz.

I trust this is much clearer now. My sincere advice is to go and learn about what makes a valid namaz and what actions in the namaz are obligatory.

What BULLKAK are you spewing? What Allah and why us? Are you that stupid to believe this attrocious hatred which is being written?
All the prophets in the koran are jews and yet the same book makes them moslems and what better way to get precedence by condemning entire people. It is hipocracy sorry... this god is a god which has mood swings. One hand it is stated the people of book and asks for each moslem to have belief in them and then condemns jews..... amazing double standards.
Get a reality check and live in real life vs these spun verdicts which were written ultimately by men. Prophecys ... my foot.... it is the same shit that our mystics spew out etc.. just different smell but shit is shit.

Am I the only one here who read Arabian Nights? Muslims drinking wine was a part in several of its stories.

Absolutely was.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

What BULLKAK are you spewing? What Allah and why us? Are you that stupid to believe this attrocious hatred which is being written?
All the prophets in the koran are jews and yet the same book makes them moslems and what better way to get precedence by condemning entire people. It is hipocracy sorry... this god is a god which has mood swings. One hand it is stated the people of book and asks for each moslem to have belief in them and then condemns jews..... amazing double standards.
Get a reality check and live in real life vs these spun verdicts which were written ultimately by men.

The prophets were from the Sons Yaqub as'salaam. Books were to your nation and you rejected them. Prophets were sent to you and you killed some and disobeyed others. Musa as'salaam went to the mountain and your nation created the calf and turned back on to disbelief, after having cross the parted sea and seeing miracles with your own eyes.

However because of your disobedience Allah took away the prophet hood and the last Prophet Muhammad as'salaathu-was'salaam was not from them. We do not condemn you for you have condemned yourself by what your hands have earned.

Quran was sent by Allah...

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave, then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. Surah Al-Bakrah v 023

 

[Metanoia]

What is hadith in sharia terms?

Sir we must bear in mind that unlike the Koran, the Ahadiths are not divine and they are not infallible. There are variables which the Muslims should take into account, for instance the time period and the context of the ahadiths, the source of the ahadiths, the political dynamics at that time period etc.

Also how valid are the sources. Imagine in these modern times with all the technology we've at our disposal we are still duped with information asymmetry and sometimes clear cut falsehood (lies). The Ahadiths were compiled years after Mohammed's passing away narrated through not one but various chains. Logically what are the chances that how much of the stuff was watered down. There is a high possibility that there might have been various types of biases as well when the narrations, collections, and compilations were taking place (years after the passing away).

Ahadith are not divine, they're fallible and at best they're for a very specific time period sir. For instance even the second caliph and one of the closest confidant of Mohammed, Omar, made changes to the sharia code when he abolished chopping of the hand as the punishment in view of the current situation at that specific time.

The problem with religion. All religions is that they are belief systems. Belief and faith require you to eject any reason or logic. That is qualification you have to meet in accepting any religion. It is like millions believing something becomes real because it has been unquestiongly accepted as such by so many for so long. Those fantastic tales of Red Sea parting would be stuff of tales told at the local mental asylum then any sane human discourse.

Bottom line no point in reasoning with something that has not been reasoned in the first place. I have had many futile discussions and wasted lot of time until accepting the reality that nothing is going to change anytime soon.

Let's hope it does not take 350 years for the Muslim world to catch up with reality and logic like Catholic Church did when it apologized to Galileo by saying "you were right".

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[denel]

The prophets were from the Sons Yaqub as'salaam. Books were to your nation and you rejected them. Prophets were sent to you and you killed some and disobeyed others. Musa as'salaam went to the mountain and your nation created the calf and turned back on to disbelief, after having cross the parted sea and seeing miracles with your own eyes.

However because of your disobedience Allah took away the prophet hood and the last Prophet Muhammad as'salaathu-was'salaam was not from them. We do not condemn you for you have condemned yourself by what your hands have earned.

Quran was sent by Allah...

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave, then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. Surah Al-Bakrah v 023

No wonder why you are in the hell you have created.... again hate filled lectures with political mindset written by humans for serving their own purpose.. best way is to elevate's one divinity and make one's ideology worth following.. perfect logic for lunatics like ISIS

Use common sense and stop following sentences like a sheep. You are no different to the narrow minded fellow religous lunatics who cling to each word from the talmud again as one writer said, those are not laws but intepretations and discussions written by people and are fallible.

Like one fellow said.. Mohammed split to moon up and the line is still there. I am an amateur astronomer and offered to point the telescope to the moon so he could show me. This is similar to that and have no reality just myth.

 

[SQ8]

Some of the finest grapes in that region............ these people lack some modern techniques to give the product an edge, however, unique product nonetheless!

And before all of you go "Al-Haza-Haram", wine is not haram, it may not be preferred, nonetheless, not haram...... and let's not get into Ijtehad and stuff either, it's a moot point, there never has been an elected Mujtahid to begin with.

Za mara, you have just been declared Kafir(again) in the minds of around 80% Pakistanis reading this thread.