The illicit wine-makers of Pakistan's north

[angelandsoul]

I dont think I am morally superior to anyone or a better person! I commit sins every day and am fearful of the next life. I hope and pray for forgiveness! I never said we should bar everyone completely from exercising free right and drinking if they want to either!

To go Valhalla the consensus is one needs to dies in combat honourably or at the very least have been a great warrior!! And no pesky keyboard warriors dont count!

Alcohol is certainly not banned by 5:90...
5:90 just shows that it should be avoided, which is not a strong statement.
The Qur'an is supposed to be clear, and the Qur'an is clear about banning other things.

Do You find yourself morally superior to people drinking small amount of alcohol?
Please don't, or You be in trouble, as you say above.

I wont be going to Paradise, I will be going to Valhall.
Unlimited amounts of pork and beer and jolly company.

I dont even think I am better than alcoholics, drug addicts people who steal take bribes etc etc That is for GOD to decide. I have enough sins of my own to worry about anyone else

Alcohol is certainly not banned by 5:90...
5:90 just shows that it should be avoided, which is not a strong statement.
The Qur'an is supposed to be clear, and the Qur'an is clear about banning other things.

Do You find yourself morally superior to people drinking small amount of alcohol?
Please don't, or You be in trouble, as you say above.

I wont be going to Paradise, I will be going to Valhall.
Unlimited amounts of pork and beer and jolly company.

As it has been pointed out to you Alcohol was permissable to start off with then banned. Being a non muslim you wont understand how Islam works, Quran was delivered to the Prophet (PBUH) in sequence and at different times, and in many instances in direct relation to what was happening around muslims at the time.
So alcohol was allowed, then prohibited to perform prayers under the influence then banned completely.
The Quran also talks about killing pagans, it says to slay them where you find them! But this is not about all pagans, just the pagans of mecca who had broken a truce with muslims by starting a war against them! So it was allowed to unless they surrendered! But we know this from Hadeeth and sunna and historical context of Quran. Thats why we need the sayings of our Prophet to hand in hand with quran, and we do not believe it contradicts its self. If you want to argue semantics I suggest you goto a religious forum as you are no descending into trolling!
Without answering our points you just come up with new arguments or the same points over and over again, that is trolling mate!

 

[VCheng]

THE NOBLE Qur'an, Surah 30: Al Rum 17 "SO (GIVE) GLORY TO ALLAH, WHEN YE REACH EVENTIDE AND WHEN YE RISE IN THE MORNING;" 18 "YEA,TO HIM BE PRAISE, IN THE HEAVENS AND ON EARTH; AND IN THE LATE AFTERNOON AND WHEN THE DAY BEGINS TO DECLINE."

‘isha’
Soorat Hood, where THE ALMIGHTY says (interpretation of the meaning): “… and in some hours of the night…” [Hood 11:114]

Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Giving glory to Allah can be done in many ways.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Islam is not complete without following the Prophet. Thats why what is not mentioned in Quran is what we follow as practised by the Prophet PBUH.

Bhai-jan this is the point I'm trying to educate these people. Having studied aqeedah these people have no idea what they are saying is kufr! They are negating the second part of the Kalimah.

THE NOBLE Qur'an, Surah 30: Al Rum 17 "SO (GIVE) GLORY TO ALLAH, WHEN YE REACH EVENTIDE AND WHEN YE RISE IN THE MORNING;" 18 "YEA,TO HIM BE PRAISE, IN THE HEAVENS AND ON EARTH; AND IN THE LATE AFTERNOON AND WHEN THE DAY BEGINS TO DECLINE."

‘isha’
Soorat Hood, where THE ALMIGHTY says (interpretation of the meaning): “… and in some hours of the night…” [Hood 11:114]

Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've given you thanks because I like what you've quoted. Now Bhai Jan, tell me what does salaah mean in Arabic? It has two meaning; namaz and dua. Where did you get the understanding of the interpretation of these verses if it is not from the hadith? I've got the hadith interpretations to the verses as well.

Now show me where Allah says how to do namaaz?

 

[Metanoia]

Having studied aqeedah these people have no idea what they are saying is kufr! They are negating the second part of the Kalimah.

'lā ilāha illā -llāh, muḥammadur rasūlu -llāh

Negating the second part of Kalimah means denouncing Mohammed as the messenger of God. Sir the Kalimah only states and clarifies that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is it's messenger.

Who here has denounced Mohammed as the messenger of Allah?

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Okay, but please tell me if the Prophet PBUH said prayers in many different ways or not? If he did, then it means that there are many ways to offer prayers. After all, if there were only one way acceptable to Allah for praying to Him, He would have mentioned it in the Quran, or at least commanded His beloved Prophet PBUH to say his prayers only one way.

I have already given you a detail explanation of ways of namaz primarily from the Shafi and Hanafi schools that nabi as'salaathu was'salaam did. If you mean you want to invent your own way of doing namaz that nabi as'salaathu was'salaam did not do, then it WON'T be accepted by Allah.

Allah azwajal commanded nabi as'salaathu was'salaam to establish namaz 5 times and to do namaz the way Allah azwajal commanded. I am not going to repeat myself of the evidence for why rafadain came about as I've already mentioned it. The way to do namaz is one way and there is no difference of opinion on this. I gave you an example of the walking stick when nabi as'salaathu was'salaam used it in his old age and this becomes sunnah now. In the same way as the walking stick, circumstances relating to doing rafadain was established temporarily to expose the hypocrites. And then not carried on. The farid of namaaz of actions don't change.

I think i should ask you, do you know the faraid of namaaz actions? These are obligatory actions that have to be done otherwise namaz is not accepted. Rafadain is NOT an obligatory action in the namaz.

I trust this is much clearer now. My sincere advice is to go and learn about what makes a valid namaz and what actions in the namaz are obligatory.

'lā ilāha illā -llāh, muḥammadur rasūlu -llāh

Negating the second part of Kalimah means denouncing Mohammed as the messenger of God. Sir the Kalimah only states and clarifies that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is it's messenger.

Who here has denounced Mohammed as the messenger of Allah?

When a person rejects hadith (which is the actions, sayings of the nabi as'salaathu was'salaam) means rejects the second part of the kalima. These people are called ahal-qurania and are non-Muslims as per Islamic Scholars. However, on PDF we don't know them so they are ignorant of what they say and only a Mufti can give a fatwa on them after educating them and answering all their questions.

This is a VERY serious matter and they need to educate themselves Islamically on aqeedah, instead of worrying about if JF-17 blk3 will have this or that. Worry about things that will affect ''YOU'' in the hereafter.

 

[Metanoia]

When a person rejects hadith (which is the actions, sayings of the nabi as'salaathu was'salaam) means rejects the second part of the kalima.

According to who sir? Where is the proof of that from the Koran?

Perhaps it's your opinion, or opinion of various scholars....but sir how can you pass it on as a fact which should be accepted by everyone?

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

According to who sir? Where is the proof of that from the Koran?

Perhaps it's your opinion, or opinion of various scholars....but sir how can you pass it on as a fact which should be accepted by everyone?

You've already answered my question so you won't accept any scholars opinion.

What is hadith in sharia terms?
'Aisha (radi'Allahu anher) was once asked to describe the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and she replied that he was ‘the walking Quran’, as he was the Quran translated into action.

 

[Zibago]

The home made wine made from fresh grapes gives a good kick and tastes good too

Squashed by their super clean feet

 

[VCheng]

I trust this is much clearer now. My sincere advice is to go and learn about what makes a valid namaz and what actions in the namaz are obligatory.

You are still avoiding answering my simple question: Please tell me if the Prophet PBUH said prayers in many different ways or not? If he did, then it means that there are many ways to offer prayers. After all, if there were only one way acceptable to Allah for praying to Him, He would have mentioned it in the Quran, or at least commanded His beloved Prophet PBUH to say his prayers only one way.

All your pontification falls flat unless you answer this question first.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

As it has been pointed out to you Alcohol was permissable to start off with then banned.
Being a non muslim you wont understand how Islam works, Quran was delivered to the Prophet (PBUH) in sequence and at different times, and in many instances in direct relation to what was happening around muslims at the time.
So alcohol was allowed, then prohibited to perform prayers under the influence then banned completely.

I would be happy to change my mind, if you can show anything but 5:90 banning alcohol.
As for Valhalla, I'll sneak in while they are drunk .

 

[v9s]

You both and others like you - You people need to get your barometer right and understand the meaning of "Haram", haram as in forbidden, as in punishable offense. I don't know which version of Islam your kind follows, however, I follow the only version that I understand to be true till the ends of time, that can not be corrupted, that comes from The Holy Quran and established daily life activities of The Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH (As in Salat + Zakat + Judgements on record). Period. No 'so called' Sunnah that is derived from medieval methodology called the art of "Hadees writing" or whatever you want to call that compilation called saha-sitta. Don't worry, I've spent better part of my life understanding the proofs of concept behind it, and have come to a conclusion that ANYTHING that does not conform 100% to the Holy Quran, can not be true, and if a person can lie once (various authors of Hadees), they could and would have lied many times more as well, for example do you believe that in saha sitta, Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj states that "black dogs are a manifestation of evil in animal form, that need to be killed" the hadees being an authentic hadees..... do you really think that Prophet Muhammad PBUH ever ever ever said such a thing (as per your limited brain capacity)?

You people are nothing but automatons, where you people blindly follow pagan Arab mythology with a mixture of your local Pakistani culture (which in fact is Indian, by the way), attribute falsely to Prophet Muhammad PBUH, and label yourselves as true believers.

If you want to talk about the topic at hand, I can argue for days at end, but you people don't have the mental or moral competency to argue with me.

Way to jump the gun there. I do not consider hadith and sunnah as religious sources at all and only trust what is written in the Quran.

[5:90-91] O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed. The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?

[2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity: say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

God has asked us to avoid intoxicants (and yes, wine is considered an intoxicant - see verse 16:67). God considers it an abomination, you know what else God considers an abomination? Incest, sodomy and idol worship, among others.

God has similarly also stated in the Quran to avoid idol worship (i.e.the same injunction has been used for idol worship, as it has been used for intoxicants - how much clearer do you need it to be?):

[16:36] We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.

Any punishment in disregarding God's words will be dealt by God alone in the hereafter, not by mere mortals like me. You're free to take what you will from this.

 

[ZYXW]

Daffa karro.... sanno keee? It's up to Allah to show the righteous path to whomever He wishes and blind an entire race that he doesn't wish to enlighten, it's ALL entirely up to Him. Wisdom maybe equivalent to your combined life experiences over a lifetime or maybe a function of your IQ / grey matter and time, however, that necessarily doesn't equate to righteous behavior... think about it, if it were, then Abu Jahl would've retained his earlier laqab of Abu Hakkam.

Who am I to interfere in his divine judgements and destiny that he has written for these people. I don't have the moral authority to declare anyone of them a Momin or an Infidel.

Live and let live, the problem will only arise when someone puts a stone in my path.

There, placed a stone in your path

watchu going to do about it?!?

Lol, I knew where you were going to come from next.

Now for your understanding............ is Hadees the basis of understanding Sunnah and pillars of Islam? Or is the established doings of Prophet Muhammad PBUH Sunnah (let's say established facts as witnessed by first generation Muslims), or is Sunnah only what is narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmizi et al.

Peace and knowledge be with you. With this we conclude today's fatwa and Islam 101!

I missed the class professor, are there any make up sessions?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Way to jump the gun there. I do not consider hadith and sunnah as religious sources at all and only trust what is written in the Quran.

[5:90-91] O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed. The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?

[2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity: say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

God has asked us to avoid intoxicants (and yes, wine is considered an intoxicant - see verse 16:67). God considers it an abomination, you know what else God considers an abomination? Incest, sodomy and idol worship, among others.

God has similarly also stated in the Quran to avoid idol worship (i.e.the same injunction has been used for idol worship, as it has been used for intoxicants - how much clearer do you need it to be?):

[16:36] We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.

Any punishment in disregarding God's words will be dealt by God alone in the hereafter, not by mere mortals like me. You're free to take what you will from this.

And I see that the Qur'an gives the reason in 5:91 where intoxicants and hatred is said to
be part of a plan to create animosity and hatred amongs humans.

The resulting animosity and/or hatred is what is abherred.

Drunkenness and excessive gambling is not appreciated anywhere (except by Casino owners).
Consuming alcohol is always taking a risk.

In Sweden, you can only legally buy alcohol from the government stores,
and they are not open during weekends to reduce temptations.
Gambling is also restricted, but EU rules allow less restrictive countries to promote gambling here.

You claim that the word "avoid" is strong, but in 4:116 it says that idol worship is THE unforgivable sin,
and all other sins can be forgiven.
I do not think there is so strong wording as regards to intoxicants.
You can't therefore say that they rule is equivalent.

So far, noone has put up an argument that a little drinking/gambling is a big sin.
Messing up your or another persons life BECAUSE of the drinking and gambling certainly is.
And the fact that 5:90 warns you about it certainly makes the sin worse.

It is pretty clear that if you do not drink, or gamble it will not be causing animosity
or hatred, but it is possible to create animosity and hatred without them.

If a "muslim" kills someone for selling alcohol, who commits the greater sin?
The killer or the victim?

 

[v9s]

You claim that the word "avoid" is strong, but in 4:116 it says that idol worship is THE unforgivable sin,
and all other sins can be forgiven.
I do not think there is so strong wording as regards to intoxicants.
You can't therefore say that they rule is equivalent.

So far, noone has put up an argument that a little drinking/gambling is a big sin.
Messing up your or another persons life BECAUSE of the drinking and gambling certainly is.
And the fact that 5:90 warns you about it certainly makes the sin worse.

Yes, idol worship is unforgivable, if maintained until death:

[40:66] Say, "I have been enjoined from worshiping the idols you worship beside GOD, when the clear revelations came to me from my Lord. I was commanded to submit to the Lord of the universe."

And yes, disregarding God's words is forgivable if the person is truly repentant. But that does not necessarily make the wording any less strong in the context of intoxicants because I have contrasted it with other abominable acts like idol worship and homosexuality where the same wording has been used - such acts are considered an abomination and are also prohibited, so we can assume that any other thing that is considered an abomination is also prohibited. A believer with clarity of thought will accept it for what it is and not question it further. It is an abomination of the devil....can it get any more clearer than that? Is a believer still going to go and disregard the word of God when it has explicitly been said to AVOID IT? Did you forget the part where verse 5:90 has intoxicants and altars of idol worship mentioned in the same line as abominations and we're told to avoid them?

[Quran 5:90] O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed."

We can also argue that the word "Avoid" is quite strong. When it is said to AVOID something, you steer clear of it - so it does not give room to the argument that "a little is okay and not sinful." Even a little is sinful, if you are aware of God's command. But God is merciful, and if he sees that a person is truly repentant, then such sins can be forgiven, provided you don't keep making the mistake:

[4:18] Not acceptable is the repentance of those who commit sins until death comes to them, then say, "Now I repent." Nor is it acceptable from those who die as disbelievers. For these, we have prepared a painful retribution.

 

[denel]

Those brothers who can afford a camel, sure they do! Bhai-jan I have given you an extensive rulings from the Quran about obeying the nabi as'salaathu wa'salaam and there is NO DOUBT about the namaaz and how it is performed and number of times it is done in what times.

I can go on with further evidences from the quran to prove the importance of following the Nabi as'salaathu was'salaam, but it requires Eman and if someone doesn't have it then there is no point in wasting time. Hence, like the person from Norway on here trying to argue about Alcohol and yet tripping over the meaning of the verses.



This is one of the downfalls of Bani-Israil who were chosen above all nations, when they took their rabaniyeen as their Ela who made halal-haram and vice versa and allowed them people go astray.

My friend; i dont understand what are you referring to? I quote Iqbal in his Shikwa where he tells of the darkness and corruption that exists in the muslim community 'that even a jew would be ashamed of'. I know of many many moslems who smoke ganja and drink beer because the law states 'wine' is not permissible. Similarly i know of many jews who will eat pork similar to many many arab moslems I have sat on the same table where they were eating pork and yet would fast during Ramadhan.
I am pointing it is a morale question and so please dont label us - all laws are man made and it is ultimately that we are all humans and it is a question of internal strength if you will not drink or eat non permissible stuff.
I have seen many many Pakistan/Arab moslem ladies in Botswana who would at a gathering in Presidents hotel pick from same plate cold meats where pork/beef is kept side by side; another interesting was spaggetti with polish sausage - I told these ladies not to eat these as it contains questionable meat - to my shock they still took the spagetti minus the meat where as I would not touch any of this and stuck to salad.