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The great American betrayal

Removing barriers (I'm assuming on trade) won't be very difficult but what would you suggest is a reasonable accommodation of Pakistan on the Kashmir issue? I would be very interested in knowing your views & what is it that you seek that you believe is not damaging to India to grant.

in fact according to the 4 point formula the disputes is actually quiet smaller then what many people think, in fact it does not include the entire j&k ,& as per the four point formula it excludes the larger laddak,jammu & leh area keeping the Indian sensitivities in mind, thus it only includes the much smaller kashmir valley,siachen & sir creek thus making it easy for a salution & with strong political will from both sides some give & take can be worked out, it would benefit both the countries in fact if solved, it will give India "full access" to Afghanistan,Iran & the larger central Asian republics "unhindered", hey you guys know how difficult this transit issue for eg: north east through bd, here if these three mentioned areas of dispute are solved, you have a chance to get connected to west Asia with full access trucks,rail,lorries,pipelines you name it we will give it to you ! as i mentioned unhindered & full access, heck you can buy a bus/rail ticked from Delhi & go straight to Afghanistan,central Asian republics Iran & make love, send your trucks,lorries,trains full of Indian products straight from the factory & sell them all over central Asian republics ! import oil,gas pipelines no problem, just think now how much India's economy can gain from it & all India has to do is lets sit down talk & solve these issues i mean common think about it as i said the disputes are much smaller then what people generally think
 
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in fact according to the 4 point formula the disputes is actually quiet smaller then what many people think, in fact it does not include the entire j&k ,& as per the four point formula it excludes the larger laddak,jammu & leh area keeping the Indian sensitivities in mind, thus it only includes the much smaller kashmir valley,siachen & sir creek thus making it easy for a salution & with strong political will from both sides some give & take can be worked out, it would benefit both the countries in fact if solved, it will give India "full access" to Afghanistan,Iran & the larger central Asian republics "unhindered", hey you guys know how difficult this transit issue for eg: north east through bd, here if these three mentioned areas of dispute are solved, you have a chance to get connected to west Asia with full access trucks,rail,lorries,pipelines you name it we will give it to you ! as i mentioned unhindered & full access, heck you can buy a bus/rail ticked from Delhi & go straight to Afghanistan,central Asian republics Iran & make love, send your trucks,lorries,trains full of Indian products straight from the factory & sell them all over central Asian republics ! import oil,gas pipelines no problem, just think now how much India's economy can gain from it & all India has to do is lets sit down talk & solve these issues i mean common think about it as i said the disputes are much smaller then what people generally think

Without disagreing with anything you said, I still have no clear idea what the offer on the table is. Does it involve transfer of territory? I must point out that your point in trade is over pressed. No body negotiates a part of the country away merely because trade opportunities may be available. I'm not sure you will find many Indian takers for this line. We need to decide what is the "give & take" that you speak out. How much is "give" and what is the "take"?

The offers of transit while welcome (if possible in the circumstances that exists now, both in Pakistan & Afghanistan) are not something that will make India do what it does not feel like. As i said, we need to know the asking price of any deal. You have made general comments on the matters to be resolved but not on what is the resolution being sought.
 
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Without disagreing with anything you said, I still have no clear idea what the offer on the table is. Does it involve transfer of territory? I must point out that your point in trade is over pressed. No body negotiates a part of the country away merely because trade opportunities may be available. I'm not sure you will find many Indian takers for this line. We need to decide what is the "give & take" that you speak out. How much is "give" and what is the "take"?

The offers of transit while welcome (if possible in the circumstances that exists now, both in Pakistan & Afghanistan) are not something that will make India do what it does not feel like. As i said, we need to know the asking price of any deal. You have made general comments on the matters to be resolved but not on what is the resolution being sought.

ok mate ,say if India will be willing then its basically changing the LOC in to an international border but with some compromise in the Kashmir "valley" & siachen glacier "only" & not i repeat "not" the larger laddak ,jammu & leh (thats yours to keep through & through) we are realistic & we acknowledge Indian sensitivities & have kept the subject in the Kashmir "valley" & siachen only & in return you get full fledged unhindered transit through land/rail/air in other words direct connectivity/corridors not only with Afghanistan but also the larger central Asian region & Iran right from the Sindh/Pakistan,Gujarat sector to the Punjab sector to the Kashmir sector, all three entry & exit points with expanded road,rail connectivity,dock stations,dry ports for Indian products & goods plus another of your concern can also be addressed which is no anti Indian activity will be allowed. & you can even get hafez saeed & hang him by the balls if you want, plus you will have a peaceful western border, your western fronts will be friendly & calm, now thats something valuable & all of this for just some compromise that too only in these two sectors namely the "Kashmir valley" & siachen glacier thats all, hey Bangalore common mate be a little bit considered, GOD has given you a'lot of land, such a small compromise wont effect you & your status & you know that very well, but in the bargain ,you will get full connectivity with Afghanistan,CAR'S,Iran it will not only increase your trade & boost your economy but will also enhance your "strategic" clout ! (now that's surely more then just economic & trade) see connectivity through sea is one thing, but direct land connectivity is a "game changer" hey after all this land (present day Pakistan) has been an important part of the "great game" throughout the centuries be it between tsar Russia & the British empire in the 18th century, or U.S & Soviet Union in the 19th century, or NATO/U.S & Russia/China in present day it has its own value & it can accommodate both your economic as well as "strategic" needs, hope that answers your query
 
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say if India will be willing then its basically changing the LOC in to an international border but with some compromise in the Kashmir "valley" & siachen glacier "only" & not i repeat "not" the larger laddak ,jammu & leh (thats yours through & through) in return you get full fledged unhindered transit through land/rail/air in other words direct connectivity not only with Afghanistan but also the larger central Asian region & Iran from right from the Sindh/Rajistan.Gujarat sector to the Punjab sector to the Kashmir sector all three entry & exit points with expanded road,rail connectivity,dock stations,dry ports for Indian products & goods plus no anti Indian activity will be allowed you can even get hafez saeed hang him by the balls if you want, plus you will have a peaceful western border your western fronts will be friendly now thats something valuable all this for just some compromise in the only in "Kashmir valley" & siachen glacier thats all hey Bangalore common mate be a little bit considered, GOD has given you a'lot of land, such a small compromise wont effect you & your status & you know that very well, but in the bargain ,you will get full connectivity with Afghanistan,CAR'S,Iran its will not only increase your trade & boost your economy but will also enhance your "strategic" clout ! see connectivity through sea is one thing, but direct land connectivity is a "game changer" hey after all this land (present day Pakistan) has been an important part of the "great game" throughout the centuries be it between tsar Russia & the British empire in the 18th century, or U.S & Soviet Union in the 19th century, or NATO/U.S & Russia/China in present day it has its own value & it can accommodate both your economic as well as "strategic" needs


I'm a little confused about you suggesting conversion of the LoC to the IB, yet seem to ask India to make some(?) compromises in the valley & Siachen.I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are suggesting India should let go of the valley or part thereof & withdraw from Siachen. If you are talking more autonomy, that can be considered but if you are suggesting outright territory transfer of the valley, I'm afraid that is simply not possible, not for all the trade in the world. The giving up a part that is Muslim majority on the idea that they are incompatible with the state of India is against the very concept of the nation state that our founding fathers sought to create. It will be simply unacceptable & cannot be countenanced. India is a status quo power & while it may be willing to tweak it somewhat, it will never be amenable to the kind of territorial concessions you seem to be suggesting.

Having said this, I'm still not very clear of what exactly you are suggesting. You seem to allude in a particular direction but seem to shy away from making your position clear. In the interests of a discussion, it would be better if we knew what was the specifics being suggested.
 
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ok mate ,say if India will be willing then its basically changing the LOC in to an international border but with some compromise in the Kashmir "valley" & siachen glacier "only" & not i repeat "not" the larger laddak ,jammu & leh (thats yours to keep through & through) we are realistic & we acknowledge Indian sensitivities & have kept the subject in the Kashmir "valley" & siachen only

honestly this is laughable.....

you make it sound as if pakistan is giving us a great concession by "letting" go of jammu and ladakh in lieu of "only" kashmir valley and "only" siachen when in reality it is us who actually control everything now.......in effect you are giving to us something that we already have and to control which we dont need help from pakistan......

in plain speak ur willing to reduce the amount of territory you want from us......dude that is nt a concession on ur part.....that would be a huge backdown on our part.........

and thanks for indian sensitivities......kashmir has no less sensitivity than jammu or ladakh....unless pakistan is willing to barter some territory of equal significance......territory exchange is a non-starter....and political suicide for any Govt even thinking about it......let alone agree to it.....
 
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I'm a little confused about you suggesting conversion of the LoC to the IB, yet seem to ask India to make some(?) compromises in the valley & Siachen.I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are suggesting India should let go of the valley or part thereof & withdraw from Siachen. If you are talking more autonomy, that can be considered but if you are suggesting outright territory transfer of the valley, I'm afraid that is simply not possible, not for all the trade in the world. The giving up a part that is Muslim majority on the idea that they are incompatible with the state of India is against the very concept of the nation state that our founding fathers sought to create. It will be simply unacceptable & cannot be countenanced. India is a status quo power & while it may be willing to tweak it somewhat, it will never be amenable to the kind of territorial concessions you seem to be suggesting.

Having said this, I'm still not very clear of what exactly you are suggesting. You seem to allude in a particular direction but seem to shy away from making your position clear. In the interests of a discussion, it would be better if we knew what was the specifics being suggested.

OK say in siachen a a 60/40 type deal 60 you keep while we get -35-40 % say about 300-400 sq mi area while you keep the rest 900-1000 sq mi , now Kashmir "valley" lets just approach the matter as a dispute based of "water" & not "religion" now say something like this possible scenario six from BBC say a transfer of this area on the basis dispute on "water" resources rather then "religion" as that way India's foundations wont be touched, for eg: since 1 of the 5 river's comes from the valley so say we get that one river while you keep the rest 4 as usual

BBC NEWS

http://individual.utoronto.ca/rahmed/images/Kashmir2.jpg

http://individual.utoronto.ca/rahmed/images/Kashmir1.jpg

& i condemn kargil no seriously mate that was a stupid move, hack even kayani was opposed to it (inside story)

$hit man trust me, you are one heck of a tough negotiator :fie:
 
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now say asking for some 5 to 6 thousand sq mi only out of your 1.2 million & 40,000 sq mi huge country, tell us how can we accommodate your country's needs along with the accommodation that i have already posted in my previous posts , what else can we give , is there something specific your country wants ? if so please feel free to discuss it, since we are already discussing the matter
 
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OK say in siachen a a 60/40 type deal 60 you keep while we get -35-40 % say about 300-400 sq mi area while you keep the rest 900-1000 sq mi , now Kashmir "valley" lets just approach the matter as a dispute based of "water" & not "religion" now say something like this possible scenario six from BBC say a transfer of this area on the basis dispute on "water" resources rather then "religion" as that way India's foundations wont be touched, for eg: since 1 of the 5 river's comes from the valley so say we get that one river while you keep the rest 4 as usual

now say asking for some 5 to 6 thousand sq mi only out of your 1.2 million & 40,000 sq mi huge country, tell us how can we accommodate your country's needs along with the accommodation that i have already posted in my previous posts , what else can we give , is there something specific your country wants ? if so please feel free to discuss it, since we are already discussing the matter

With all due respect to your position, as another poster pointed out,all you are doing is asking India to make actual physical compromises in territory but offering nothing tangible in return. I'm not clear what your basis of such demands are? Why should India give Pakistan territorial concessions while getting vague promises of increased trade (Pakistan serving only as transit)? The only compromises that I see in your demand is a reduction of the Pakistani claim on Kashmir which it is not in a position to secure now. That does not sound logical to me & anyone assuming that India will surrender the valley is simply barking up the wrong tree.

Siachen is even more confusing, there is no way to split it like it is being suggested and more importantly no reason to do so. Is Pakistan willing to hand over parts of the Baltoro glacier, Godwin Austen Glacier to India in return. I don't believe so. Why then should India be willing to cede what it already controls? Territorial concessions cannot happen in a vacuum, you simply cannot expect actual physical concessions from India for a vague promise of improved relations & more trade(which should also be to your interest). It is as I said, expecting something for nothing.



As for what else Pakistan can give, I'm afraid that there is very little that India wants from Pakistan. Indian complaints on terrorism etc cannot be used as blackmail with which to extract actual concessions from India. That carries its own risk anyways.

Imo, there is very little possibility of any direct territorial concession whatsoever by India. The situation on the ground makes it impossible even to contemplate the soft borders (on Kashmir) kind of deal that was being negotiated by Musharraf & MMS since even that will open India up to more terrorist attacks until Pakistan can bring its internal turmoil under control. All that can be done is have greater consultation between the two governments on Kashmir & allow each other some say in the developments of the part administered by the other. Co-operation on water resources is a distinct possibility with Pakistanis engineers/experts jointly monitoring dams in India thereby guaranteeing both peace of mind & faster work on such dams. A reasonable possibility of power generated being shared could also be explored. Even storage dams could be set up or presents dams modified to allow storage (in Indian Kashmir) with the understanding that the bulk of that storage will be used to create a buffer for Pakistan in the lean months to buttress Pakistan's own storage.

if Pakistan wants something to done on Siachen (only emotional reasons exist), Pakistan will have to put up an equivalent part on its side, all the way to K2 in some sort of joint administered mechanism, effectively creating a large buffer of joint control.

The same principle can also be use in specific areas close to the LoC where Pakistanis might have an interest being balanced with Indian access to an equivalent portion, either adjoining the Indian part of interest to Pakistan or elsewhere along the LoC where India has an interest. Mountaineering expeditions can be allowed to either side of the LoC on prepared points. and controlled tourism (at least initially) be opened up on either side of the LoC with foreigners being allowed to cross the LoC easily without having to go on a roundabout route. Indian & Pakistani tourists can slowly follow suit. Once trust is built up & the situation of militancy in Pakistan having improved, we can move to more soft borders and have more joint programs based on the trust created.
 
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With all due respect to your position, as another poster pointed out,all you are doing is asking India to make actual physical compromises in territory but offering nothing tangible in return. I'm not clear what your basis of such demands are? Why should India give Pakistan territorial concessions while getting vague promises of increased trade (Pakistan serving only as transit)? The only compromises that I see in your demand is a reduction of the Pakistani claim on Kashmir which it is not in a position to secure now. That does not sound logical to me & anyone assuming that India will surrender the valley is simply barking up the wrong tree.

Siachen is even more confusing, there is no way to split it like it is being suggested and more importantly no reason to do so. Is Pakistan willing to hand over parts of the Baltoro glacier, Godwin Austen Glacier to India in return. I don't believe so. Why then should India be willing to cede what it already controls? Territorial concessions cannot happen in a vacuum, you simply cannot expect actual physical concessions from India for a vague promise of improved relations & more trade(which should also be to your interest). It is as I said, expecting something for nothing.



As for what else Pakistan can give, I'm afraid that there is very little that India wants from Pakistan. Indian complaints on terrorism etc cannot be used as blackmail with which to extract actual concessions from India. That carries its own risk anyways.

Imo, there is very little possibility of any direct territorial concession whatsoever by India. The situation on the ground makes it impossible even to contemplate the soft borders (on Kashmir) kind of deal that was being negotiated by Musharraf & MMS since even that will open India up to more terrorist attacks until Pakistan can bring its internal turmoil under control. All that can be done is have greater consultation between the two governments on Kashmir & allow each other some say in the developments of the part administered by the other. Co-operation on water resources is a distinct possibility with Pakistanis engineers/experts jointly monitoring dams in India thereby guaranteeing both peace of mind & faster work on such dams. A reasonable possibility of power generated being shared could also be explored. Even storage dams could be set up or presents dams modified to allow storage (in Indian Kashmir) with the understanding that the bulk of that storage will be used to create a buffer for Pakistan in the lean months to buttress Pakistan's own storage.

if Pakistan wants something to done on Siachen (only emotional reasons exist), Pakistan will have to put up an equivalent part on its side, all the way to K2 in some sort of joint administered mechanism, effectively creating a large buffer of joint control.

The same principle can also be use in specific areas close to the LoC where Pakistanis might have an interest being balanced with Indian access to an equivalent portion, either adjoining the Indian part of interest to Pakistan or elsewhere along the LoC where India has an interest. Mountaineering expeditions can be allowed to either side of the LoC on prepared points. and controlled tourism (at least initially) be opened up on either side of the LoC with foreigners being allowed to cross the LoC easily without having to go on a roundabout route. Indian & Pakistani tourists can slowly follow suit. Once trust is built up & the situation of militancy in Pakistan having improved, we can move to more soft borders and have more joint programs based on the trust created.

I understand mate
well @ least we were able discuss a very complex & sensitive subject in a mature & respectful manner while getting to know each others view on the subject, which is not a very common thing here, in fact i think this was one of its own kind of thread on pdf ! & i will request the posters from both the sides to keep it that way

it was a pleasure debating with you

regards
 
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I think US Military on the whole should give away their HUMVEE's to Pakistan Military(Army, Air force, Navy and Para Military) along with some other services and also to Afghan National Army and some more to Iraqi National Force and Police along with some APC from EU Nato countries to be given to us as we need them and they are of no use of NATO as they have developed new ones for them.

From; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humvee

United States – Army: 260,000, Marine Corps: 44,000
So about 70,000 can be given off to Pakistan till 2015....
 
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I don't understand how India can have any substantial influence In afghanistan without the blessing of Pakistan. Afghanistan is land locked and it does not border India. India needs to pass through either Pakistan or china to reach Afghanistan. India is not in good terms with both these countries. India in a way is geographically isolated.

India can not even carry out a simple task of trade with Afghanistan without the help of her neighbours.
I don't understand why Pakistan should fear india's "influence" in Afghanistan, to an extend of damaging it's relation with
Afghanistan.

I can see how, china, Pakistan Iran,central asia and Russia (by passing through central Asia) can influence Afghanistan. But I don"t understand how geographically isolated India would do that.
 
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