The Glory of the Mughal Empire

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

Bro, That's something I've also read and to be honest with you, I've always had this hunch that there's an 'input' in Japan from something 'other'. Is this theory pretty conclusive? The Ainu are graceful people man.

The inner city divided by banners
Accord to Wu Tingkui's book,in 1910,there are 900000 bannermen in Beijing,include the Mongol bannermen 110645 people（22129 families),and the Han bannermen 129540 people(25908 families).
But it's strange now in Beijing the Manchu population only 250000 people,lower than 1910,so it's clearly some Manchus reported themselves as Hans,as we know,after the Qing dynasty,the Manchus didn't move out of Beijing.And the population should increase to 2 million(include the Mongol and Han bannermen),and in 2012,there are 22 million people live in Beijing,so the descendants of bannermen make uo 1/10 of Beijing's population.Based on what I seen in Beijing,it's a realiable number,I cuurent live in Beijing
据吴廷燮等纂《北京市志稿·民政志》卷一“户口”记，宣统二年（1910年）民政部调查京师户口时，京城二十四旗共有正户118783户，其中八旗蒙古共22129户，八旗汉军为25908户，其余为八旗满洲共70746户。另外还有内务府三旗共4571户，京营四郊19处旗人56536户。如果也按每丁眷属为5人推算，应该有旗人人口90万人左右

Well frankly brother, it seems that many Manchu people have assimilated. It makes sense to me. I've read about how the Han in North-east China are genetically different to the ones in Center-east, slightly. There's actually a chart that I came across. Let me find it
Also interesting to see that the Bannermen didn't leave Beijing after the Qing Empire

 

[Aepsilons]

Bro, That's something I've also read and to be honest with you, I've always had this hunch that there's an 'input' in Japan from something 'other'. Is this theory pretty conclusive? The Ainu are graceful people man.

According to genetic tests, the Ainu people belong mainly to Y-DNA haplogroup D2 (a haplogroup that is found uniquely in and frequently throughout Japan including Okinawa with its closest relations being Tibetans and Andaman Islanders in the Indian Ocean). On the paternal side, the vast majority (87.5%) of the Ainu were, according to a 2004 study to be of Asian-specific YAP+ lineages (Y-haplogroups D-M55* and D-M125), that were only distributed in the Japanese Archipelago. The Ainu exhibited no other Y-haplogroups (i.e. none of the common East Asian C-M8, O-M175*, and O-M122* haplogroups) and shared no other Y-DNA in common in mainland Japanese and Okinawans.

According to a 2005 study, haplogroup D originated in Eurasia OR in sub-Saharan Africa, but reached higher frequency outside of Africa and during the human migration out of Africa, and that its emergence coincided with the spread of domestication and emergence of cities from the Middle East. Below is the representation of the evolutionary trail and distribution of the haplogroup D chromosome from the same 2005 study:



According to a study led by Hammer, one of the most useful and widely studied Y-linked polymorphisms is known as the “Y Alu polymorphic” (YAP) element (Hammer 1994). This polymorphism has resulted from the single and stable insertion of a member of the repetitive Alu family at a specific site (locus DYS287) on the long arm of the human Y chromosome during the past 29,000-334,000 years.

The frequency of Y chromosomes carrying the YAP element (YAP+) varies greatly among human populations from different geographic locations: Global surveys have shown that sub-Saharan African populations have the highest overall frequency of YAP chromosomes, followed by populations from northern Africa, Asia, Europe, the New World, and Oceania. However, an intriguing finding by Hammer (1997) that the ancestral YAP haplotype is the Asian haplotype 3 from which other haplotypes 4 and 5 evolved and derived, suggesting the possibility that YAP haplotype 3 originated in Asia and migrated to Africa. This hypothesis is supported by the finding of high frequencies of haplotype 3 in some Asian populations (i.e., -50% in Tibet) and by the observation of higher levels of diversity (based on the number and frequency of alleles at the DYS1 9 microsatellite locus) associated with Asian versus African haplotype 3 chromosomes. Chandrasekhar et al. 2007, have also argued for the Asian origin of the YAP+ on the basis of evidence from the presence of the YAP insertion in Northeast Indian tribes and Andaman Islanders with haplogroup D that suggests that some of the M168 chromosomes gave rise to the YAP insertion and M174 mutation in South Asia. Others such as Underhill and Bravi stand by an African origin for YAP+. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations was alternatively suggested by some (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001) to point to a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia.


@mughal arslan shah mirza , before the Yamato Japanese migrated to Japan via Korea and China, most of Japan , especially Hokkaido, were already inhabited by Ainu. They were one of the earliest colonizers of present day Japan.

 

[sahaliyan]

Bro, That's something I've also read and to be honest with you, I've always had this hunch that there's an 'input' in Japan from something 'other'. Is this theory pretty conclusive? The Ainu are graceful people man.



Well frankly brother, it seems that many Manchu people have assimilated. It makes sense to me. I've read about how the Han in North-east China are genetically different to the ones in Center-east, slightly. There's actually a chart that I came across. Let me find it
Also interesting to see that the Bannermen didn't leave Beijing after the Qing Empire

Only in Beijing,even to the end of ROC(1949),this is still a bannermen majority city.After 1949,however the situation changed,many people moved to Beijing,the bannermen became a minority.and the old Beijing buildings became the tall modern buildings,the traditional Beijing culture disapered.The traditional Beijing people live in the Hutong,have close relation with the neighbours,all dissapered now

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

@mughal arslan shah mirza , before the Yamato Japanese migrated to Japan via Korea and China, most of Japan , especially Hokkaido, were already inhabited by Ainu. They were one of the earliest colonizers of present day Japan.

That's very interesting. Interestingly it might be that the Ainu- Caucasians might have come from West-North Asia (crossing the volga) or maybe they took the sea routes along the coastlines around southeast-Asia

 

[Aepsilons]

Since

That's very interesting. Interestingly it might be that the Ainu- Caucasians might have come from West-North Asia (crossing the volga) or maybe they took the sea routes along the coastlines around southeast-Asia

I'm a proponent of the oceanic route; and the fact that they (Ainu) have genetic markers similar to those of people in South Asia (Caucasoid people) , only reinforces that Ainu are definitely part of the earliest migrants. The proto-mongloids that came to Japan much later by way of China / Korea merely intermingled with the inhabitants. The island of Hokkaido largely remained Ainu until the 17th , 18th century when Japanese started to colonize Hokkaido. This explains why there is a very strong presence of Ainu and Ainu phenotype still in Northern Japan.

 

[sahaliyan]

For more information
Hutong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since the mid-20th century, the number of Beijing hutongs has dropped dramatically as they are demolished to make way for new roads and buildings
The hutongs are residential neighborhoods which still form the heart of Old Beijing

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

Only in Beijing,even to the end of ROC(1949),this is still a bannermen majority city.After 1949,however the situation changed,many people moved to Beijing,the bannermen became a minority.and the old Beijing buildings became the tall modern buildings,the traditional Beijing culture disapered.The traditional Beijing people live in the Hutong,have close relation with the neighbours,all dissapered now

Wow. Who would have thought?

 

[Aepsilons]

For more information
Hutong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since the mid-20th century, the number of Beijing hutongs has dropped dramatically as they are demolished to make way for new roads and buildings
The hutongs are residential neighborhoods which still form the heart of Old Beijing

Interesting.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

Since


I'm a proponent of the oceanic route; and the fact that they (Ainu) have genetic markers similar to those of people in South Asia (Caucasoid people) , only reinforces that Ainu are definitely part of the earliest migrants. The proto-mongloids that came to Japan much later by way of China / Korea merely intermingled with the inhabitants. The island of Hokkaido largely remained Ainu until the 17th , 18th century when Japanese started to colonize Hokkaido. This explains why there is a very strong presence of Ainu and Ainu phenotype still in Northern Japan.

Interesting to see that you've researched about Japanese society and the communities within. It seems though that the Ainu had some population issues. And yeah the sea-route seems more apt to me too.

 

[Aepsilons]

Interesting to see that you've researched about Japanese society and the communities within. It seems though that the Ainu had some population issues. And yeah the sea-route seems more apt to me too.

If Proto-Mongloids such as the Malays from South East Asia can traverse all the ways to Micronesia, Polynesia, as well as to Madagascar, then...then it should be no surprise for proto-Caucasoids from South Asia traversing by sea route to North East Asia.

Its just amazing .... this concept of human population migration.

It seems though that the Ainu had some population issues.

Yes, they are largely very proud people (Ainu). Much of the Japanese national psyche is derived from them. It was the Ainu who referred to the Land as "Land of the Sun". The Yamato people took that and now modern Japanese refer to Japan as "Land of the Rising Sun".

Even the martial tendencies of Japanese; we link that to the Ainu heritage. The reason why the Ainus were capable of resisting colonization for a long time was because of their tenacity.Ainu warriors are extremely brutal and tenacious, as recorded by Japanese historians.

But currently; the numbers are too small. Japanese are numbered at 128 million; and Ainu are only at 200,000. Eventually, when more and more Ainu men marry Yamato women, their children will eventually have the phenotype of the Yamato Japanese.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

If Proto-Mongloids such as the Malays from South East Asia can traverse all the ways to Micronesia, Polynesia, as well as to Madagascar, then...then it should be no surprise for proto-Caucasoids from South Asia traversing by sea route to North East Asia.

Its just amazing .... this concept of human population migration.

Agreed. Academically speaking though, Is this theory of proto-caucasoids taking the sea-routes to Japan THE MOST PROMINENT? What about other ones? Is there disussion in Japan over this? I wonder what the 'folk tales' or 'folk myths' of Ainu say about this.

Yes, they are largely very proud people (Ainu). Much of the Japanese national psyche is derived from them. It was the Ainu who referred to the Land as "Land of the Sun". The Yamato people took that and now modern Japanese refer to Japan as "Land of the Rising Sun".

Even the martial tendencies of Japanese; we link that to the Ainu heritage. The reason why the Ainus were capable of resisting colonization for a long time was because of their tenacity.Ainu warriors are extremely brutal and tenacious, as recorded by Japanese historians.

But currently; the numbers are too small. Japanese are numbered at 128 million; and Ainu are only at 200,000. Eventually, when more and more Ainu men marry Yamato women, their children will eventually have the phenotype of the Yamato Japanese.

Wow. Mind-blowing. Are there movies that deal with the glorious Ainu (with English sub-titles)

@sahaliyan
Brother, you should suggest some movies that depict the story of Manchus or Qing China. Do you know any? (with English sub-titles)

I've come across one movie but it's in Korean language

 

[Aepsilons]

Agreed. Academically speaking though, Is this theory of proto-caucasoids taking the sea-routes to Japan THE MOST PROMINENT? What about other ones? Is there disussion in Japan over this? I wonder what the 'folk tales' or 'folk myths' of Ainu say about this.

When I was younger, I would spend my summer with my grandfather and his famiy, who were pure Ainu. I appreciated the religious folklore of the Ainu, which claim that the world was created when the gods (kami) rained forth water to the world. The Ainu people floated on oil until they landed on the Land that was far north. So far north that they (Ainu) refer to the land as "Land of the Sun". This emphasizes a water route to Japan; perhaps it reflects back to the oceanic route of the earliest colonizers.

There is a very beautiful Ainu Poem that goes like this:

Siro ka nipee ran ran pis kan

kon ka nipee ran ran pis kan

Translation:

The silver rain falls to the earth , the silver drops fall

The fall of golden drops of heaven, fall to the ground

--

This poem refers to creation myth of the rain, and the water being an important part of Ainu myth and lore.

 

[Roybot]

I would like to quote Machiavelli here. He says that wars fought for ideological reasons are very destructive because participants are not interested in material gains. On the other hand wars fought for material gains are not much destructive since the objective is materialistic.

You are airing your prejudices and you seem to have little idea about not only the history of Mughals but also the period preceding them. Babur was certainly not a barbarian. He was well-educated. He was an accomplished ruler. He was the finest Turkish poet of his age. He was also an accomplished Persian poet and prose-writer. His book Tuzk-e-Babri is a masterpiece that is necessary reading for historians. His ancestors were kings back to nine generations on Mother's side and five generations on Father's side. I do not know how you can call him a barbarian.

I can simply tell you that you can not argue against success. There were reasons why Babur was able to conquer so much so well. He had a hell of a time as a wandering prince and yet thrice he built his kingdom from nothing. Your prejudices do not allow you to see beyond local issues and myths.

You don't actually believe that do you? Its like Kim Jong Un writing his autobiography and claiming to be best at everything, and North Koreans believing it . When you are a King, you can be anything, and no on one would dare question you.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

@Nihonjin1051

Bro, that's a pretty deep cultural connection. The poem's wonderful. And yeah if it's so explicitly being mentioned in the folk-lore than there's HAS to be connectivity when it comes to the Genesis of the proud Ainu people.

 

[Aepsilons]

@Nihonjin1051

Bro, that's a pretty deep cultural connection. The poem's wonderful. And yeah if it's so explicitly being mentioned in the folk-lore than there's HAS to be connectivity when it comes to the Genesis of the proud Ainu people.

To be honest, i never even knew Ainu had south asian genetic markers until i read into the genetic studies when i was in college. It makes me have a fondness for South Asian cultures and history, bro. In some way, we are ...related. lol .